Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Fabien

Nope. By showing that a small group can attack the Ground Center, break the building, and go away, without anyone in TSAB being able to do anything useful. Including the three Aces.

Violence is violence.

You're basically trying to justify that anyone with enough power can do whatever they want to prove their point.

Originally Posted by Fabien

Nanoha does, too (she's not the White Devil for nothing), and that doesn't make her a Bad Guy.

Nanoha doesn't attack people and buildings whenever she wants.

Originally Posted by Fabien

Yeah, but even giving the order to kill is not a decision a human being takes lightly.

There are ways to make it easier. By not being there when it happens. By not seeing the bodies, hearing the screams.

And the way he sees people as test subjects... Doesn't scream "loves lives".

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fabien

When TSAB uses/develops weapons, that's Good, and when Jail uses/develops weapons, that's Bad? Why?

Because Jail isn't fighting crime.

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Fabien

In StrikerS, Jail thinks the Lost Logia should be put to good use, and the TSAB thinks they're too dangerous. And each group fights for their own beliefs.

Besides, Jail is a creator of life, so I don't think he likes killing.

Ya, it's just the torture, imprisonment and abuse of sentient machines/programs/clones I have problems with. What about the indiscriminate release of heavily armed drones whose search/retrival protocols include massive property damage and lethal use of force? I'd FIle that next to Dr. Mengele and the justifications for running nuclear tests over inhabited islands "for the Greater Good" for Dr J. This joker is so inhumanly out of touch with the collateral damage that a lesson involving a small shed with the resident berserker girls is in order.

Anyway, latest episode with the Terminator was a big suprise. What is with Subaru now? Is she a lost relic weapon, or a hybrid from a sentient machine? I'm taking the later since her internals appear to 'grow' with her. Thing is, it neatly explains how she is able to smack several tonnes of metal around without any problems. I'm betting her dad has some explaining to do.

Need to look at the clip again to see if the Numbers left Ginga's R-Knuckle behind. The nightmare scenario would be for Subaru to use both, load 10 cartridges and just flatten the opposition >_<

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You're basically trying to justify

Nope.
But Jail wanted to prove, and did prove, that the TSAB (or at least the Ground force) is unfit to protect Midchilda.
And he did that using TSAB's methods: violence, not lethal if possible.

From Jail's point of vue, freeing the universe from TSAB's rule (and especially the ban on Lost Logia) is a good deed.

(And indeed, IMHO, getting rid of Regius would be a Good Thing. But I digress.)

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Doesn't scream "loves lives".

I said creator of life. That's not exactly the same thing.
His job is to create life.

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

lets see...
-Ginga beaten up and taken away alongside with Vivio.
-Zafira and Shamal beaten and maybe at the brink of death just like Ginga.
-Erio unconscious and beaten, Subaru beaten.
-Vice coming out of retirement and tried sniping but got caught off guard by Lutecia because of a past incident and got beat.
-Vita and Rein beaten by Zest...and without UNISON! (this part I'm not too sure yet...)

I'd say RF6 has met its first defeat. I think we all misjudge Scaglietti as being a wimpy scientist/villain...he's actually far worse than what Precia and Reinforce did in the past seasons.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Ever wondered why these 'advancments' he makes are all related to weapons of war?

Both past and present.

Nonetheless, that 'symbol' had unarmed people inside. Why didn't he force them out if he just wants to attack the building? For that matter, why not choose a time when there's less people around?

And Uno was just following orders.

It was to make an example of sorts, not so many civillians so innocents will inevitably die from panic and enough to make people know you mean buissiness.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Because Jail isn't fighting crime.

From his point of vue, he is fighting against an injust law. He might even think of himself as Zorro or something.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Burner of Anime

Need to look at the clip again to see if the Numbers left Ginga's R-Knuckle behind. The nightmare scenario would be for Subaru to use both, load 10 cartridges and just flatten the opposition >_<

Someone in an earlier episode discussion suggested that Subaru would be dual-wielding by the end of the series. This episode suggests that just might happen.

Just got the peercast raw and finished watching it. Still shaking at Subaru's berserker mode. It wasn't unexpected given all the hints that were dropped from the manga and early episodes (ability to learn and master magic and shooting arts under a year; insane physical strength even without magic boosting; ability to take heavy impact without flinching; Wing Road being an Influent Skill; Jail referring to Erio, Fate and Subaru as children of Project F etc), but what a way to bring it to the fore.

I have to admit I did feel for Subaru after that though. Even giving it almost her all she was still beaten by chickenshit tactics, and saw her beloved sister virtually dead and carted off in a suitcase.

Now we can only hope to see Subaru getting her revenge by literally ripping some Numbers to shreds - her explosive Inherent Skill won't be doing otherwise. I personally think that after this attack, RF6 will be ditching the "take them in alive" policy and going all out. Declaration of war, perhaps?

Well worth the 8 1/2 hour wait for the torrent to appear.
Think I'll go watch it again.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Fabien

Nope.
But Jail wanted to prove, and did prove, that the TSAB (or at least the Ground force) is unfit to protect Midchilda.
And he did that using TSAB's methods: violence, not lethal if possible.

No, I'm pretty sure that's what you're doing.

Jail has the power to do what he did, which he did because he wants to. He choose to attack them.

And you seem clouded about the TSAB, they HAVE to use violence sometimes because criminals don't go peacefully. Remember what happened to Teana's brother?

Originally Posted by Fabien

From Jail's point of vue, freeing the universe from TSAB's rule (and especially the ban on Lost Logia) is a good deed.

(And indeed, IMHO, getting rid of Regius would be a Good Thing. But I digress.)

So he's an Anarchist.

Originally Posted by Fabien

I said creator of life. That's not exactly the same thing.
His job is to create life.

No, but you also said that he treasures life. Or at least know it's value.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fabien

From his point of vue, he is fighting against an injust law. He might even think of himself as Zorro or something.

Yup, except that injust law only seems to apply to HIM.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Icarus

I personally think that after this attack, RF6 will be ditching the "take them in alive" policy and going all out. Declaration of war, perhaps?

RF6's first priority is to find and rescue Vivio and Ginga. That means finding Jail.
Which means, the more of his minions they capture alive, the more chances they have to gain some information, the better.

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

I think after this incident, I don't think any of the numbers will be alive at the end of this season...just from this, they have demonstrated how hostile and dangerous they can be.
So if Subaru had the same colored eyes as the Numbers when she went berserk mode, then that means the Numbers are cyborgs themselves.
I wonder if Nanoha even knows about Subaru and Ginga's Cyborg bodies. Forget that, I wonder if all of RF6, excluding the forwards though, knew about their bodies...

[Avatar_notADV]

You guys are forgetting Vivio.

Remember that the whole "getting Relics" thing was a happy bonus - finding her was the jackpot. He's got something to do with her, something involving the holy whatsitcalled; possibly she's the host for whatever he's planning on creating. (But she's not irreplaceable, else they wouldn't have tried zapping the copter she was in.)

The real question is, where did she come from? She didn't come from Jail's organization. Is there still a Project F lab somewhere? Was she a military prototype? It's significant that there's a "holy" involved; we only have one church in the show so far, folks, so it's entirely possible that they're involved somehow. And boy, wouldn't that suck? ;p

Had a nasty thought about Regius. Why didn't he take heed, bulk up, prevent the attack, when it makes him look incompetent? What if he agrees with Jail in the first place? By sacrificing his own HQ, he pounds home the point that current TSAB doctrine is inferior, and opens up the perfect opportunity for him to push for combat cyborgs in his own force... and what do you know, here's a guy who has the technology and production facilities handy, how nice, how nice. Were they working together from the beginning? Or is Regius just a small-minded twit? We do know that he thinks he has a superweapon under his belt... could be cyborgs, could be whatever produced Vivio, could be something completely different.

On another note, keep in mind that Lutecia is after something completely different from Jail, and the Numbers are all a little deferential to her; it's entirely possible she could serve as a wedge, depending on how the plot turns out.

[Mappy]

Originally Posted by Fabien

From his point of vue, he is fighting against an injust law. He might even think of himself as Zorro or something.

Sociopaths usually do manage to find a reason to excuse their behaviour. Doesn't change the fact that he'd, probably quite happily, personally crush-throttle the life out of all our favorite characters at his time and pleasure, if he had the physical strength to bring them down. Maybe the producers need to do that to shatter the illusion of such philosophical motives....

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

You guys are forgetting Vivio.

Remember that the whole "getting Relics" thing was a happy bonus - finding her was the jackpot. He's got something to do with her, something involving the holy whatsitcalled; possibly she's the host for whatever he's planning on creating. (But she's not irreplaceable, else they wouldn't have tried zapping the copter she was in.)

It's not really the issue of being irreplaceable... If she was the real deal, that copter zap wouldn't kill her anyway.

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

You guys are forgetting Vivio.

Remember that the whole "getting Relics" thing was a happy bonus - finding her was the jackpot. He's got something to do with her, something involving the holy whatsitcalled; possibly she's the host for whatever he's planning on creating. (But she's not irreplaceable, else they wouldn't have tried zapping the copter she was in.)

The real question is, where did she come from? She didn't come from Jail's organization. Is there still a Project F lab somewhere? Was she a military prototype? It's significant that there's a "holy" involved; we only have one church in the show so far, folks, so it's entirely possible that they're involved somehow. And boy, wouldn't that suck? ;p

Had a nasty thought about Regius. Why didn't he take heed, bulk up, prevent the attack, when it makes him look incompetent? What if he agrees with Jail in the first place? By sacrificing his own HQ, he pounds home the point that current TSAB doctrine is inferior, and opens up the perfect opportunity for him to push for combat cyborgs in his own force... and what do you know, here's a guy who has the technology and production facilities handy, how nice, how nice. Were they working together from the beginning? Or is Regius just a small-minded twit? We do know that he thinks he has a superweapon under his belt... could be cyborgs, could be whatever produced Vivio, could be something completely different.

well Vivio was labeled by the Numbers "the vessel of saints". So I'm guessing theres more to Scaglietti's plan than this.

Forgot about Regius, what did he do in this episode anyways?
he didn't even prevent the attacks being executed in this battle with his own troops?
this makes him even more suspicious if he's in cooperation with Scaglietti and his creation of the Einjehars...I'm also awaiting the awakening of Regius' Einjehars and how it will impact the way how these turn of events have turned out.
I'm guessing Vivio could be the key to these Einjehars and that Regius could be in fact, be Scaglietti's so called client.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Fabien

RF6's first priority is to find and rescue Vivio and Ginga. That means finding Jail.
Which means, the more of his minions they capture alive, the more chances they have to gain some information, the better.

True.
But I personally don't think many of RF6 will care about the diplomatic solution after an unprovoked attack. But if taking some Numbers down leads to Jail, then that'd work too.

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

Had a nasty thought about Regius. Why didn't he take heed, bulk up, prevent the attack, when it makes him look incompetent? What if he agrees with Jail in the first place? By sacrificing his own HQ, he pounds home the point that current TSAB doctrine is inferior, and opens up the perfect opportunity for him to push for combat cyborgs in his own force... and what do you know, here's a guy who has the technology and production facilities handy, how nice, how nice. Were they working together from the beginning? Or is Regius just a small-minded twit? We do know that he thinks he has a superweapon under his belt... could be cyborgs, could be whatever produced Vivio, could be something completely different.

Nice line of thought, actually.
As they say, the plot thickens.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

And you seem clouded about the TSAB, they HAVE to use violence sometimes because criminals don't go peacefully.

From TSAB's point of vue: Jail is a Bad Guy, you have to stop him by any means necessary, including violence.
From Jail's point of vue: TSAB are Bads Guys, you have to stop them by any means necessary, including violence.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, but you also said that he treasures life.

I really don't think I used that word.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Yup, except that injust law only seems to apply to HIM.

Yes and no. He thinks that TSAB's law hampers humanity's development.

[Mirificus]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Someone in an earlier episode discussion suggested that Subaru would be dual-wielding by the end of the series. This episode suggests that just might happen.

It looks like the numbers stripped Ginga's knuckle and skates. It didn't look like any of the numbers picked them up before fleeing so presumably they've been left behind.

Originally Posted by Fabien

From TSAB's point of vue: Jail is a Bad Guy, you have to stop him by any means necessary, including violence.
From Jail's point of vue: TSAB are Bads Guys, you have to stop them by any means necessary, including violence.

I don't really see how any of that entitles Jail to a pre-emptive strike on the TSAB and the RF6 HQ, let alone kidnapping anyone he pleases.

[Burner of Anime]

Here's the big irony of Dr. J asking people to get out of the building while he's redecorating- how is the entire crew going to get out when surrounded by a legion of AMF hax drones? The hax means there will be no teleporting, phasing and flying for anyone capable of doing so. Doesn't help that the drone have only one setting, Kill all opposition.

These guys are worse than Daleks, at least the cans from Dr. Who can't climb stairs [later models levitate though ].

I envision the next few episodes will be about R6 being dismantled and eventually going rogue with their coincedently "decomissioned" ship, Subaru's Emo time with dad and Erio having to deal with being severely underpowered [as usual].

[Julius Firefocht]

So...if Subaru is a cyborg, what is the little girl that Nanoha saved right at the start of episode 1? I don't think cyborgs can grow into teenagehood naturally.

There has to be some other explanation to this. Maybe the arm that was injured was merely a cybernetic replacement, and the body itself is still largely organic.

Or maybe, just maybe, it is a plothole that will be conveniently forgotten and never resolved.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Burner of Anime

Here's the big irony of Dr. J asking people to get out of the building while he's redecorating- how is the entire crew going to get out when surrounded by a legion of AMF hax drones? The hax means there will be no teleporting, phasing and flying for anyone capable of doing so. Doesn't help that the drone have only one setting, Kill all opposition.

Correction. The drones were no longer lethal by the time of the announcement. We could see Teana helping with evacuations WHILE the drones were flying around just several meters away.

Originally Posted by Julius Firefocht

So...if Subaru is a cyborg, what is the little girl that Nanoha saved right at the start of episode 1? I don't think cyborgs can grow into teenagehood naturally.

There has to be some other explanation to this. Maybe the arm that was injured was merely a cybernetic replacement, and the body itself is still largely organic.

Or maybe, just maybe, it is a plothole that will be conveniently forgotten and never resolved.

Well, until we get a clearer explanation, be it from Jail, Subaru, Mariel, Genya, whoever involved...

Magic. And it's clearly not just the arms. We saw some small holes on Subaru's abdomen, and there was no blood flowing from it... I think. And the eyes as well.