Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[willyvereb]

Yeah in that dream, actually Rider casted an illusion on him while uhm...served herself and did the prana-recharge with Shirou.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

Rin's eyes are Rider's, if I recall.

So that's where one should look at during that scene. My bad.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Just to be sure we're thinking of the same thing... Realta Nua added a scene called 'Last Episode' that takes place after the ending of 'Fate'. The gist of it (as far as I understand; it's written by Nasu, after all, so...) is that after Saber goes back to her own time, she is placed into eternal slumber as in the legend of King Arther. Shirou, in turn, goes on to, if not actually become Archer, then at least have a very similar life. In spite of this, they never forget about each other; she never stops waiting for him, and he never stops pursuing her, and in the end they're rewarded for their devotion by being reunited in Avalon.

It's incredibly touching. Saber actually cries tears of joy, and well, it was hard not to join her.

Okay, I did not see that one. But that is a nice ending too.

I have a very hard time seeing it as a Good Ending (and indeed, it's not. Just like Sakura's, it's called a True End). I mean, yes, Saber got to die peacefully and Shirou moves on with his life... but I really do have a hard time seeing any ending where two people fall in love only to be separated mere days later as anything resembling 'happy'. HF Normal ending is worse, granted, but Fate's True Ending is not exactly a barrel of cheer and I'm glad that Realta Nua changed it.

Fate was a bitter sweet ending. It was sad that they had to say good bye to each other, but they both had the experience of loving each other. Saber learned what it was to be a real person, a real girl.

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Someone mentioned Shirou filling magic for Rider. When did that happen? I played through both ending of HF, but I don't think I have seen an H-scene with Rider involved. By the way, in HF there was this strange dream sequence with Rin seducing Shirou in the classroom. Should I take it at face value, or is there something hiding behind this?

Yeah, you totally answered your own question there.

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

So that's where one should look at during that scene. My bad.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

I have a very hard time seeing it as a Good Ending (and indeed, it's not. Just like Sakura's, it's called a True End). I mean, yes, Saber got to die peacefully and Shirou moves on with his life... but I really do have a hard time seeing any ending where two people fall in love only to be separated mere days later as anything resembling 'happy'. HF Normal ending is worse, granted, but Fate's True Ending is not exactly a barrel of cheer and I'm glad that Realta Nua changed it.

Well, you're right that it's not the happiest of endings, but it's not bad either. HF Normal is on another level entirely. And, really, any ending other than HF True is a worse ending for Sakura than any ending other than maybe the HF endings are for Saber, so....

Plus, Saber does get a happy ending. It's just not in her route.

[DragoZERO]

Okay. I was just collecting my tiger stamps and I saw my mistake. UBW has a good and true end while HF has a normal and true (with Fate only having a true).

And in one of the dead ends (in Fate when Shirou is fighting Shinji in the blood fort) Rider sucks his blood to absorb his soul and energy.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Yeah, you totally answered your own question there.

I played for 2 or 3 days to finish both the UBW route and the HF route. At the end I was to exhausted to even think. I always felt that scene to be suspicious, but I never made the connection.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

I played for 2 or 3 days to finish both the UBW route and the HF route. At the end I was to exhausted to even think. I always felt that scene to be suspicious, but I never made the connection.

Yeah, I rushed and missed a lot. I am reading on some sites and they are mentioning stuff that I don't know if I forgot, overlooked, or something. I might have to play it all again in the near future, but slowly, lol.

[Moczo]

I'm running through Fate again right now... it's been so long, I'd forgotten how much fun it is to tease Saber. 'Can you teach me a super move for beating Servants?' indeed!

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

I'm running through Fate again right now... it's been so long, I'd forgotten how much fun it is to tease Saber. 'Can you teach me a super move for beating Servants?' indeed!

Hahahah. I'm doing all of the scenes that I missed the first go through (as I get the Tiger Stamps) and I just did that one. It was quite funny. Some of the Tiger Dojos are good too. I like how in one Taiga tells Illya she killed Shirou five times already, but then Illya goes to say it's nothing compared to - and then Taiga hits her saying you reveal any spoilers.

[Moczo]

The thing about Saber is that she's so serious that when she does blow her top, it's just... adorable. She's so cute when she's angry that I keep picking bad options just to watch her freak out . I'm probably going to get a bad end from too little affection and have to start over...

[Flinch]

As long as you're a good person, all tends to be forgiven.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

The thing about Saber is that she's so serious that when she does blow her top, it's just... adorable. She's so cute when she's angry that I keep picking bad options just to watch her freak out . I'm probably going to get a bad end from too little affection and have to start over...

That's okay, that Tiger Dojo was actually pretty good.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That's okay, that Tiger Dojo was actually pretty good.

Heh, I didn't even think about that, but it's been just as long since I've seen any of the Tiger Dojos. Maybe once I've re-read Fate all the way through, I'll go back to the beginning and get all the choices wrong again for old time's sake.

Honestly, I think I'm enjoying the story more the second time through. I'm not in a hurry to see the plot, so I'm taking it slow and actually giving a thorough read-through to all the insane magi-babble that I just kinda skimmed on the first run through. Even the meaningless stuff really highlights the insane amount of thought and detail that was put into this story.

And I'm looking forward to seeing Gilgamesh again. I enjoy his over-the-top crazy in the Fate route. UBW, not so much... but there we have Lancer getting two or three scenes that are so awesome they single-handedly catapulted him from 'uninteresting' to 'like my third favorite character', so that's good compensation.

[DragoZERO]

Lancer was really bad ass in UBW!

Speaking of, who was his original master anyway?

[Moczo]

Her name was Bazett Fraga McRemitz, a magus from the mage association. She basically exists to prove that Lancer has the worst luck of all time, because she's very cute, an action girl who could have fought alongside him very well, and a massive Cu Chulainn fangirl who only joined the war so she could summon and meet Lancer specifically.

So basically, Kirei stealing his command spells prevented Lancer from spending most of the Holy Grail War having awesome fights and hanging out with a hot chick who was totally head-over-heels for him.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Her name was Bazett Fraga McRemitz, a magus from the mage association. She basically exists to prove that Lancer has the worst luck of all time, because she's very cute, an action girl who could have fought alongside him very well, and a massive Cu Chulainn fangirl who only joined the war so she could summon and meet Lancer specifically.

So basically, Kirei stealing his command spells prevented Lancer from spending most of the Holy Grail War having awesome fights and hanging out with a hot chick who was totally head-over-heels for him.

No wonder Lancer hated him so much. Was she the one killed on like the first or second day that we heard about on the news? The three people killed in the house with a long weapon. I am reading the wiki and it says something different, but I thought those people killed were related to Lancer.

And I really wish the F/HA translation would be completed. I really want to play it, lol.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Was she the one killed on like the first or second day that we heard about on the news? The three people killed in the house with a long weapon. I am reading the wiki and it says something different, but I thought those people killed were related to Lancer.

I don't think so... she was found alive eventually, and generally alive people aren't announced dead on the news. But her being alive might've been a straight-up retcon that they only decided on in HA, so they might have had her announced dead and then decided later to have her be alive and just not say anything.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Her name was Bazett Fraga McRemitz, a magus from the mage association. She basically exists to prove that Lancer has the worst luck of all time, because she's very cute, an action girl who could have fought alongside him very well, and a massive Cu Chulainn fangirl who only joined the war so she could summon and meet Lancer specifically.

No, she exists to provide a plot for Hollow Ataraxia. Where she still doesn't get to work with Lancer, because if she did she'd be broken.

So basically, Kirei stealing his command spells prevented Lancer from spending most of the Holy Grail War having awesome fights and hanging out with a hot chick who was totally head-over-heels for him.

Kirei stealing his command spells also prevented them from walking through the Grail War almost unopposed, only to get squashed by Berserker (unless Bazett could get to Ilya, of course...). There is no way that any of the other master/servant combos could really have stood up to them (except for perhaps Gil), because her Fragarach would stop them using their Noble Phantasms and Gae Bolg would finish them off. Plus, Bazett could kick the ass of anyone in the war in a straight fight. Maybe Archer might have had a chance, because he doesn't have a 'trump card' (if UBW doesn't count), but I think Bazett could still take down Rin whilst Lancer and Archer were fighting. Shirou was quite simply fucked, though, because Bazett would kill him in a second and without being able to use Excalibur and without Lancer's order to retreat Saber would die too.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

No wonder Lancer hated him so much. Was she the one killed on like the first or second day that we heard about on the news? The three people killed in the house with a long weapon. I am reading the wiki and it says something different, but I thought those people killed were related to Lancer.

That wasn't her, no. She went to see Kotomine, having been stupid enough to trust him, and got the expected treatment (that being a knife in the back...). He cut her arm off and took her command seals, leaving her to die.

Originally Posted by Moczo

I don't think so... she was found alive eventually, and generally alive people aren't announced dead on the news. But her being alive might've been a straight-up retcon that they only decided on in HA, so they might have had her announced dead and then decided later to have her be alive and just not say anything.

I think it's implied that outside HA she is dead, because HA certainly didn't happen after any of the FSN timelines.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, she exists to provide a plot for Hollow Ataraxia. Where she still doesn't get to work with Lancer, because if she did she'd be broken.

Well, yes, that also.

I think it's implied that outside HA she is dead, because HA certainly didn't happen after any of the FSN timelines.

From what I understand, the official explanation is that after the Grail is destroyed in FSN, Avenger/Angra Mainyu's consciousness doesn't return to the void with the rest of the Grail and continues attempting to fulfill its role as the Holy Grail by granting a wish to someone. It finds Bazett, and HA follows.

Since the Grail is destroyed in every route, and HA is all in Bazett's head anyway (or is it... I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but I'm pretty sure it's either an illusion in her head or some kind of pocket dimension where only she and Avenger are 'real'), it could follow any route if this is the case. And frankly, knowing Type Moon, the 'canon' ending to FSN is probably some combination of all three routes anyway. They love doing that.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

From what I understand, the official explanation is that after the Grail is destroyed in FSN, Avenger/Angra Mainyu's consciousness doesn't return to the void with the rest of the Grail and continues attempting to fulfill its role as the Holy Grail by granting a wish to someone. It finds Bazett, and HA follows.

Except that Bazett got killed before the third day. She'd be long dead by the end of the war, so if AM kept her alive, he had to be doing it from the very start.

Since the Grail is destroyed in every route, and HA is all in Bazett's head anyway (or is it... I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but I'm pretty sure it's either an illusion in her head or some kind of pocket dimension where only she and Avenger are 'real'), it could follow any route if this is the case.

I'm not sure, but I think that at very least someone has to find her.

And frankly, knowing Type Moon, the 'canon' ending to FSN is probably some combination of all three routes anyway. They love doing that.

There isn't a 'canon' ending. The Nasuverse is a multiverse, so they're all canon.