Nanoha Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Interesting question, because right now the heroes needs to realize that merely relying on love, courage, hope and all that stuff ain't gonna cut it. They need a smart guy here.

Is Graham still alive? His actions during A's were definitely debatable, ruthless and cruel, but at least he's a man with a plan. Or perhaps for the less morally questionable flavor they can call Chrono. Unlike the others he's not reckless and is cautious, which right now is better than what we have.

To give you some credit, having Graham at the wheel of section Six sounds pretty interesting, also the conditions are good for it, in order to protect the fruits of Hayate's hard work he re-appears to take care of ehr unit while she recovers. the only thing that interfers with this beautiful theory is the fact that Graham quited his charge at the end of A's, so unless he find a way to "get back from retirement" having him back will be only a dream. Chrono is another very good option but i don't know if his rank and occupations will allow him to take the front seat of S6.

Oh and love, courage and hope are failed because they're played very dully on purpouse. Said elements never got trouble mixing with skill, strategies and cunningness before. Tsuzuki make the A's cast stupid in order to let the Hucks shine. Which is a shame because this is bad for the Hucks themselves, fortunately some of them are started to show to be really able to top some of the old cast at their own game without being total dicks about it(Deville *0* ...and possibly Karen). They look like a much more legitimate threat now.

Originally Posted by itanshi1

its as if Force is deconstructing StrikerS

To me FORCE is trying to deconstruct the entire series, or at least from A's onwards(the key word is "trying" xDU).

EDIT: Page claimed for love, courage and HOPE!

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Cosidering how things turned out it's not like this hans't happened before but it was never happened with this intensity. This is like the massive worfing of StrikerS Ch. 16-17 turned Up to Eleven.

Again, you can thank censorship for that. It should be clear by now, with nipples and violence, that the manga is freer to be more realistic. And even then, you had Vita stabbed in the back and Nanoha stabbed bad enough that she couldn't walk for a long period of time (implying spinal injury). So Hayate is merely getting what Nanoha and Vita have received previously.

In short, not much is new.

Originally Posted by Sheba

The problem that /m/ have pointed out is the blatant titular character and most popular characters shields that Nanoha and Fate ARE wearing. Meaning that the most grievious wounds and whatever sadistic shit thrown at the two of them are likely reflected back onto Yagami-ke. This brought the whole "Does Tsuzuki fucking hate them or something?" question; to me, it bring the question, "Is Tsuzuki SO ENSLAVED to the popularity of Nanoha and Fate that the only times he can HURT the both of them, as in critical wounds, near death experience, etc are in flashbacks?"

We disagree from time to time, but I find myself agreeing here. Fate rescuing Nanoha and pretty much being free from any real damage, seems like deliberate pandering. Nanoha didn't need Fate to save her when she was in the Cradle, and I find it very unlikely Deville should have been able to get the drop on her like that.

In my opinion, that kind of writing is fucking bullshit, if you call this war, I call it War on Easy Modo.

To be fair, this could very well be the opening salvo of the war. It definitely ain't pretty.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

You know what's one of the most fundamental rule of air combat? In principle, it is better to attack in groups (of four or six). Nanoha didn't even bother to get a wingman, maybe rendezvousing with Fate before resuming her pursuit, before attacking and almost lost her head as a result. She was lucky Fate managed to do her dramatic rescue.

Know what's sad? After all her lessons in StrikerS about teamwork and all, she chose to fly solo against an enemy of unknown but presumably very dangerous capability. Which means that the Aggressors are actually taught to fight as a team and yet she, supposedly Ace of Aces, ignored all that.

You know what you're forgetting? That there is only a limited number of the AEC devices, and thus only a limited number of people who have any chance at all. And sometimes, in combat, you have to go it alone. Nanoha and Vita went alone once they parted in the cradle. You go back through the series, and you'll find many instances of characters going it alone.

Sometimes you have no choice, and in this instance, Touma was judged to be a significant threat (he did just one-shot practically everyone), and no one else was ready. Nanoha had to go now, and everyone else would catch up when they could (Subaru and Fate, presumably, are going to show up).

Is Graham still alive? His actions during A's were definitely debatable, ruthless and cruel, but at least he's a man with a plan. Or perhaps for the less morally questionable flavor they can call Chrono. Unlike the others he's not reckless and is cautious, which right now is better than what we have.

Except his plan was flawed from the start, as Chrono called him on it. Graham's plan was to freeze it, but Chrono rightly pointed out that it wouldn't be hard for someone to unfreeze it, and thus they'd be right back to where they were, except with the blood of a dead girl on their hands.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

You know what's one of the most fundamental rule of air combat? In principle, it is better to attack in groups (of four or six). Nanoha didn't even bother to get a wingman, maybe rendezvousing with Fate before resuming her pursuit, before attacking and almost lost her head as a result. She was lucky Fate managed to do her dramatic rescue.

So no, they didn't even try standard military. And this is still shounen, only with military uniforms.

Know what's sad? After all her lessons in StrikerS about teamwork and all, she chose to fly solo against an enemy of unknown but presumably very dangerous capability. Which means that the Aggressors are actually taught to fight as a team and yet she, supposedly Ace of Aces, ignored all that.

I'm starting to suspect she got Victory Disease.

Remember that she is not the fírst old cast member to forget that simple rule on Force...

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

EDIT: Page claimed for love, courage and HOPE!

Why is it that every time you claim a page, you always link to that one group? ...oh wait, don't answer that.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Again, you can thank censorship for that. It should be clear by now, with nipples and violence, that the manga is freer to be more realistic. And even then, you had Vita stabbed in the back and Nanoha stabbed bad enough that she couldn't walk for a long period of time (implying spinal injury). So Hayate is merely getting what Nanoha and Vita have received previously.

In short, not much is new.

Except for a couple of little pretty factors that are, in fact, new:

- Vita's super regeneration was still in play with considerable force at the time. Signum is the clear example that said healing factor has nearly stopped to work(otherwise Signum should be able to stand up depite the impalement and also Vita herself seems unable to repeat the same feat after being taken down by Karen).
- Nanoha was critically injuried IN A FLASHBACK with more than enough time to rest and recover before the main event, Hayate and Signum(and possibly Vita adn Erio) were slashed right at the moment and didn't count with said conveniently large time gap to restore.

Similar? Yes. The same? Damn No.

[Justin_Brett]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If you endlessly tease of death, but never take the steps, your audience will eventually figure it out. We've had actual death, mass death, and severe injury of our heroes, which hasn't happened before. It does put the whole risk thing back into play. Regardless of whether you find the Huck's boring or not, you have to at least agree that the risk is there. You can tell easily from a lot of people here wondering if Signum was gonna live, and now Hayate.

Hell no. Just because they can kill people does not make them dangerous by itself; the only one who's the LEAST bit intimidating personality-wise is Veyron (the weakest one so far, I should point out). It just feels like Tsuzuki can't come up with any justification for why they're dangerous other than that they can almost-but-not-quite kill characters.

Do you remember that series of Bleach chapters where Aizen was soloing all the Soul Society captains? Were people afraid of him then? No: he was the same meme joke he'd been for a while.

As for tactics, well, if they were all smart like that, the Hucks might, I dunno, lose. Can't have that.

[Laevatein]

The main problem with the whole Huckebein battle is that it's gone past "establishing the villains as a threat" and has now gone into sadism territory.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

- Vita's super regeneration was still in play with considerable force at the time. Signum is the clear example that said healing factor has nearly stopped to work(otherwise Signum should be able to stand up depite the impalement and also Vita herself seems unable to repeat the same feat after being taken down by Karen).
- Nanoha was critically injuried IN A FLASHBACK with more than enough time to rest and recover before the main event, Hayate and Signum(and possibly Vita adn Erio) were slashed right at the moment and didn't count with said conveniently large time gap to restore.

Similar? Yes. The same? Damn No.

Of course nothing is the exact same. If it were, we'd be reading the same story. All I needed to point out, though, was that things were similar, and what was happening now, was pretty much what happened before. Thus, no one should be too surprised or upset about it.

And one thing to keep in mind about Signum and Vita, who are both magical programs; Vita was stabbed a plain old dagger object. Signum was stabbed by someone who is anti-magic in human form, with an anti-magic blade. Yeah, common sense tells me Signum would come off worse for the wear. And also that she might be a bit more human at this point.

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Hell no. Just because they can kill people does not make them dangerous by itself; the only one who's the LEAST bit intimidating personality-wise is Veyron (the weakest one so far, I should point out). It just feels like Tsuzuki can't come up with any justification for why they're dangerous other than that they can almost-but-not-quite kill characters.

You don't see a group of anti-magic villains in a magic-based society as dangerous? So you just kinda shrug off the hundreds of confirmed kills they've had so far? You shrug off the fact that they've been laughing at the TSAB for who knows how many years now?

Do you remember that series of Bleach chapters where Aizen was soloing all the Soul Society captains? Were people afraid of him then? No: he was the same meme joke he'd been for a while.

I do, but you really should avoid bringing up Bleach comparisons. It's a fairly poor series that straight shounen and fights, no matter how stupid or draw-out the plot needs to get to assist the duels. Aizen was a joke because Bleach was a joke. It jumped the shark after the Rukia rescue arc (and arguably, not long before that).

Villains need to continually be a threat. You can't just establish them as threatening in act 1, and then have the heroes overpower them in act 2, but somehow the villains are still around. If the Hucks were taken down in the last few chapters, everyone here would be laughing at how they built up these bad guys, only to easily knock them down.

"Well, that was... stupid. They built up these bad guys as unstoppable, only for Section six to take them down like drones."

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Hell no. Just because they can kill people does not make them dangerous by itself; the only one who's the LEAST bit intimidating personality-wise is Veyron (the weakest one so far, I should point out). It just feels like Tsuzuki can't come up with any justification for why they're dangerous other than that they can almost-but-not-quite kill characters.

I have one question for you: Are you me? Because you express all my thoughts before I can even write them down.

Originally Posted by Laevatein

The main problem with the whole Huckebein battle is that it's gone past "establishing the villains as a threat" and has now gone into sadism territory.

No, the main problem is that the first-battle-to-establish-the-new-villains-as-a-credible-threat has dragged on since frigging June 2010. But the sadism is definitely present, too. Sadism towards the fans, I might add.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You don't see a group of anti-magic villains in a magic-based society as dangerous? So you just kinda shrug off the hundreds of confirmed kills they've had so far? You shrug off the fact that they've been laughing at the TSAB for who knows how many years now?

Back on The Wiki That Must Not Be Named, all the facts you named are called "Informed Attribute" and violate the little something called "Show Don't Tell rule". Just sayin'...

[aers]

How are they supposed to show all this stuff you want them to show in a monthly manga that barely gets 32 pages, and half the time gets 16 page half-chapters?

For that matter I don't know how they're doing anything at all in such a limited format.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You know what you're forgetting? That there is only a limited number of the AEC devices, and thus only a limited number of people who have any chance at all. And sometimes, in combat, you have to go it alone. Nanoha and Vita went alone once they parted in the cradle. You go back through the series, and you'll find many instances of characters going it alone.

Ah, but soon Touma opened fire on all of them, Huckebein and MS6, only to retreat after wards and being uninterested on attacking unless provoked. Nanoha knew that DeVille is right behind her, so instead of chasing Touma and make her tail vulnerable, she should have faced DeVille for at least until Fate arrived and then let her deal with him while Nanoha continue to pursue Touma.

On the off-chance that DeVille skipped her and went straight to 'rescue' Touma? Even better! Touma is currently attacking everyone, so let the two duke it out while she waits for Fate; they'll only need to handle whoever survived the exchange (which btw was Chrono's plan during TOS... I can understand child Nanoha refusing to use this, but Ace-of-Aces Nanoha? Honor is Signum's shtick, not hers)

Except his plan was flawed from the start, as Chrono called him on it. Graham's plan was to freeze it, but Chrono rightly pointed out that it wouldn't be hard for someone to unfreeze it, and thus they'd be right back to where they were, except with the blood of a dead girl on their hands.

Chrono it is, then.

[00-Raiser]

Oh yeah, they really hate that Yagami family. That must be why they're getting another magazine image... Oh wai~



So yeah, looks like some good stuff. Yagami-ke in the bath, Isis and Lily in the bath, Nanoha and Fate in the bath with Hayate and Rein in there too.

Oh, and Cypha showing off the goods on her motorcycle.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

Back on The Wiki That Must Not Be Named, all the facts you named are called "Informed Attribute" and violate the little something called "Show Don't Tell rule". Just sayin'...

Not informed; we outright see it, with how they shrugged off the Wolfram's cannon. We see it between Cypha and Signum, where Cypha admitted to killing a village full of people. We see it in their fight where Cypha dominates Signum despite getting an arm cut off.

I mean, how much more do you want? As aers pointed out, they don't exactly have all the time in the world to show several chapters worth of the Hucks wailing on the TSAB. It would get old real fast.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Ah, but soon Touma opened fire on all of them, Huckebein and MS6, only to retreat after wards and being uninterested on attacking unless provoked. Nanoha knew that DeVille is right behind her, so instead of chasing Touma and make her tail vulnerable, she should have faced DeVille for at least until Fate arrived and then let her deal with him while Nanoha continue to pursue Touma.

Read the manga again. Nanoha does prepare herself to fight Deville, knowing he's on the way. She prepares to abandon her pursuit of Touma to deal with her own pursuer. It was only his teleport hop that got the drop on her, that made it dangerous; something she couldn't have known he'd be able to do.

So, we had 2 choices:

#1. Nanoha is the only one ready, and we want to save/stop Touma as soon as possible. So head on out and stop him if you can, but be prepared to abandon the idea if it looks unfeasible, possibly due to a Huck coming after you.

#2. Sit back and do nothing, and most likely lose Touma to either the Hucks, or have him do something potentially more dangerous (such as another soul shout).

On the off-chance that DeVille skipped her and went straight to 'rescue' Touma? Even better! Touma is currently attacking everyone, so let the two duke it out while she waits for Fate; they'll only need to handle whoever survived the exchange (which btw was Chrono's plan during TOS... I can understand child Nanoha refusing to use this, but Ace-of-Aces Nanoha? Honor is Signum's shtick, not hers)

Saving people is Nanoha's shtick. Thus, her attempt to save Touma completely fits. If you expect Nanoha to sit back and let killers attempt to take someone who Subaru cares about, then you don't know Nanoha. This wouldn't have been a Nanoha series if she didn't.

In fact, I bet you'd rightly call BS if Nanoha said something like, "Hmm, I could save Touma, but I won't. Too risky. I'll just let the bloodthirsty killers handle him."

Chrono it is, then.

Chrono was against using Hayate as a sacrifice even before he deduced the flaw in the plan. Thus he's not someone with a plan who has the cold balls to follow through on it, especially since he presented options to the group and let them decide. Thus, he's not someone who fits your earlier argument.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Oh yeah, they really hate that Yagami family. That must be why they're getting another magazine image... Oh wai~



So yeah, looks like some good stuff. Yagami-ke in the bath, Isis and Lily in the bath, Nanoha and Fate in the bath with Hayate and Rein in there too.

Oh, and Cypha showing off the goods on her motorcycle.

Is it just me, or does the Dog Days picture really look like Erio and Caro?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

On the off-chance that DeVille skipped her and went straight to 'rescue' Touma? Even better! Touma is currently attacking everyone, so let the two duke it out while she waits for Fate; they'll only need to handle whoever survived the exchange (which btw was Chrono's plan during TOS... I can understand child Nanoha refusing to use this, but Ace-of-Aces Nanoha? Honor is Signum's shtick, not hers).

As offesive as that sounds i must admit that you touch a very valid point there, Nanoha isn't the type of fight who lose the chance of taking advantage of an opponent(like you said Signum's fighting styl is more honorable). the Ace of aces showed to be very pragmatic in combat, thus i find jarring why she suddenly starts to make clumsy decisions in spite of a very real threat, she also seems to be pretty over confident during the last chapters(at least until she feels Deville's breath right behind her neck), probably she's overconfident on of her new shinny weapons? probably she wants to prove that the Ace of Aces can't be taken down so easilly? She thinks she's the "choosen one" when we talk about "befriending someone back to the side of good". whatever motivation she has, that behavior is vary rare for Nanoha, while she acted prideful or fighted to help someone before, she rarely acted over-confident.

The only two times that came to my mind are when she fight Vita for the first time in A's and also during her first battle with Fate in The MOVIE 1st, and ends curbstomped both tim- ....wait, oh no, i hope that i'm not to be right this time o_O!

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Oh yeah, they really hate that Yagami family. That must be why they're getting another magazine image... Oh wai~

To me those feels more like apologizes or eye candy to make us forget of what's happening, if i remeber correctly Signum's "Summer Hot" picture came out right after she's showed to be alive in FORCE, like saying "Well, Signum's out of comission but hey! look at this! it's a new poster! an she's still hot!". Great, the Yagami family is getting choped but at least we have posters, whoop-dee-doo!

[aers]

Kaijo: A lot of the Dog Days character designs are reminiscent of Nanoha ones. I guess it doesn't help that the art style is exactly the same, heh.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Not informed; we outright see it, with how they shrugged off the Wolfram's cannon. We see it between Cypha and Signum, where Cypha admitted to killing a village full of people. We see it in their fight where Cypha dominates Signum despite getting an arm cut off.

How convenient is to forget that cypha dominate because her abiliti or REGROW SEVERED LIMBS, she have her two arms when she re-starts the fight so that didn't really count as a disadvantage at all.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I mean, how much more do you want? As aers pointed out, they don't exactly have all the time in the world to show several chapters worth of the Hucks wailing on the TSAB. It would get old real fast.

The sad part is that FORCE is currently doing exactly that xDU. But if things are like you two say, this is probably the Blackest Night watitng for the Brightest Day to come. C'mon Tsuzuki you still have time to perform a Book Ex Machina for the Wolkenritter xD.

[Kaijo]

@aers: It's not just the art style... she's wearing a pink outfit with pink hair, and he's got a white overcoat hiding a red inner coat. If his hair was red, I bet no one here would think they were anyone but Erio and Caro without a second, closer glance. Hell, it was only "Erio's" hair color that made me take a second look, wondering if someone got the color wrong.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

As offesive as that sounds i must admit that you touch a very valid point there, Nanoha isn't the type of fight who lose the chance of taking advantage of an opponent(like you said Signum's fighting styl is more honorable). the Ace of aces showed to be very pragmatic in combat, thus i find jarring why she suddenly starts to make clumsy decisions in spite of a very real threat, she also seems to be pretty over confident during the last chapters(at least until she feels Deville's breath right behind her neck), probably she's overconfident on of her new shinny weapons? probably she wants to prove that the Ace of Aces can't be taken down so easilly? She thinks she's the "choosen one" when we talk about "befriending someone back to the side of good". whatever motivation she has, that behavior is vary rare for Nanoha, while she acted prideful or fighted to help someone before, she rarely acted over-confident.

The only problem is that Nanoha has also been someone to go to great lengths to save people. Witness A's SLB despite her being injured and RH damaged, as well as a hand sticking out of her chest. Or her putting RH into Excelion mode to defeat Reinforce, risking her life and RH's in the process.

I'd really argue again: If Nanoha gave up on saving Touma, she wouldn't be the Nanoha we know. And we'd get all sorts of people calling BS on it. She's not overconfident, but taking the same chance she always does, because it's the right thing to do.

[Justin_Brett]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You don't see a group of anti-magic villains in a magic-based society as dangerous? So you just kinda shrug off the hundreds of confirmed kills they've had so far? You shrug off the fact that they've been laughing at the TSAB for who knows how many years now?

I do, but you really should avoid bringing up Bleach comparisons. It's a fairly poor series that straight shounen and fights, no matter how stupid or draw-out the plot needs to get to assist the duels. Aizen was a joke because Bleach was a joke. It jumped the shark after the Rukia rescue arc (and arguably, not long before that).

Villains need to continually be a threat. You can't just establish them as threatening in act 1, and then have the heroes overpower them in act 2, but somehow the villains are still around. If the Hucks were taken down in the last few chapters, everyone here would be laughing at how they built up these bad guys, only to easily knock them down.

"Well, that was... stupid. They built up these bad guys as unstoppable, only for Section six to take them down like drones."

Now you're sounding like Aki. It's seven people, dude. Don't mention the scientists or foreshadowing, because those are -theories- for the most part. As of now, it's just one group of assholes with an ego problem. If they're supposed to be a threat to entire WORLDS, they're really going to have to up the ante.

And I didn't mean to compare the two series, just the situation: the author playing up a villain, or group of villains, as really tough or badass when a lot of people don't really see it.

I'm also not saying they need to lose here (even if I'd enjoy it), but you need to provide SOME glimmer of hope for the heroes to win, or that's bad writing too. The AEC equipment was supposed to be that, but apparently not now.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'd really argue again: If Nanoha gave up on saving Touma, she wouldn't be the Nanoha we know. And we'd get all sorts of people calling BS on it. She's not overconfident, but taking the same chance she always does, because it's the right thing to do.

No one is talking about on giving up on Tohma, we're only talking about how Nanoha acted a bit prideful here. Seh has better choices to ease things a little and get more efficient results but she behaves like if her team have the high ground when the reality is that the Huckebein is plmmering them to the ground one by one. Fortunately Deville's intervention will most likely make her to put her feets on the ground(...methaporically speaking of course xDU) and be again the brave AND smart Nanoha we know and love. I have a bad feeling on this fight because like i posted before, the only two times in the past she started a fight with that attitude she ended up with her ass handed to her.

[Justin_Brett]

Also, I have to admit, Cypha looks way better in that artstyle than her NEXT picture.

[itanshi1]

So are we wanting cliches or nuances? The weapons failing (or just unable to connect) is a nuance. Sure made this place active. It sounds like a success to me.