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View Poll Results: Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 21 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 11 | 25.00% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 18 | 40.91% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 10 | 22.73% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 4 | 9.09% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 2.27% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll |
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2007-09-09, 13:11 | Link #441 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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Spoiler for Episode 22-23:
The numbers don't need to be dealt with immediately. They're not in range to do any damage. Quote:
However if protecting every single individual civilian life is as important as Proto suggests, then sending all available forces to the Cradle is exactly what he should be advocating as practically all of the civilians that are in immediate danger are in the Midchilda Capital.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-09-09 at 13:27. |
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2007-09-09, 13:43 | Link #442 | |||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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If we categorize by threats, then forces are spread according to threat level. Not equally. The Cradle is the most obvious threat, and has two out of three Aces assigned to it plus one if the Wolkenritter. Scagliethi's lab is an unknown factor, and one of the Aces was dispatched to aid the comrades that were in trouble there (both of which aren't exactly wusses themselves). The enemies going for HQ are at the moment the lowest priority threat, but still need to be dealt with. Signum guarded the skies, while the forwards dealt with the sentoukijin. From a tactical point of view, I fail to see the errors. |
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2007-09-09, 14:10 | Link #443 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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The fact though is that it didn't work and it tied up Signum from helping with the other two objectives. If they anticipated that Signum couldn't stop him, then they shouldn't have sent her there. If the plan was to actually stop Zest, then they could have committed more resources to the defense.
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If you really want to deal with the numbers, then the Aces could have been dropped off instead of the forwards and beat them faster, the forwards would still be fresh and victory there would be all but guaranteed. The Aces are the greatest concentration of mobility and firepower in RF6. Why not take advantage of that? Quote:
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You honestly don't think having a third body inside the Cradle would have helped? Someone to watch Vita's back perhaps? You don't think that trying to secure everywhere is a tactical error? Particularly when those areas are not even being secured adequately and tying up critical resources anyways? You don't think a complete lack of credible, timely reserves is a tactical error? You don't think that abandoning the Aces superior mobility when it could be used to achieve tactical surprise and concentration is a tactical error? Just how badly does RF6 need to screw up for it to be considered to have committed a tactical error?
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2007-09-09, 14:45 | Link #444 | |||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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You seem to be working with hindsight. Wonderfull thing, hindsight, but you can't work with hindsight when the crisis that needs it is now.
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Any enemy is a definite threat. Any enemy headed for your base is a definite urgent threat. Quote:
B: They don't have the time to play cat-and-mouse games. You can't simply say 'we'll send our powerfull force to play cat-and-mouse with the enemies heading for our base' why? because the enemy could just as easilly tie up the Aces for hours by simply playing that cat-and-mouse game. That is a glarring error staring right there. Seems like you're the one making the tactical mistakes now. Quote:
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Sarcasm aside, the enemy base was found then and had to be dealt with there and then. You can't just leave the enemy base alone just because there is another threat flying around. Quote:
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Signum lost, yes, but like I said, even the most perfect of plans can fail if the dice rolls wrong. The plan was that Signum stops Zest, had it been succesfull then that would have solved yet another problem. Unfortunately, there was still Due, but she was a factor the TSAB neother knew about nor could take into the equotation. Quote:
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In fact, there were several tactical errors on your side of the planning. Most of all that you plan with hindsight. The TSAB didn't know Signum would lose to Zest, they didn't know where the reactor and throne were located, they didn't know Due even existed, much less in the middle of their base, they didn't know a lot of things, and you can't plan for something you don't know. |
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2007-09-09, 15:44 | Link #445 | |||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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If the numbers dissipate their forces before contact is made to play cat and mouse games then the Aces can simply keep heading towards Jail's lab and the Cradle and they'll have delayed the numbers from getting to the Ground Force HQ as it'll take time for the numbers to reassemble. Quote:
Hindsight again. They know that Vivio is the key to the Cradle. They don't know if rescuing her will disable the ship. On the other hand, they know where they can disable the engines but of their capable mages, they've sent only Vita out of all of RF6. Quote:
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You haven't answered how abandoning maneuver, mass, economy of force, simplicity, security and surprise is not a gross planning failure. Before you say it, splitting up your forces and ensuring that each force has enough combat power to win, is far more complex than concentrating your forces, even with perfect intelligence. Quote:
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2007-09-09, 16:28 | Link #446 | |||||||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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When Jail was not intent on blowing up the world, yes. Quote:
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Which screams 'come attack me' frankly, I'd laugh at the idiot who would fall for such an obvious trap. Quote:
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Me and my friends have a nack for spotting security holes in areas. If you give us a spot where you neglect security, you can count on it that we will be exploiting that area to our full abillities. So no, trying to be secure in all areas is never a tactical mistake. |
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2007-09-09, 20:34 | Link #447 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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One night, and so much to catch up on...
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1) The operational goal is entirely different. In C&C, the only operational objective is to keep the base. 2) I presume that while he lost, at least he took out your Ion Cannon. Have you considered that maybe if he tried to "play it safer" he might have lost the base and failed to knock out your ion cannon. How this is a superior ending is beyond me. To refine your analogy. Your opponent has say 10 bases instead of one. The Ion Cannon can threaten all his bases simultaneously, while the remainder of your forces can threaten only one base. Assume that you lose in C&C if you lose that Ion Cannon, while he loses only if he loses all ten bases. Does that affect your calculation? |
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2007-09-09, 20:40 | Link #448 |
Knowledge is the solution
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 39
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The difference is that that one single, central enemy base we are talking about is the TSAB capital. Political center of the TSAB, losing the Midchilda capital (as with any nation which loses its political centre) would lead to great political and economical turmoil, which might even result into the disintegration of the TSAB into a pre-3-admirals like state. As you said, you have to look things into the greater scale, not just the immediate treat. We are not talking about any minor world. We are talking about th3 capital world after all.
Does it hurts really that much to send 3 B 1 C ranked mage to do what they were trained to do? Base infiltration require different tactics than city defense after all. Yeah, it would be even better for the Aces to help with a napalm barrage and then just deploy the forwards to finish the job though. |
2007-09-09, 21:54 | Link #449 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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I would suggest moving our discussion regarding military planning to the Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series. Hopefully people will have other things to discuss about episode 21 now that the subs are out.
Arkhangelsk has posted a reply to your last post there, Keroko. He's done a pretty good job of covering what I would have said, although I have a slightly different bent on military doctrine. Feel free to join us there grey moon
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2007-09-09, 22:00 | Link #450 |
Yummy, sweet and unyuu!!!
Join Date: Dec 2004
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@Mirificus - Hee hee will do . I believe the lack of resources should be blamed on the Ground Force general (can't remember his name), not on RF6. I read it as a part of the reason why RF6 was created by the TSA and the Church was to counter the political actions of the general.
@Keroko - That is one of my favourite tactics in C&C Generals, build a perceived threat (which is ofc really is a threat), then smack them from several sides as they start scampering to neutralise it. I'm a great believer in split force tactics, I love fighting from multiple sides and I normally attack with several battalions, that way when one takes damage, the reserves can take over whilst they recover or more importantly if I deem necessary I can send the whole lot in to finish them. I have to say I totally agree with Keroko's point about hindsight. For instance: At what point was the danger of the Cradle actually known and specifically that it needs to reach orbit? At what point did they realise that inside all the strategic areas had AMF fields which hindered all their recently unlocked captains? At what point did they know that the forwards instead of fighting 3 combat cyborgs would be fighting 5 and a summoner with her kick arse melee familiar? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but in terms of tactics, it is great to say what RF6 (aka Hayate) should have done, but in the end there was just too much stacked against her. I won't go into the Zest rnd 2 in this thread, but I'll take that one to the epi 22 one
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Last edited by grey_moon; 2007-09-09 at 22:13. |
2007-09-14, 11:20 | Link #455 |
Part-time misanthrope
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Actually there is a little translation error in the fansubs, dont know if that already has been mentioned already:
At 15:11 Vita and Eisen launch their attack translated as Swallow flier, german "Schwalbe fliegen." However Eisen says "Komet fliegen", what would be translated as Comet flier. I doesnt bother me much since its basically the same attack, just with one large ball insted of 8 small ones. |
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