Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Tak

2. Provide base of operations for NUNs occupation to act as a strategic foothold for the Brísingamen Sector. Sell that point to the NUN, since Windermere suffered the least collateral damage while other planets within the sector are busy rebuilding.

I don't think that one's gonna fly. Windermere never was much at the best of times, industrially speaking, and the DE didn't arrange things. Any base there would be a pain in the ass to get to or from. I suppose it could be used for storage of things you don't want anybody to get, but it's a planet full of people who can't be trusted.

And did the other planets really suffer much in the way of infrastructure damage?

[Matts]

They lost a lot of people at the very least. Nobody thinks of Al Shahal. Probably not even the staff.

Tak, you are being way too kind assuming little Baked Beans has any shot in the world of actual politics. Realisticly speaking a lot of stuff could happen, going by the show's tone, not much will.
If I let myself dream and take the first option, either people take on talks and politics while king beannie quietly calcifies away in like a year, or my favourite option happens, a rebellion to overthrow this disaster of a monarchy. That would show the wind care about their planet and people, and what they did. Something the show never touched on, even remotely. The hivemind united planet under one monarch creeps the hell out of me. But this won't happen because rune pikachu or something.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I don't think that one's gonna fly. Windermere never was much at the best of times, industrially speaking, and the DE didn't arrange things. Any base there would be a pain in the ass to get to or from.

Thats why I also said, make stuff up. Sell the strategic location to the NUN, no matter how trivial it sounds. This is for conducting peace with the NUN and only with the NUN. By inviting a NUNs occupation force, it would help stave off further political discomfort that Windermere has to participate.

Moreover, a base was already present in Windermere, it was only abandoned because of Windermere Independence. In a world where FTL travel is commonplace, Windermere is hardly a difficult place to get to. It was noted that the presence of the NUNs base in Windermere helped uplift Windermere, but the latter simply chose not to continue that relationship.

Originally Posted by Matts

The hivemind united planet under one monarch creeps the hell out of me. But this won't happen because rune pikachu or something.

Different races have different government preferences. Let them have theirs.

If Windermere managed to strategically tackle NUNs militarily and politically, forcing the NUNs to respect Windermere and bring NUN to the peace tables without going whacko trying to mindrape the galaxy, I would have remained cheering for Windermere (essentially pulling a Lelouch). At least in that scenario, Windermere would have been able to negotiate from a position of some sustainable strength. Hell, they could even bring the several members of the Brísingamen into an alliance if Windermere had stuck to more conventional means of resisting the NUN. Unfortunately, Windermere chose the wrong methods.

- - - - -

Oh, and here is another viable option. Windermere to provide NUNs with members to the anti-Var combat unit. While Var can no longer be manipulated, it is still an epidemic.

- Tak

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Tak

Thats why I also said, make stuff up. Sell the strategic location to the NUN, no matter how trivial it sounds. This is for conducting peace with the NUN and only with the NUN. By inviting a NUNs occupation force, it would help stave off further political discomfort that Windermere has to participate.

Moreover, a base was already present in Windermere, it was only abandoned because of Windermere Independence. In a world where FTL travel is commonplace, Windermere is hardly a difficult place to get to. It was noted that the presence of the NUNs base in Windermere helped uplift Windermere, but the latter simply chose not to continue that relationship.

- Tak

The DE specifically made Windermere the one planet in maybe the whole galaxy (certainly in the sector) that's hard to get to. I don't know how they sold enough apples to afford space planes. They've got to be extraordinarily good apples.

(But yeah, I agree Windermere should bend and spread for the NUN.)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The DE specifically made Windermere the one planet in maybe the whole galaxy (certainly in the sector) that's hard to get to. I don't know how they sold enough apples to afford space planes. They've got to be extraordinarily good apples.

(But yeah, I agree Windermere should bend and spread for the NUN.)

The NUNs do have vessels capable of breaking through fold faults, but frontier vessels were probably neglected. OTOH, lets give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Windermere's DE problems were resolved via destruction of Protoculture ruins that just so happen to nullify fold faults within the vicinity.

- Tak

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The DE specifically made Windermere the one planet in maybe the whole galaxy (certainly in the sector) that's hard to get to. I don't know how they sold enough apples to afford space planes. They've got to be

Windermere basically screwed their own major export by using their apples as a part of their attempt to poison other civilizations. I don't care how good their apples tasted, after the reveal of the link of Var with these apples, people are going to ban these things like they would mad cow beef.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Windermere basically screwed their own major export by using their apples as a part of their attempt to poison other civilizations. I don't care how good their apples tasted, after the reveal of the link of Var with these apples, people are going to ban these things like they would mad cow beef.

For some odd reason I am imagining recreational use with Var...

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

If Windermere managed to strategically tackle NUNs militarily and politically, forcing the NUNs to respect Windermere and bring NUN to the peace tables without going whacko trying to mindrape the galaxy, I would have remained cheering for Windermere (essentially pulling a Lelouch). At least in that scenario, Windermere would have been able to negotiate from a position of some sustainable strength. Hell, they could even bring the several members of the Brísingamen into an alliance if Windermere had stuck to more conventional means of resisting the NUN. Unfortunately, Windermere chose the wrong methods.


- Tak

What do you think did the politics of windermere tried prior to the events? And prior to the drop of the DE, the local units commander treated the common people like shit. Would you respect someone if you were treated wrong from the beginning? All the events prior to the start to the anime doomed windermere to raise their hands against the ones who treated them wrong. Btw. there is a hint that some assholes were stationed on windermere.
Episode 23: Arad: The 53rd Air Division was stationed here. Bunch of self-centered, over-confident pricks, but all great pilots.

I know you like that the idea that the runes are some sort of an sexual organ, but they aren't. And it's not a mindRAPE because the mind control is are not out of an sexual instinct or forced sexual mental intention.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Windermere basically screwed their own major export by using their apples as a part of their attempt to poison other civilizations. I don't care how good their apples tasted, after the reveal of the link of Var with these apples, people are going to ban these things like they would mad cow beef.

windermere apples are only a threat in combination with ruin water. Isolate the minerals that reacts with the apple?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I know you like that the idea that the runes are some sort of an sexual organ, but they aren't. And it's not a mindRAPE because the mind control is are not out of an sexual instinct or forced sexual mental intention.

Where da heck did ya git dis idea!?

- Tak

[Matts]

Mindrape is a term some people use to describe mindcontrol. Rape is about forcing your control over someone either without that person consenting, or out right telling you "no". It's violating someone's body as well as their desires, which can scar a person for life. While I don't like the term mindrape I see why people use it, controlling someone's actions against their own will, invading their mind and taking away their free will is the most intimate form of violating an individual.

In short, Father Hentai, when people use this term they don't mean anything sexual.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

windermere apples are only a threat in combination with ruin water. Isolate the minerals that reacts with the apple?

You seem to not understand my point, that Windermere is no longer a trusted food supplier after they intentionally used food as a weapon. And that there is nothing that Windermere can do to undo this damage for as long as they insist that it is entirely justified. As long as Windermere claim there is nothing wrong with using food as a weapon, they will never again be able to export their crops.

Would YOU eat Windermere apples? Would you feed these same apples to your family?

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The DE specifically made Windermere the one planet in maybe the whole galaxy (certainly in the sector) that's hard to get to. I don't know how they sold enough apples to afford space planes. They've got to be extraordinarily good apples.

(But yeah, I agree Windermere should bend and spread for the NUN.)

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...Mg2016smmr.php
"It's on the edge of the galaxy, and we hypothesized that it was the last place that the Protoculture struggled on to. The influence of the New Unified Government is extremely low in it. And so, as it hasn't suffered from the attacks of the Zentrādi and so on up until recently, many [Protoculture] ruins and so forth have been left in it. The globular cluster also features many dimensional faults; Windermere in particular is surrounded by them, and was quite difficult to find. The fleet that took the time to fly through the dimensional faults in the past found Windermere by chance, and started the relationship between Windermerians and Earth humans. There are no means to go directly to Windermere, and its development has been delayed." (Kawamori)

Fold Faults has always been there. Windermere isn't using the Super Fold Booster technology developed by LAI but the point to point Fold gate system derived from the Sigur Valens which was reverse engineered by Epsilon Foundation.

This was how Windermere deployed and retrieved the Aerial Knights without Fold Boosters.

Similar to the point to point Fold Stones on Ouroboros' ruins which can transport a VF from one part of the ruin to another.

Originally Posted by charles883

Then why the heck NUNS banned dimensional weapon in the fist place yet they themselves illegally use it.

It was the New UN Government that restricted the use of MDE weapons in its treaties much like Reaction Weapons. The NUNG is more like the EU than the US.

NUNS is like NATO a military alliance. The Brisingr Alliance has more political sway in the the cluster than the NUNG which according to Kawamori has low presence in it.

Originally Posted by charles883

To me no matter what justification, it is wrong to Use WMD as solution of any problem as it become dangerous in very long term as like Wattfield says, people will become easier to pull trigger to kill if they use it constantly as if NUNS will jump into very dangerous slope as if they see using WMD as easiest solution to their problem . Also what stopping them using Dimensional Eater bomb if they do not change as NUNS will use any slightest excuse to consider threat like NUNS planet protest or just discover Protoculture weapon that not functional, NUNS then destroy entire planet to end problem and commit genocide and cover up. To me it wrong to commit genocide on other to save your sorry ass as who decide which species should survive or die and what makes human more special than other species. To me all children of Protoculture are same with their own strength and weakness. ALSO NUNS already prosper a there trillion human population now, So I do not consider Near Extinction Events.

Anime analogy in corrupt NUNS that YOU for some reason support their genocide act to 'save' humanity: Titan, Earth Alliance, A-LAWS

Oh the sanctimonious rant of someone who is ignorant both on real politik and the fictional setting.

No Earth humans are not in the billions or trillions. Macross Frontier has 10 million, Macross 7 has 1 million, Sephira where Macross 4 had colonized 6 million in the beginning.

The Brisingr Globular Cluster has 8 billion people on account it has native races that were not wiped out by the Zentradi.

One Zentradi main fleet has 7 billion troops and there are 2000 to 3000 fleets out there aside from the Supervision Army.

Only 8 million Zentradi defected to Earth when the human population was decimated to 1 million from 10 billion people. They had to repopulate with cloning but they had to stop as hereditary diseases started affecting children.

There are entire fleets lost due to plague or fold faults or attacked. Even planets aren't safe as seen with Sephira which was attacked in 2059 by Lost Zentradi, uncultured ones which devastated it. Earth was almost invaded by a medium Lost Zentradi fleet with a Mobile Fortress in 2047 backed by Anti-Earth Zentradi rebels that left Earth.

Learn to differentiate between the NUNG and NUNS. One is a political and economic alliance the other is a military alliance of various sovereign state militias which only pay lip service to Federal NUNS on Earth. Macross Galaxy NUNS was supposed to give full specs of the VF-27 to NUNS HQ on Earth but didn't because their government rebelled. Macross Frontier NUNS didn't inform Earth they would invade the Vajra. SMS was the one who had to inform Earth and the NUNG of the whole clusterfrak which includes the 33rd Marines wiped out with Galia 4.

Thus we have NUNS forces who answer more to local governments than to the NUNG.

To reorganize NUNS means centralization and UN Spacy already had a little civil war over it before the name change. They were still called UN Spacy when the UNG switched into the NUNG in decentralization. Earth UN Spacy special forces went rogue attacking frontier planets UN Spacy on pretext of suppressing Anti-UN forces whom they supplied with weapons through a third party that happens to be associated with Macross Galaxy cabal. (Macross VF-X2)

Why do you think Earth didn't send its Federal NUNS forces who are equipped with cutting edge VF-24 which are just as good or better than YF-29? They have bigger threats out there to watch and politically they'd be stepping Brisingr Alliance NUNS turf.

When Windermere threatened to mind control the galaxy the NUNG approved the use of MDE to stop them as seen on episode 25.

Reaction Weapons which were their most devastating weapons, besides Heavy Quantum Reaction Beams, ,were used before on the Bird Human, Zentradi and Protodevlin. Those were civilization ending threats.

A mind controlled galaxy can no longer be called a civilization.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Would YOU eat Windermere apples? Would you feed these same apples to your family?

Windermere apples are only a threat in combination with ruin water. otherwise there is no chemical reaction and therefore no increase of var.

So the answer would be yes and I'd avoid using Eau de ruin to dish it.
Same as with Fugu. Served wrong it's deadly. prepared correct a delicacy.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Windermere apples are only a threat in combination with ruin water. otherwise there is no chemical reaction and therefore no increase of var.

So the answer would be yes and I'd avoid using Eau de ruin to dish it.
Same as with Fugu. Served wrong it's deadly. prepared correct a delicacy.

There are farmed Fugo that aren't poisonous as it only gets poisonous due to eating animals with tetrodotoxin-laden bacteria.

With wild Fugu prepared incorrectly only the eater dies. With Var those around the eater get harmed or killed.

Voldor would pretty much object to Windermere exporting its apples not only because of the crap they pulled during their occupation but it would be affecting their Ruin mineral water exports.

Between Voldor and Windermere who do you think has greater political influence?

Oh the reason why Windermere apples have that component to create Seidznole is because Windermere farmers grow them on Fold Quartz rich soil. Exdel and other villages like it are economically ruined.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Where da heck did ya git dis idea!?

- Tak

I believe it's in connection to how Freyja continuously hid her rune from Hayate in the earlier episodes as if it's an intimate organ (which is odd because it's on her damn head). His line to her (even in the Blu-Ray) is ironically very close to implying it's another area of her body, by saying "something like that doesn't do anything for me" (as in give him a boner ). Ironically, later on in the series, this changes a little, and it's more than implied her rune gives him a boner (episode 17 ).

It's more than implied by Freyja that runes (regardless of their location on the body) are sacred areas for Winderemereans. Later on, once she learns she is in love with Hayate (inwardly), she allows him to touch her rune (episode 16). This implies how only significant others (boyfriend or girlfriend, husband or wife) are allowed to touch it.

Moreover, in one of the manga adaptions (a comical one, mind you), Mirage touches her rune, Freyja goes into total freak out mode while Mirage is apologizing like she's on fire.

----

And also, while there are 2 official manga (discounting the one for the Aerial Knights), neither one really delves into the "world building" on the Chaos side. In fact, in terms of pacing, the one for Freyja is so fast your head will spin (figuratively). The only reason I bring this up on this thread is because the official manga does not add anything more than its lovely anime on details of a) NUNS, and their involvement on Windermere, b) how Walküre is a threat for Windermere (of which I estimated it's because their singing reduces Var, ergo also Windermere mind control), and c) no focus is on Windermere itself, aside from the Aerial Knights manga which focuses on events of years prior. This is, of course, only looking into volume 1 of each released manga adaption; so all this talk of "not enough information and/or motive" is universal at this point, which only adds fuel to why there is necessity for a movie which could focus on things its series dropped.

[Convoy]

Yup. Hence why Freyja accuses Hayate of being「エッチ」when he references, looks at, or touches her rune.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I believe it's in connection to how Freyja continuously hid her rune from Hayate in the earlier episodes as if it's an intimate organ (which is odd because it's on her damn head). His line to her (even in the Blu-Ray) is ironically very close to implying it's another area of her body, by saying "something like that doesn't do anything for me" (as in give him a boner ). Ironically, later on in the series, this changes a little, and it's more than implied her rune gives him a boner (episode 17 ).

Originally Posted by Convoy

Yup. Hence why Freyja accuses Hayate of being「エッチ」when he references, looks at, or touches her rune.

I was actually referring to Daddy Ecchi's statement about personally liking the idea of runes as a sexual organ.

I don't know where he pulled that one from.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

I was actually referring to Daddy Ecchi's statement about personally liking the idea of runes as a sexual organ.

I don't know where he pulled that one from.

- Tak

If I am correct it was in one of the episode threads where freyjas rune was blinking like a flashlight

[ReddyRedWolf]

From Zentradi Mobile Weapons Japanese Wikpedia page reference.

series chronology regime of proto culture is that although there is a "interstellar republic", with respect to the Zentraedi military weapons " Macross Chronicle in" such later years of reference "Galactic Empire" it is labeled.

The Protoculture Stellar Republic is also called the Protoculture Galactic Empire. The former sounds nice and alien at the same time the later sounds the government body of the Protoculture is tyrannical.

Are we to think the Anti-Stellar Republic forces as the Rebellion?

It does put a spin on Roid saying Windermere would achieve the Protoculture dream of uniting the galaxy.

Thing is Earth is already doing that with the Miclone races without conquest. The Zentradi Army and Supervision Army? Earth and the NUN isn't touching that conflict.