[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Almazluverdis3]

Can anyone give us the Knox rules again? Please?

[Judoh]

Just look them up on the wiki.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3

Oh yeah, I totally forgot. Maybe she meant Beato's death in EP5?

Yes, I'm trying to mess with you like a good incompetent anti-fantasy.

As I said somewhere else, Beato's death in Episode 5 is moot. Why? Because Battler, no longer an incompetent idiot in Episode 6, comes along and revives her.
That Battler, always getting in the way of people who want to kill others.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Spoiler for From http://www.diogenes-club.com/knoxrules.htm:

I. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow;
Exactly how early is "early"? Does this mean only people from the first game or the first four games?

II. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course;
This is clear. Battler doesn't want to suspect any of his family members as well.

III. No more than one secret room or passage is allowable. I would add that a secret passage should not be brought in at all unless the action takes place in the kind of house where such devices might be expected;
So having found the secret passage that leads out of Kuwadorian in ep4 rules out the possibility of finding any more secret passages?

IV. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end;
Only what relates to what is possible as of 1986 is possible. No robot Genji

V. No Chinaman must figure into the story*;
*In Msgr. Knox's time, one of the most overused plot mechanisms was the introduction of "a Chinaman" or other foreign, exotic or otherwise unusual character from "another land" as the malefactor. This comment was not intended as a "racist" one, but as a reaction to this plotting mechanism.
Is Erika really just a random shipwreck victim who is not related to the family? How much of a factor is she in episode 5?

VI. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right;
This is clear. If, for example, Battler were to question Maria thoroughly at the very begining then it would lead to a revelation that somebody is going to try commit murders in accordance to the epitaph. There is no reason Battler would do this.

VII. The detective must not, himself, commit the crime;
Meta Battler(the detective) != piece Battler so this will be interesting.

VIII. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader;
Does this one mean that everything Battler learns regarding solving the mysteries we learn as well? So there is nothing that Battler is currently aware of that would help him solve the mysteries that we do not already know.

IX. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but only very slightly, below that of the average reader;
I don't believe this applies to Umineko no naku koro ni

X. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them
I assume one could still disguise themselves as another family member and not violate this rule.

Found the rules. Searching can really help, guys.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3

Found the rules. Searching can really help, guys.

They're phrased differently in Umineko though. So I'd use the wording they use in the game.

Knox's 5th for example is completely omitted.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

As I said somewhere else, Beato's death in Episode 5 is moot. Why? Because Battler, no longer an incompetent idiot in Episode 6, comes along and revives her.
That Battler, always getting in the way of people who want to kill others.

Exactly! People die because of Battler. But then he breaks his sin by reviving thee who declared he was incompetent, thus breaking it it.
In other words, you break 17 twigs, then you grow a tree.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Judoh

They're phrased differently in Umineko though. So I'd use the wording they use in the game.

Knox's 5th for example is completely omitted.

Really? I never knew. But still, some rules do apply.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Because I'm feeling anti-lazy at four in the morning, here's the Decalogue:
Knox's 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.
Knox's 2nd: It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.
Knox's 3rd: It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist.
Knox's 4th: It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
Knox's 5th: Not applicable.
Knox's 6th: It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique.
Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.
Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves without any clues.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Because I'm feeling anti-lazy at four in the morning, here's the Decalogue:
Knox's 1st: It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.
Knox's 2nd: It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.
Knox's 3rd: It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist.
Knox's 4th: It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.
Knox's 5th: Not applicable.
Knox's 6th: It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique.
Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit.
Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.
Knox's 10th: It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves without any clues.

Oh, thanks.

Crack theory #4:- The milf did it.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3

Exactly! People die because of Battler. But then he breaks his sin by reviving thee who declared he was incompetent, thus breaking it it.
In other words, you break 17 twigs, then you grow a tree.

That's not quite how I see it. This is my interpretation:
Episode 1-4: Battler is incompetent. No matter what he does, he can never grasp the solution to the mysteries. Every time he thinks he's solved it, some witch swings by and trolls him with a line or ten of red text and smashes his theories.
Episode 5: Battler is mostly incompetent in this Episode. Piece-Battler performs extraordinarily under the control of Bern and Lambda, but Meta-Battler fails on occasion, specifically trying to defend Beato in the Trial. Then he gets all the time in the world to solve the mystery, and with the help of the Decalogue, reaches the truth.
However, he is still incompetent (albeit no longer an idiot) and fails to save Beato from giving up. Then he goes all out and totally smashes Erika's petty attempts to solve the mysteries.
Episode 6: I'm convinced this is completely Genius Battler in play. Basically, he knows exactly what he's doing the entire time, and the whole mess he gets himself into is only a risk, a gamble, in order to have the odds high enough to perform the level of miracle it takes to revive Beato.
In short, it works.

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

That's not quite how I see it. This is my interpretation:
Episode 1-4: Battler is incompetent. No matter what he does, he can never grasp the solution to the mysteries. Every time he thinks he's solved it, some witch swings by and trolls him with a line or ten of red text and smashes his theories.
Episode 5: Battler is mostly incompetent in this Episode. Piece-Battler performs extraordinarily under the control of Bern and Lambda, but Meta-Battler fails on occasion, specifically trying to defend Beato in the Trial. Then he gets all the time in the world to solve the mystery, and with the help of the Decalogue, reaches the truth.
However, he is still incompetent (albeit no longer an idiot) and fails to save Beato from giving up. Then he goes all out and totally smashes Erika's petty attempts to solve the mysteries.
Episode 6: I'm convinced this is completely Genius Battler in play. Basically, he knows exactly what he's doing the entire time, and the whole mess he gets himself into is only a risk, a gamble, in order to have the odds high enough to perform the level of miracle it takes to revive Beato.
In short, it works.

Characters who believe Beato have mentioned this before.

EP1- Kanon's sleep-worthy but important speech on gambling (Has this guy gone to Vegas or something?)
EP2- Maria. She said that risk is needed for all magic.

See the pattern?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I always point out Bern's "she's a Doll like Corpse line" to show she died in EP 4. She basically said the only reason she exists right now is because of Lambda's shackle rule. And that that prevented her from leaving the game. I'm not going to pull up the quote again and again just to show that. I really just think she's dead by EP4, but that's just me.

I said i wasn't going to quote it again, but I guess I'll do it for the newer members. Don't get me wrong It's not like I want to help you or anything. I just can't be bothered with having to explain this over and over again ~Tsun

Bern: "Never again. This child will never laugh again"
Battler: "How can you say for sure!? Quit trying to steal Beato's right to laugh."
Bern:"....Oh should I say it in red then...?"

Bern: "Beato is like this as a result of your victory"
Battler'....what are you talking about...?"

Bern: "You said something interesting in a previous game. You said this would be a torture where you both torment each other. That was right. It was torture for Beato as well. And you won that torture game. .....That's why Beato's soul was killed and why she became a doll like corpse."
Battler:"are you saying that I did this to Beato?"
Bern: "The battle ends when one of you loses the will to try and win...As far as battle between you and Beatrice goes, the conclusion was already reached last time. Well it probably happened with you noticing though."
Battler: "In that case why hasn't the game ended when I've already won?...Why is this game still continuing?"
Bern: "The shackle against the girl's ankle... that's a rule Lambda made."

Even if Beatrice tries to yield and gets discouraged or gives up she isn't capable of stepping down from the game....That's the rule or maybe it's a curse...

If I have to I'll post the whole group of images to prove it. The fact is Beato died in EP4. get it?

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I said i wasn't going to quote it again, but I guess I'll do it for the newer members. Don't get me wrong It's not like I want to help you or anything. I just can't be bothered with having to explain this over and over again ~Tsun



If I have to I'll post the whole group of images to prove it. The fact is Beato died in EP4. get it?

Yup. But Bern and 34 brought her back.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3

Yup. But Bern and 34 brought her back.

I'm pretty sure it was Battler that did that actually. Interesting twist no?

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I'm sure it was Battler that did that actually. Interesting twist no?

Very interesting. Behold, the the Almaz text! It's fan stupid text that stands for crack theories!
Gohda loves Beatrice! He wants to marry her!(See EP2)

[Almazluverdis3]

Therefore, Only Almazluverdis3 can use this awesome text. Get it?

I just felt like making a new text XD

[Jan-Poo]

I agree with Judoh. Beatrice was killed by Battler and the reason she remained on the gameboard was Lambda. Then once her presence wasn't necessary anymore for her gameboard to exist, the shackles that bound her were released causing her to disappear.

Somehow this makes me think that Battler did answer to Beatrice's last question in EP4 but we were never allowed to see it. Any other way I don't explain how Beatrice died or lost, since in order to win the human side is required to explain all the mysteries.

Then again... Erika never explained the letter in EP5...

[Almazluverdis3]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I agree with Judoh. Beatrice was killed by Battler and the reason she remained on the gameboard was Lambda. Then once her presence wasn't necessary anymore for her gameboard to exist, the shackles that bound her were released causing her to disappear.

Somehow this makes me think that Battler did answer to Beatrice's last question in EP4 but we were never allowed to see it. Any other way I don't explain how Beatrice died or lost, since in order to win the human side is required to explain all the mysteries.

Then again... Erika never explained the letter in EP5...

I agree. Though Battler might have said, "You are an idiot. " Then got OWNED.

Ushiromiya Battler said, "You are an idoit." to Beatrice in EP4.
FUCK YEAH ALMAZ TEXT

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Almazluverdis3

Magic doesn't exist. I live by that as an anti-fantasy. There is no way for Goldsmith to exist unless everyone in the mansion is hallucinating. Therefore, Everyone was drunk! Even Kanon and Maria, the minors!

"I don't think it's wise to serve a nine-year-old wine, Mr. Krauss sir."

"Gohda, as a man of refined taste and sublime skill, can you recommend anything to be served with this meal other than wine?"

"...well no, but she's looking very intoxicated."

"An then I... I shaid... mama... hahahahah! Uu~, Maria's gonna have a hangover..."

"Hah! What a lightweight. She's going to be messed up once we all eat that cake I had Gohda lace with LSD."

"I didn't lace the cake with LSD!"

"Oh. Well then it must've been me. Cuz it's in there."

[Volcanic]

I am so late it doesn't even offer excuse (my last post was in March- I've devolved into a lurker, it seems) but thanks to freeze-framing and Windows 7's Snipping tool, I have some HQ screens for you all in response to some posts here.

Spoiler for EP7 OP:

• Judoh was right when he said he saw Yazuka. It's vauge, but I see them too, I think...
• A correction for Raiza (friendly, of course- nice job on your Analysis~): Hideyoshi and Rosa aren't cheerful, actually. Hideyoshi has his EP6 crying sprite, and Rosa is angry. (Hideyoshi is obviously the curious one here...)
• The tunnel appears in the flashes behind Beato.
• One, Two shots of the portraits. EP8 all but confirmed now.
• Very faint, but you can see the chapel behind Shkanon vs Stakes, Rudolf+Kyrie vs Stakes and Gohda vs Beezie.
• The flashes behind BatBeato seem to be from he EP5 OP, except one: George in the doorway. It seems to be an edit of one shot from the EP5 OP, but with Hideyoshi blocking Battler and the coloring changed. Suspicious George is suspicious.
• The last flash behind BatBeato is new, too: fire and Battler determined. This and Dlanor earlier = Possible bomb theory confirmation?