Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[magnuskn]

Best one you could get, anyway.

[justavisitor]

no lol, Sheryl was so close to death there...had Ranka did not suddenly learn magic in ep 25 ...if fact, I thought Sheryl fans would like the ending just because Sheryl's sickness got magically cured at the end

Kidding aside, I really enjoyed the ending...awesome battles scenes, plenty of touching moment/action that makes my blood boil (hmm damn can't think of a better term XD), every one is ok at the end and a new start for every character...a solid ending I would think

Now, the only loser is Micheal...he just has to die in order to fit the classic plot of a war drama

[magnuskn]

As I said some times before, Ranka conceding in the end would have helped her character immensely. As for Michael, they corrected their mistake in the movie. Although his death scene was very powerful and well written.

[justavisitor]

you and I will always have different opinion regrading to Ranka...so I will rather not discuss it again for the n times...getting too old to write long post ..

About micheal, I thought he might die "again" in the second movie, so we will have to wait and see

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

As I said some times before, Ranka conceding in the end would have helped her character immensely. As for Michael, they corrected their mistake in the movie. Although his death scene was very powerful and well written.

If anything Ranka got shafted the worst in the TV series, There would need to be alot more development then that to fully help her character though .

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

If anything Ranka got shafted the worst in the TV series, There would need to be alot more development then that to fully help her character though .

Conceding in the end, instead of issueing that silly challenge, would have elevated her by showing that she finally had grown up enough to see beyond her own nose and was gracious enough to not pursue her hopeless pursuit of Alto.

It certainly would have managed to salvage Ranka as a character, since it would have showed that even the most immature and egoistic people can finally grow up. As it was, it was a terrible ending for Rankas character arc, since it left her almost as in the beginning. Just as self-centered, just not as shy. Not the best character evolution, if you ask me.

[raeryne]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Conceding in the end, instead of issueing that silly challenge, would have elevated her by showing that she finally had grown up enough to see beyond her own nose and was gracious enough to not pursue her hopeless pursuit of Alto.

It certainly would have managed to salvage Ranka as a character, since it would have showed that even the most immature and egoistic people can finally grow up. As it was, it was a terrible ending for Rankas character arc, since it left her almost as in the beginning. Just as self-centered, just not as shy. Not the best character evolution, if you ask me.

I don't think Ranka is egoistic, but yeah, she was VERY immature...still, we could look at it that the challenge shows her determination to fight for Alto(?)... I think it's a tiny bit of maturation...(this is just to be fair to Ranka...)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by raeryne

I don't think Ranka is egoistic, but yeah, she was VERY immature...still, we could look at it that the challenge shows her determination to fight for Alto(?)... I think it's a tiny bit of maturation...(this is just to be fair to Ranka...)

Ranka was shown to be very self-centered during the whole show. She bothered to try to get to know Alto only when she was leaving Frontier with Ai-kun. She refused to sing for the mourning populace of Frontier. It was always about her, she was never shown to care much about other people than herself and her nearest and dearest.

And her issueing that challenge is another instance of being too self-centered to see what was happening right before her eyes.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Ranka was shown to be very self-centered during the whole show. She bothered to try to get to know Alto only when she was leaving Frontier with Ai-kun. She refused to sing for the mourning populace of Frontier. It was always about her, she was never shown to care much about other people than herself and her nearest and dearest.

And her issueing that challenge is another instance of being too self-centered to see what was happening right before her eyes.

I don't even think her "nearest and dearest" were much of a factor for her either, remember episodes 20 and 21? There were stunts that she pulled on Alto no less, she treated him horribly. Everyone around her were just stepping stones.

And considering that Sheryl and Alto are living together, and with Sheryl has met Alto's family, knows his friends, etc... Ranka trying to insert herself into that relationship, would make her akin to a home wrecker, and with her personality, and her brothers the chances of her being successful at that are slim to none. Also when you consider that Ranka's only reason for liking Alto is because "he looks like a princess" then it just puts her standing into perspective.

[KaoruLia]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And her issueing that challenge is another instance of being too self-centered to see what was happening right before her eyes.

That's absolutely true.

(...sadly to say, even though I love Ranka. I mean, it's totally okay to like her, but I get annoyed when people don't acknowledge her flaws and still think that she's a perfect little angel. I mean, Grace fanboys don't try to argue her evil intentions, Sheryl fanboys do admit that she was bitchy in the beginning, and Alto fangirls are always bashing him for being indecisive, no? So what's wrong with accepting that Ranka is a heavily-flawed character?)

Even Michel called her out for being 'spoiled' in the Star Date episode. There, proof in front of your eyes...

Well, they did fix her a little in the movie (from what I heard from happy Ranka fans), so there's hope for a better Ranka character development in the second one.

Originally Posted by wisteria223

and her brothers

Oh god, I think I LOL-ed hard at this one. If you consider Alto as her surrogate brother, she has like... 3 now?

One adoptive brother = Ozma
One biological brother = Brera
One surrogate brother = Alto

Her problem is that she's way too overprotected. Like a princess dreaming away in her tower, with loyal knights guarding her from below. That's one of the reasons why she's so immature really. When Ozma decided to let her go, she falls into the arms of Brera instead. If she wins Alto in the LT, it'll just be another transition to another protective 'brother', without her knowing how to deal with the world on her own.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

That's absolutely true.

(...sadly to say, even though I love Ranka. I mean, it's totally okay to like her, but I get annoyed when people don't acknowledge her flaws and still think that she's a perfect little angel. I mean, Grace fanboys don't try to argue her evil intentions, Sheryl fanboys do admit that she was bitchy in the beginning, and Alto fangirls are always bashing him for being indecisive, no? So what's wrong with accepting that Ranka is a heavily-flawed character?)

Even Michel called her out for being 'spoiled' in the Star Date episode. There, proof in front of your eyes...

That observation is very much true.

Sheryl has a lot of flaws, and if there is one thing you can say about her fans, is that they don't ignore it, or pretend it doesn't exist. In fact there are usually the first people to acknowledge her flaws. Grace fanboys pretty much let you know that Grace is horrible person (we are starting to find out that she has her reasons, but still). Alto fangirls will point out Alto's negative aspects, in fact you can say that about all the character fanboys/girls except Ranka fangirls/boys. They have a habit of not only admitting to that character's flaws, but also pointing out others that you yourself may not have noticed.

Ranka fans on a whole get incredibly defensive on on occasion somewhat delusional when it comes to her character. I think that was part of the reason why the whole "Ranka goggles" stigma was created. It really doesn't help that they (well the male fans anyway) try to justify it by her age, and quite frankly it just doesn't fly. Trust me I'm a woman and I've been sixteen before and believe me that no girl that I've ever met has behaved like that, but I've met fourteen and twelve year olds that have. Or that the only reason they give for liking her are She's so moe, or she's so cute, or she's so innocent...how can you not like her? Or when you make a good point many of them then will start playing victim, even they're the ones who start the discussion, and you're not insulting them.

I think its also worth noting that many of Ranka's fans stop supporting her after realizing that she wasn't growing as a character.

Well, they did fix her a little in the movie (from what I heard from happy Ranka fans), so there's hope for a better Ranka character development in the second one.

Well she's already owned up to the fact that people did die when she sang, which already puts her above the level of her tv counterpart. I think that its also interesting that movie Sheryl has the same as powers as Ranka and yet is very responsible with them. Considering that a lot of Ranka fans used to say that if Sheryl had the same powers she would behave like Ranka, and yet this movie shows up and proves them wrong. Ranka's also not the main focus of the movie, which again works in her favor, because part of the reason why her flaws were so obvious in the tv series, is because she had the most screen time. And her abundance of screen time made her flaws stand out more, especially since she effected the plot.

Oh god, I think I LOL-ed hard at this one. If you consider Alto as her surrogate brother, she has like... 3 now?

One adoptive brother = Ozma
One biological brother = Brera
One surrogate brother = Alto

When I first saw the picture of Alto and Ranka I thought that he was her brother. The tv series didn't help matters much by basically bashing you over the head with their similarities, with all of them basically serving same role to her. She jumped from one to another based on who would what she wanted.

Her problem is that she's way too overprotected. Like a princess dreaming away in her tower, with loyal knights guarding her from below. That's one of the reasons why she's so immature really. When Ozma decided to let her go, she falls into the arms of Brera instead. If she wins Alto in the LT, it'll just be another transition to another protective 'brother', without her knowing how to deal with the world on her own.

That's one of the reasons I gave for not supporting Alto with Ranka, along with the fact that Ranka is just too selfish and too immature to begin a relationship with anyone. If finding out the guy she had a crush on (and didn't put any effort into) likes someone else makes her want to die, then how will she deal with any real problems.

I once said that her and Sheryl had two opposite problems Sheryl had learn how to rely on people, and Ranka had to learn to be independent. And now that I'm re-watching the series I realize that Ranka has never done anything on her own. She's never made it with her own skill, all of it was luck, or the convenience of the plot.

[KaoruLia]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I think its also worth noting that many of Ranka's fans stop supporting her after realizing that she wasn't growing as a character.

Ah that was a bit too harsh for the little Ranka fan in me Sometimes we can't help liking a certain character, even with their faults and all --

I think this is similar to Minmay's case, where there are still Minmay fans around, but they don't defend her in the entirety because it's common knowledge that she was a bitch in SDFM (Yeah, who the hell can turn a blind eye to her actions??). They've probably given up on defending her, because they have resigned to the fact that there will always be Minmay hate as long as there are new fans into the franchise.

I'm sure there are Ranka fans around, but they don't appear much because of the amount of hate she gets. I'm sure they're tired of constantly defending and debating Ranka's character everywhere. But I guess it can't be helped. It's part of the package of being a Ranka fan, sorry to say

Well she's already owned up to the fact that people did die when she sang, which already puts her above the level of her tv counterpart. I think that its also interesting that movie Sheryl has the same as powers as Ranka and yet is very responsible with them. Considering that a lot of Ranka fans used to say that if Sheryl had the same powers she would behave like Ranka, and yet this movie shows up and proves them wrong. Ranka's also not the main focus of the movie, which again works in her favor, because part of the reason why her flaws were so obvious in the tv series, is because she had the most screen time. And her abundance of screen time made her flaws stand out more, especially since she effected the plot.

I've nothing much to comment about that, but since we had a Sheryl-centric first movie, I'm hoping the second movie pulls another DYRL and concentrate on Ranka much more. Because if they want us to take that 'Perfect Triangle' claim seriously, they better make Ranka on the same standing as Sheryl. (Of course, I'm hoping that the perfect triangle is just about the character influences on each other, and not indicative of relationships. I want a Sheryl end, please thank you? )

That's one of the reasons I gave for not supporting Alto with Ranka, along with the fact that Ranka is just too selfish and too immature to begin a relationship with anyone. If finding out the guy she had a crush on (and didn't put any effort into) likes someone else makes her want to die, then how will she deal with any real problems.

Hmm... a lot of people compare Ranka with Sheryl, about how Ranka is not suited for Alto and such. Of course, it's understandable because that's how the character interactions have been set-up -- but no one stopped to think about whether ALTO is suited for Ranka or not. Both of them are not suited for each other, as hinted in episode 21. The reason why the whole fiasco happened with Brera, Ai-kun, and Ranka's elopement was because Alto didn't understand her enough, and Ranka never bothered to understand Alto herself. Yeah they inspired each other to reach out for the goals but ultimately it wasn't healthy for both of them in the long run. Ranka developed dependency on Alto, and Alto used Ranka's need of protection to 'run' away from his past/daddy issues. If you compare Brera with Alto, I think that Brera's the better guy for her, even as just a brother.

[Der Langrisser]

I remember when I saw the first episode, I thought the Triangle would be Sheryl and Cathy.
When I heard it was going to be between Sheryl and Ranka, I've mentally said a big WTF ?

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

Ah that was a bit too harsh for the little Ranka fan in me Sometimes we can't help liking a certain character, even with their faults and all --

I think this is similar to Minmay's case, where there are still Minmay fans around, but they don't defend her in the entirety because it's common knowledge that she was a bitch in SDFM (Yeah, who the hell can turn a blind eye to her actions??). They've probably given up on defending her, because they have resigned to the fact that there will always be Minmay hate as long as there are new fans into the franchise.

I think a vast majority of Minmei fans are also aware of Minmei's faults, and have a tendency to not argue with everyone who brings it up. In their case its more of an acceptance of the fact that their favorite SDF character is not without her faults. The also don't try to demonize other characters in order to make Minmei seem seem innocent. Heck Minmei is my favorite SDF character and even I can admit to the fact that she was pretty selfish during the series.

I'm sure there are Ranka fans around, but they don't appear much because of the amount of hate she gets. I'm sure they're tired of constantly defending and debating Ranka's character everywhere. But I guess it can't be helped. It's part of the package of being a Ranka fan, sorry to say

There are a lot of Ranka fans still around, the problem is is that not even a handful of them can come up with a coherent debate that won't be based heavily on opinion and interpretation. They mostly hang around in areas where there is a large concentration of Shoujo fans

I've nothing much to comment about that, but since we had a Sheryl-centric first movie, I'm hoping the second movie pulls another DYRL and concentrate on Ranka much more. Because if they want us to take that 'Perfect Triangle' claim seriously, they better make Ranka on the same standing as Sheryl. (Of course, I'm hoping that the perfect triangle is just about the character influences on each other, and not indicative of relationships. I want a Sheryl end, please thank you? )

Actually, I think that's why they changed the relationship between Alto and Ranka so that they'd be friends before the beginning of the movie, so that Ranka could get a head start with the love triangle. And so that she would at least know Alto as a person first, seeing as though Ranka was not on even ground with Sheryl during the series(when they both met him at about the same time). Although they should probably start by making Alto seem interested a little in Ranka in the official art, even in the poster made as an homage to DYRL Alto's arms were not around Ranka,(he wasn't even looking at her).

Hmm... a lot of people compare Ranka with Sheryl, about how Ranka is not suited for Alto and such. Of course, it's understandable because that's how the character interactions have been set-up -- but no one stopped to think about whether ALTO is suited for Ranka or not. Both of them are not suited for each other, as hinted in episode 21. The reason why the whole fiasco happened with Brera, Ai-kun, and Ranka's elopement was because Alto didn't understand her enough, and Ranka never bothered to understand Alto herself. Yeah they inspired each other to reach out for the goals but ultimately it wasn't healthy for both of them in the long run. Ranka developed dependency on Alto, and Alto used Ranka's need of protection to 'run' away from his past/daddy issues. If you compare Brera with Alto, I think that Brera's the better guy for her, even as just a brother.

I actually like comparing Ranka to Minmei more seeing as though they have a little more in common.

I think a lot of Alto fans actually do think about that, that's why the vast majority of them actually don't support Alto with Ranka. I remember that they were one of the first people to speak against Alto with Ranka. Ranka is really unsuited for Alto, though you could tell as much from looking at their star signs (Alto is a Leo, Sheryl is a Sagittarius, and Ranka is a Taurus, and apparently a Taurus and Leo are a horrible match, but a Sagittarius and a Leo are perfect for each other. Considering that anime character in general are always given significant birthdays, and corresponding star signs, this is probably not a fluke. What is interesting is that Alto really wasn't interested in Ranka like that, and the fact that he knew that she liked him and yet chose to ignore it attests to this fact ( you don't choose to ignore the fact that someone likes you when you like them back, unless you're not that interested in them.)

[raeryne]

The love triangle thing has really caught everyone's attention, hasn't it?We all want it to be resolved...don't we?

So why can't the animators/script writers feel the same way?WHY?!

[Der Langrisser]

Probably because they want the fans to go see the movie, hoping to see the resolution of the Triangle.
There'll probably much less interest in the movie, if they've resolved at the end of the series.
In short, a diabolical and effective way to milk more cash from the fans.

[raeryne]

Originally Posted by Der Langrisser

Probably because they want the fans to go see the movie, hoping to see the resolution of the Triangle.
There'll probably much less interest in the movie, if they've resolved at the end of the series.
In short, a diabolical and effective way to milk more cash from the fans.

Well, if they did end the series with Sheryl/Alto...I'd still want to see the movie, though...

milk more money, huh?I guess everything boils down to that...Oh those heartless people!(haha,over-dramatic moment...)

[Der Langrisser]

It is the Way of the Money : deprive the fans of what they want, while letting dangling in front of them the possibility they'll have what they want, as long as it could.

[raile]

Originally Posted by Der Langrisser

I remember when I saw the first episode, I thought the Triangle would be Sheryl and Cathy.
When I heard it was going to be between Sheryl and Ranka, I've mentally said a big WTF ?

LOL. Big LOL.
I'll admit in the first episode (the deculture one with no OP), I neither liked Ranka or Sheryl but I thought Cathy was pretty awesome.
I also thought she'd be Sheryl's rival, after watching Cathy put up with Sheryl's early arrogance, pulling her out from the stage and then escorting her to the limousine, etc.

When I found out it was going to be Ranka, I was pretty surprised, I had only thought she would play the little sister role or something. XD

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

They have a habit of not only admitting to that character's flaws, but also pointing out others that you yourself may not have noticed.

Something I noticed today when thinking about Justavisitor pointing out that Ranka could have not saved Sheryl from her disease. The problem with that being a.) what would have been the consequence of that ( Grace wins, everybody on Frontier dies ) and b.) what kind of person would have that made Ranka?

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I once said that her and Sheryl had two opposite problems Sheryl had learn how to rely on people, and Ranka had to learn to be independent. And now that I'm re-watching the series I realize that Ranka has never done anything on her own. She's never made it with her own skill, all of it was luck, or the convenience of the plot.

Indeed. Which is why her moving on with her life at the end of the series would have been a huge step for her, claiming her independece. But it was not to be.

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

Hmm... a lot of people compare Ranka with Sheryl, about how Ranka is not suited for Alto and such. Of course, it's understandable because that's how the character interactions have been set-up -- but no one stopped to think about whether ALTO is suited for Ranka or not. Both of them are not suited for each other, as hinted in episode 21. The reason why the whole fiasco happened with Brera, Ai-kun, and Ranka's elopement was because Alto didn't understand her enough, and Ranka never bothered to understand Alto herself. Yeah they inspired each other to reach out for the goals but ultimately it wasn't healthy for both of them in the long run. Ranka developed dependency on Alto, and Alto used Ranka's need of protection to 'run' away from his past/daddy issues. If you compare Brera with Alto, I think that Brera's the better guy for her, even as just a brother.

My line of thinking in regards to Alto is more along the lines that he was *trying* to be the protective elder brother, but couldn't fill that role. Partly due to being outstaged by Brera at every turn, partly because he needed someone less aquiescent to his own personality than Ranka was.

Another very important aspect to that is that Altos character did evolve during the series. While in the beginning he was relying on Ranka to fill his need to be a "protector" and have a purpose, his evolution into a much more mature person than the constantly beligerent one he was at the beginning, saw him abandon that narrow focus for trying to be a guardian for everyone on Frontier, not only the people nearest to him.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I think a lot of Alto fans actually do think about that, that's why the vast majority of them actually don't support Alto with Ranka. I remember that they were one of the first people to speak against Alto with Ranka. Ranka is really unsuited for Alto, though you could tell as much from looking at their star signs (Alto is a Leo, Sheryl is a Sagittarius, and Ranka is a Taurus, and apparently a Taurus and Leo are a horrible match, but a Sagittarius and a Leo are perfect for each other. Considering that anime character in general are always given significant birthdays, and corresponding star signs, this is probably not a fluke. What is interesting is that Alto really wasn't interested in Ranka like that, and the fact that he knew that she liked him and yet chose to ignore it attests to this fact ( you don't choose to ignore the fact that someone who likes when you like them back, unless you're not that interested in them.)

Yeah, hoping that it will pass and she'll focus her attention elsewhere. Which actually can lead to the person who is crushing becoming even more interested and becoming unhealthily obsessed.

Originally Posted by Der Langrisser

It is the Way of the Money : deprive the fans of what they want, while letting dangling in front of them the possibility they'll have what they want, as long as it could.

Only that this approach has the danger of the creators dangling that carrot too long and the fans becoming bitter and angry.