Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Kazu-kun]

With such an interesting discussion still going on I doubt anyone will care about my little theory here, but here's goes anyway.

Background:

Homura's time travel ability: what goes back is not her body, but her soul (memories, powers, etc)

QB's words about magical girls: "Magical girls defy established logic. I wouldn't be surprised by any absurd things you accomplish."

Theory:

When Madoka made Homura promise she would save her, Madoka and Homura's souls got connected somehow. From then on, some of Madoka's powers and memories go back along with Homura every time she resets.

This would explain why Madoka's getting stronger, apparently from timeline 4 and on, and why she's now starting to remember things from previous timelines.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

No. I did not in any way condescend to Triple_R; I suggested to him a text that I found very helpful in constructing my own thinking on the general subject. As outside reading, not directly about Madoka Magica, I left it as a hyperlink. That still seems to me appropriate.

I recommend books to my friends all the time, taofd. I do so in the spirit of shared intellectual excitement, respect, and fellow feeling. If you can only understand that as condescension, then really, so much the worse for you.

Except, it's absolutely not related to the conversation at all. Maxwell's piece is about the formation of government, and the heart of government's role. Talking about the role of violence in mandating order has no bearing on Madoka Magica- UNLESS you wish to justify QB's position as a consequentist.

While taking a "turning the other cheek" approach may not work in politics, when did magical girls become politicians or vice versa?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by taofd

Unless a certain mahou shoujo's potential to love is so great, that she never "runs out" of love?

As amusing as that sounds, even Madoka has her limits. Homura witnessed that at least four times. They may be higher than everyone else's, but still.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Practical effect or objective result or whatever, the main point I have kept bringing up is Madoka's motivations. Whether or not Madoka ends up protecting the rest of the town is irrelevant, because those are not what she would truly be willing to give or risk her life for--are not the integral things to Madoka's happiness and existence.

We do know that Madoka in Timeline 1 would be willing to give or risk her life for the protection of her city, because she stated so openly at the end of that timeline. She also had this exchange with Homura:

Homura: Is it Ok? Aren't you afraid?

Madoka: It's never really Ok, and of course I'm afraid. But defeating a witch helps a lot of people so it's kinda worth it, right?


Now, even given all that Madoka now knows about Kyubey's magical girl system, has this changed? Defeating a witch on the level of Walpurgis Night still "helps a lot of people" (an idealistic and very altruistic focus), doesn't it?


There's one key difference between Madoka and the other magical girls. The other magical girls chose to be that for the wish. So their helpful actions as magical girls was out of a sense of duty/obligation, either to the wish itself (Homura, Kyoko), or to properly holding up their end of the bargain with Kyubey (Mami, Sayaka). In other words, they weren't really interested in being a magical girl superhero just for the sake of being a magical girl superhero.

Madoka is likely different, and it's quite conceivable that the resolution of this anime's narrative will arise out of the fact that Madoka is different here. This could also help to account for her great potential.

Madoka wants to be a magical girl superhero just for the sake of being a magical girl superhero. There's no specific wish that Madoka has which would be the chief reason behind her becoming a magical girl. In fact, out of a difficulty to come up with such a wish, Madoka likely wished for cake in the first three timelines.

You perceive this anime as a repudiation of idealism and altruism, but I think that it may be almost the complete opposite of that. The anime may be saying that whatever you choose to be or do in life, it should be a natural outgrowth of your own goals, ideals, and passions, and not simply done out of a sense of duty and obligation.

Superman doesn't save Metropolis just because he's a card-carrying JLA member and hence it's "his job".

He saves Metropolis because, as you say, he wants to. It's a natural outgrowth of his ideals and passions.

And it may well be that saving her city will be consistent with Madoka's ideals and passions, and that this is something that Homura will need to accept.

To put it another way: if there were no friends, no family, no things of absolute value to Madoka's personal feelings in that town, then there is also no way she would (or should) sacrifice her own life/feelings to protect it.

You're raising a distinction here that the anime itself isn't even hinting at. Madoka herself does not appear to be making any sort of clear-cut distinction between "helping a lot of people" and "helping her friends and family". In saving the city, she does both.

However, it is only because of those important things inherent to Madoka's existence that it is necessary for Madoka to step forward.

We do not know that.

There has been a whole lot of thematic commentary in this show about i.e. not confusing gratitude with responsibility, making clear whether your actions are for others' or your own sake, staying true to just the things most important to you, discarding hindrances, not letting oneself be moved by a false sense of guilt/duty instead of the most important things, etc. etc. etc.

You do not need to be driven by a sense of "duty" or "responsibility" in order to have personal moral ideals or an inherently altruistic nature that would cause you to want to be a hero.

In fact, this may precisely be what allows Madoka to succeed where Sayaka failed. Madoka may very well be driven by true broad altruism (caring for "lots of people") whereas Sayaka was driven by romantic feelings masquerading as altruism.

Or to put it better: the world is not such a nice place that ideals or altruism always mean something.

They may mean something to Madoka though.

If it's your life and fundamental capacity for happiness on the line, then you better build it on something a bit more solid

I know generally happy people who are very altruistic and/or idealistic. So for some, this is a solid foundation to build their life upon.

Well let's see. Here's an explicit this-timeline example for you, then. Do you think Madoka should accept the deaths of Mami, Sayaka, and Kyouko? They are 'victims' of Kyuubey's plots, certainly, and definitely people Madoka cares about on some level. Do you not feel that accepting their ends in this world is a compromise of Madoka's moral ideals and feelings?

No, I don't.

How exactly would she go about not accepting them? I can only think of one way she could do that, really, and that same way may get in the way of something else that's important to achieve.

Basically, Madoka could wish them back to life, but that's all she can do. Doing that, of course, would also prevent her from making a different wish, a different wish that may be necessary in order for her to, say, destroy Kyubey's magical girl system.

Madoka almost certainly does not have a pragmatically perfect solution to all of the problems facing her. So she will need to make a choice of what's the best route overall to take. I do not see that as her compromising her moral ideals or feelings in the least.

Even Superman has had to deal with the loss of friends due to villainous plots (re: Crisis on Infinite Earths, and Kingdom Come).

But I suppose Hyperborealis and I might feel that such misfortunes in life might be inevitabilities, or that it is sometimes impossible to move the universe despite our heartfelt feelings.

Yes, I agree. But that doesn't mean that you cast aside everything that you believe in, and every moral ideal or value that you hold to.

Superman is Superman. He can do what he wants, but that doesn't make him or his values a model for all humans to live by.

Would the world be a better or worse place if more people shared the values of Superman?

However, as for Madoka, that would be merely by accident, because at heart, the greater good has very little to do with what either she or the viewers truly care about.

There are some Madoka quotes that strongly suggest otherwise.

'Goodness', and 'the sake of others', don't really play into that,

What do you call a general desire to "help a lot of people" if not "goodness" and "the sake of others"?

Frankly, if it did truly matter for Madoka, she would have moved much, much more earlier.

I disagree. Madoka didn't move much, much earlier because she found a compromise between heeding Homura's sincere warnings, and helping others. She found that compromise in basically being a normal human tag-a-long for some of Sayaka and Kyoko's missions.

This is simply Madoka being wise and cautious and heedful of Homura's words, it's not her casting aside moral ideals or values.

It is one thing if idealism really is the most important thing to your life (i.e. like what became of Sayaka)

Idealism was never truly the most important thing to Sayaka. Her romantic desires for Kamijo clearly were, and Sayaka's failure to acknowledge that, and act in accordance with that, is why she met with such a sad and tragic end.

but in Madoka's case. and also (I believe) for most people, it is only natural that that would be something much more personal and closer to home.

I would argue that Madoka is more idealistic than Sayaka.

In timeline five, Madoka's actions are (prospectively) morally 'wrong' because she accepts and compromises with her enemy Kyuubey, who has caused her friends suffering.

I disagree with you here, and here's why, and here's where I now see a possible thematic purpose for why Gen had Kyoko come across as such a villainous figure early on. Perhaps he did so to make it clear that Madoka's personal ideals calls for diplomacy and negotiation (if possible), even when dealing with a seemingly villainous foe.

If Madoka ends up compromising with her enemy Kyubey it would be no different then the advice she gave to Sayaka for Sayaka to compromise with her enemy (at the time) Kyoko.

Madoka certainly possesses idealism and altruism at some level in her character. I would very much hesitate to attribute every sort of good or kindness as concepts under those umbrellas, though, as you seem to be doing.

No, I'm not doing that. For example, Madoka's kindness to Sayaka would not necessarily be an act of idealism or altruism, as we all need friends of course. However, I disagree with you here...

Showing friendliness and encouragement to a new transfer student has nothing to do with ideals or altruism.

In Madoka's case, it has everything to do with ideals and altruism. Madoka already has friends in Hitomi and Sayaka. She is already contented in where she is in life at that time.

Her friendliness and encouragement towards Homura are acts of altruism, motivated by ideals.

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Idealism and altruism for their own sake are abstractions, and the pursuit of them is a romance, a fantasy divorced from the complications of actual lives, costs, and consequences. The paradigmatic example of such a fantasy in the anime is of course the mahou shoujo herself. She is, as Madoka says of Sayaka, the person who "wanted to become a hero of justice."

Ah, but did Sayaka truly want to become a hero of justice? Or did she just carry out such a role out of sense of obligation due to Kyubey keeping up his end of the bargain and healing Kamijo's hand?

I am as sympathetic as you are to altruism. I am sure whatever Madoka decides we will be able to understand her actions altruistically.

Yes, and that's a key part of my point to Sol.

But altruism is not the point--it is not the verb, but the direct object that matters, as far as altruism itself is concerned.

If you're saying that Madoka is not dealing primarily with abstractions, but rather with concrete reality, then yes, of course. Her own moral ideals are based upon her understanding of concrete reality, and her desired place in that.

Madoka is not a great philosopher like Aristotle or Immanuel Kant. I'm certainly not suggesting that.

What you say can be true, but isn't necessarily true. I think the sad story of Sayaka is meant precisely to illustrate a) the pitfalls of naive altruism and b) the contradiction between wanting good for another person and wanting good for yourself. As Sayaka says, "Whenever I wish for someone to be happy, someone else has to suffer as much. / That's what it means to be a Puella Magi."

As much as I like Sayaka, I'm now inclined to think that altruism was never really her primary goal, and maybe that was the whole problem...

So, Triple R, you are going to build your love-bower on a pile of bodies? I suppose the view is good, but the smell?

You have a colorful way with words, hyperborealis, I won't deny you that.

Right now, love is costing more lives than it's saving. But in the end, it may be the opposite.

This is very unlikely I'll admit, but suppose the anime ends this way -

Madoka: My wish is for Kyoko, Mami, and Sayaka to all be brought back to life, and as normal humans.

*Kyubey completes that wish*

Madoka goes on to fight and defeat Walpurgis Night.

Madoka then hugs her resurrected friends, expressing love.


Now, yes, I really doubt that Gen will be this kind, but we can't really know for sure until we see the ending. That's all I'm saying here - let's wait for the ending before we cast aside the possibility of "love conquers all" being a theme of sorts for this anime.

What we know right now is that love is playing a huge role in this anime, so it's not completely inconceivable for Gen to choose to have love be what resolves the conflicts of this anime.

Therefore we can and should dispense with abstract discussions of morality and focus on Madoka's character instead.

I do think that the focus should be on Madoka's character, yes.

Originally Posted by taofd

*snip for space*

Unless a certain mahou shoujo's potential to love is so great, that she never "runs out" of love?

Superb post, taofd. Your own viewpoints closely reflect my own.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Aww, that's cold, man. You're shutting my entire argument down by saying "you're seeing things that aren't there" without even engaging it on an intellectual level? Do you have any actual reasons for saying this show isn't dealing with the themes I think it is (or rather, as you seem to have interpreted, that it isn't as 'deep' as you think I find it), or do you simply just feel that way? Let me first clarify that I am not talking about any romantic notion of 'balance' or 'karma' in any supranatural sense but precisely the cold hard reality that all actions do have consequences (did you not really grasp the fact that for me this represents a tremendous 'balance' already?).

Without engaging it on an intellectual level? I'm amused you perceive what I wrote in that regard. Simply stated, you missed my point. It isn't that people can't draw meaning from something, but that Madoka isn't forcing those meanings upon the audience nor is it trying to send some kind of message to the audience either. It is simply a very different take on the Magical Girl genre. That someone finds greater meaning in it than that is fine, but that's a personal thing. Not everyone will see things the same way.

An example of the difference in narratives would be something like Earth Girl Arjuna, which blatantly forces on the audience what the writer/staff are trying to communicate. That doesn't make it any more or less deep than Madoka, just different. Some people find Arjuna very meaningful, some find it pretentious, and others dismiss it entirely. There's a case to be made that Madoka is merely more subtle, and that's fine. On the other hand unlike Arjuna, one can easily make the case that it's just trying to tell a story and rather than forcing the audience into thinking about meaning, it lets the audience come to their own conclusions.

Take for example Kyubey. Why is he such an interesting character? Because rather than writing him in such a way that the screen may as well flash "Alert alert, this guy is an evil villain", it lets us come to our own conclusions through his actions, and opens up the door to question ourselves on what constitutes the variables of good and evil, and right and wrong. Similarly the show does this for most of the characters and even the plot itself.

My post was about this. I can still find meaning and debate about morality and other subjective fields of belief regarding shows that clearly draw such lines. It might not always be easy, but it can be done. I've seen people write essays about the ethics of Tom and Jerry. Others simply see a cute cartoon about a cat and a mouse. There's a saying for this in visual media: show, don't tell. Telling the audience what you intend or mean rather than showing them forces the audience to close their minds rather than open them. If an explanation is already provided, why bother thinking about it? It's counterproductive to the narrative and how it engages the audience.

Back to Arjuna as an example, there is an episode about abortion that bothered me greatly. The writer, instead of letting the audience come to their own conclusions on the matter, essentially has the characters narrating the importance of life and why abortion is a bad thing. It does this from a standpoint that is very limiting considering the scope of the topic and frames it in a very direct and biased way. I suppose because of that, the writer succeeded in making me think, but it did it in such a way that I felt like I was being assaulted by opinion and then being told to accept it or find find a rebuttal to an argument I couldn't have....sort of like someone posting an opinion, you respond to it, but the poster never comes back online to read it.

When I speak of how people view "balance" in Madoka, what I mean is that I've noticed how literal people use it. Yes, the show mentions it, and sometimes even uses it for plot. But it is not a literal thing. Sayaka believes that her wish cursed her. It did not. Her own actions are responsible for her fate. Homura says that Sayaka will curse as many people as she saved. This is true, but not because of some kind of balance quota that must be met, she brought it upon herself by her own foolish actions.

Was Mami's ending a balancing of her wish? She cheated death, so because she died again that must be balance? Maybe she was meant to die? I don't deal in maybes.

Kyouko? Her (current?) death was martyrdom. Was it a balancing of her wish? Or did she die for a good reason? Some say she could have lived and helped Homura. I say she just picked a time to die that felt right to her. No balancing, just love.

Madoka? Kind to a fault. People presume her kindness is balanced by her wickedness, that her power as a Magical Girl and her destruction as a Witch are not only inevitable but required for some kind of cosmic equilibrium. I disagree. Madoka didn't become a Witch because of her grief, like Sayaka. She did so because she gave everything she had to protect what she loved. That's why Homura is so determined to break her fate. How could someone like Madoka be used so horribly?

Homura is the anomaly. Of all the characters, she is the only one that pays a true price for her wish, being cursed to repeat watching her loved ones die, her world destroyed, over and over again because she is trying to find a way to break the fate of everyone....herself included. She represents the hope of humanity, the struggle against fate. When she despairs, she finds reason to keep going. Despite her claims that she isn't human, her actions say otherwise.

Kyubey is contrasted from Homura because he's cheating. The MG system is a perfect system that breaks the rules of the universe. He found a way to cheat the universe by discovering a perpetual motion machine that feeds outside energy into what is supposed to be a finite source. He's the guy that solves the worlds oil problems by figuring out how to magically produce more "on demand". So if you want to discuss balance, he's the guy to point fingers at for figuring out how to get around the consequences for his actions.

Being able to draw parallels to metaphors of growing up, making sacrifices, making mistakes, the nature of right and wrong, etc., are not things the show forces upon the audience. The audience can choose to see or not see these things. That is what I mean by saying the show isn't "dealing" with those themes, it is just using them to tell a story. They are byproducts, and not the focus. The focus is on tragic characters finding a way out of a bad end. The way the story shows us how is left to us, the audience, to ponder the specifics. Or not.

It's all in the eye of the beholder.

[Demon Eyes]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

We do know that Madoka in Timeline 1
There's one key difference between Madoka and the other magical girls. The other magical girls chose to be that for the wish. So their helpful actions as magical girls was out of a sense of duty/obligation, either to the wish itself (Homura, Kyoko), or to properly holding up their end of the bargain with Kyubey (Mami, Sayaka). In other words, they weren't really interested in being a magical girl superhero just for the sake of being a magical girl superhero.

Only because Madoka is the only happy one.

I wonder if she would do the same once she knows despair. If she off'ed Mami that fast before, I wonder what she would do when her family is...involved!

Now I am hoping QB plays that card just so he can get his just desserts!

[Seihai]

Some things that made me go "a-ha" when I rewatched episode 1:

- Before Madoka wakes up from her dream, still in her school uniform she acts surprised and looks behind her (sadly, she does the same in episode 2 as I just rechecked so it loses significance and may be just a "oh snap gonna wake up" reflex or something)
- Kyubei already knows Madoka's and Sayaka's names (though maybe it's just because he did his homework)
- Homura's parts where she cracks at things Madoka says stand out for example when she had to retreat before Mami she closes her eyes in sadness

I guess nothing important, nice transition anyway. I start to think that Madoka's wish in timeline 4 is related to the current Madoka in timeline 5 where she starts to remember things. Or maybe it's just a natural side effect for Madoka since her potential is so great? Sigh, I've been even less creative lately, just dying to watch the next episode now.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

As amusing as that sounds, even Madoka has her limits. Homura witnessed that at least four times. They may be higher than everyone else's, but still.

Tengen Toppa Madoka Magica. Believe in the you who believes in magical girls triumphing despair and throwing reality at the curbside.

Urobuchi better not ruin this for my inner magical girl :/.

Originally Posted by Vanish

Some things that made me go "a-ha" when I rewatched episode 1:

- Before Madoka wakes up from her dream, still in her school uniform she acts surprised and looks behind her (sadly, she does the same in episode 2 as I just rechecked so it loses significance and may be just a "oh snap gonna wake up" reflex or something)
- Kyubei already knows Madoka's and Sayaka's names (though maybe it's just because he did his homework)
- Homura's parts where she cracks at things Madoka says stand out for example when she had to retreat before Mami she closes her eyes in sadness

I guess nothing important, nice transition anyway. I start to think that Madoka's wish in timeline 4 is related to the current Madoka in timeline 5 where she starts to remember things. Or maybe it's just a natural side effect for Madoka since her potential is so great? Sigh, I've been even less creative lately, just dying to watch the next episode now.

I agree. I also think T4 is related to T5, especially since we don't actually know what happened to T4 Madoka. We just see her become a huge plume in the distance (or maybe that's where she went?) Did she transcend her physical self? Whatever did happen to her? Maybe she had enough power to create minor wishes that effect alternate timelines? Afterall QB did say Madoka's power could theoretically change the laws of the universe itself...


@Triple_R Thanks

[Angelmonster]

Originally Posted by taofd

Tengen Toppa Madoka Magica. Believe in the you who believes in magical girls triumphing despair and throwing reality at the curbside.

Urobuchi better not ruin this for my inner magical girl :/.



I agree. I also think T4 is related to T5, especially since we don't actually know what happened to T4 Madoka. We just see her become a huge plume in the distance (or maybe that's where she went?) Did she transcend her physical self? Whatever did happen to her? Maybe she had enough power to create minor wishes that effect alternate timelines? Afterall QB did say Madoka's power could theoretically change the laws of the universe itself...


@Triple_R Thanks

I thought in T4 it was the timeline QB said Madoka was a Witch and he was goign to leave because she was about to destroy Earth??

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Angelmonster

I thought in T4 it was the timeline QB said Madoka was a Witch and he was goign to leave because she was about to destroy Earth??

That's right. Madoka becomes a witch at the end of T4:

QB: "Transformed Madoka was really amazing. I had predicted she would become the strongest magical girl, but I never would have imagined she'd destroy Walpurgis in one hit."

Homura: "You did that knowing what would probably happen?"

QB: "Sooner or later, the same thing would have happened either way. She defeated the greatest enemy as the strongest magical girl. Of course she would have to become the worst witch after that was over. In her current state Madoka will probably destroy this planet within ten days or so.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Would the world be a better or worse place if more people shared the values of Superman?

I dunno... >_>

[Triple_R]

Ah... Superman's dick period.

Yes, that's rather infamous.

Maybe Madoka is like good modern Superman while Kyubey is basically Dick Superman, lol.

(I can't believe these covers got approved by the Comics Code Authority... good grief, this makes Haruhi Suzumiya look like a Saint by comparison)

[Proto]

Random theory of the day:

Charlotte is Madoka's witch version from timeline 2:

Points in favor:
-cake theme!
-kind of similar design from the convoluted monster madoka transforms to compared to Charlotte's transformed version
-ribbon on madoka's gried seed

Points against:
-It's totally out of the left field.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Proto

Charlotte is Madoka's witch version from timeline 2:

There's a long shot showing it's the same as in timeline 4 but smaller. In any case, Madoka's witch is always a Mountain Spectre (Brockengespenst).

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Angelmonster

I thought in T4 it was the timeline QB said Madoka was a Witch and he was goign to leave because she was about to destroy Earth??

That is what QB theorizes Madoka will become / do to earth. We don't actually know what happened to her in the meantime.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by taofd

That is what QB theorizes Madoka will become / do to earth. We don't actually know what happened to her in the meantime.

No. Madoka already is a witch at the end of time line 4.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

QB: "Transformed Madoka was really amazing. I had predicted she would become the strongest magical girl, but I never would have imagined she'd destroy Walpurgis in one hit."

Homura: "You did that knowing what would probably happen?"

QB: "Sooner or later, the same thing would have happened either way. She defeated the greatest enemy as the strongest magical girl. Of course she would have to become the worst witch after that was over. In her current state Madoka will probably destroy this planet within ten days or so.

Besides, you can see Mountain Spectre Madoka in the background as QB speaks.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No. Madoka already is a witch at the end of time line 4.



Besides, you can see Mountain Spectre Madoka in the background as QB speaks.

Ah, you are correct. Huh, that was pretty fast for Madoka to change into a witch, I wonder why?

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No. Madoka already is a witch at the end of time line 4.

Besides, you can see Mountain Spectre Madoka in the background as QB speaks.

Hard to say with any certainty really since they didn't even really show us anything clearly. All we have to go on was a fairly ambiguous statement made by QB.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Zippicus

All we have to go on was a fairly ambiguous statement made by QB.

I doesn't sound ambiguous at all to me, at least not if translated accurately.

Regardless, you're free to believe whatever you want.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I doesn't sound ambiguous at all to me, at least not if translated accurately.

Regardless, you're free to believe whatever you want.

Did he mean she would transform into a witch in 10 days ? Did he mean it would take 10 days for her witch form to destroy the world ? Did he mean it would take her 5 days to transform, and 5 days to destroy.. etc, etc.

I'm not saying she did or didn't transform yet because it's not possible to confirm with the limited information we have. But yes, we're all free to believe whatever we want.