[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Leafsnail]

Only Battler left the room.

[Judoh]

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by EndlessMugen

It was never established Battler had left the room on the game board.

Spoiler for Umineko ep 6:

Battler is hiding under the bed while Erika "searches" the closet with her blue gun. The game board is never resumed to confirm or deny if Battler is hiding under the bed, Erika's existence is denied before that truth is established.

Well.....

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Only Battler left the room.

Originally Posted by Judoh

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

And to add:
Kanon does not exist in the guest room. Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom.

[bigemperor]

Originally Posted by EndlessMugen

It was never established Battler had left the room on the game board.

Spoiler for Umineko ep 6:

Battler is hiding under the bed while Erika "searches" the closet with her blue gun. The game board is never resumed to confirm or deny if Battler is hiding under the bed, Erika's existence is denied before that truth is established.

Yes it was stablished that battler leave the room in red

"Ushiromiya Battler does not exist within the guest room. ......There are no exceptions, including the closet."

[Racheya-sama]

How does this sound? Kanon entered the guest room, rescued battler and redid the chain lock. Then, he died - therefore meaning that he no longer 'existed' in the room.

[EndlessMugen]

Originally Posted by Judoh

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

Knox's 2nd, it is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

Spoiler for Umineko 6:

Even if Beatrice is speaking the truth from a Witch's perspective, the only real truth can be applied to what Erika had been experiencing is with her own observations.

Even with the powerful use of duct tape, Erika's ability to assess the situation is limited to what her piece can see (an important element to why she lost the 5th game).

[Judoh]

Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard! Erika never made the detective proclamation in this game

Are you kidding me only what Erika sees counts? She knows her perspective is unreliable she says so herself. Read the game.

[winter 923]

Kanon's name is eihter: Kinzo, Sento, Battler, Erika. These are the only names that can move to that closed room. All Kanon has to do is saying "I made this rule myself. I'm not furniture anymore. I'm the zero on your roulette!!!" Quitting his job and Kanon dies. Kanon the name only exists as a servant and nowhere outside that. TIP 1-6 Shannon

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Kanon's name is eihter: Kinzo, Sento, Battler, Erika. These are the only names that can move to that closed room. All Kanon has to do is saying "I made this rule myself. I'm not furniture anymore. I'm the zero on your roulette!!!" Quitting his job and Kanon dies. Kanon the name only exists as a servant and nowhere outside that. TIP 1-6 Shannon

That could be what happened. But Kanon is not Erika or Battler and there are a few more names that you left out.

[Leafsnail]

Actually, I hadn't thought about that ep1 sequence being a hint for the Kanon alias's death. Interesting.

[TkMacintosh]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Knox's 9th. It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard! Erika never made the detective proclamation in this game

Are you kidding me only what Erika sees counts? She knows her perspective is unreliable she says so herself. Read the game.

If that is true, then who's to say that Battler didn't walk out RIGHT behind her matching her step for step staying out of her line of sight, and quickly ran away when she sealed the door.

Therefore the bathroom trap was done BEFORE she investigated the room the first time and she was being quick and didn't notice the sound of the bathroom. The room wasn't locked UNTIL she got back to check for Battler.

For the Kanon part, we could say that Battler said Kanon died in the room :x

Or I could be completely wrong D:

[Judoh]

The problem with "name death" or "psudonym death" is you run into a little problem called "Legacy". Meaning: as long as somebody remembers the name 'Kanon' (from the message bottles I guess) he doesn't technically die. In a sense names can create immortality because they live on after death.

A lesson from Higurashi~

[Renall]

Yeah, one problem with "Kanon renounced his name" as a prospect is that Kanon can't just decide that. Other people will still see him as Kanon, address him as Kanon, think of him as Kanon, and talk about him as Kanon. Even if he fakes his death, if even one person suspects he might be alive, did "Kanon" really die? Who does the red text believe? If it's permissible to be selective, you might as well declare everyone is dead at the start of the game because in some definition of "dead" you could theoretically be right.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by TkMacintosh

If that is true, then who's to say that Battler didn't walk out RIGHT behind her matching her step for step staying out of her line of sight, and quickly ran away when she sealed the door.

Therefore the bathroom trap was done BEFORE she investigated the room the first time and she was being quick and didn't notice the sound of the bathroom. The room wasn't locked UNTIL she got back to check for Battler.

For the Kanon part, we could say that Battler said Kanon died in the room :x

Or I could be completely wrong D:

Even without Erika having a reliable perspective, the puzzle is locked down pretty tightly with red.

Erika: I sealed the guest room at the time I investigated Battler’s death, so until I came back and broke the seal myself, entering or leaving the guest room was totally impossible. Therefore, it is confirmed that at the time I entered the room, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.

The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seal. Limiting it further, he had no chance to escape except during the period when I was in the bathroom.

[Judoh]

There is of course an exception (That I just thought of) in the Roulette game think. If you suppose Kanon is the Roulette itself instead of the Zero on the Roulette. He can own any name he wants in the game and thus he can rescue Battler because he has a natural ability of owning other people's names and can escape any location check.

Go ahead and deny it now it's definitely too good to be true.

[EndlessMugen]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Even without Erika having a reliable perspective, the puzzle is locked down pretty tightly with red.

Erika: I sealed the guest room at the time I investigated Battler’s death, so until I came back and broke the seal myself, entering or leaving the guest room was totally impossible. Therefore, it is confirmed that at the time I entered the room, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.

The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seal. Limiting it further, he had no chance to escape except during the period when I was in the bathroom.

Isn't all that red text presented ONLY applicable because it is Erika's perspective?

I think that is another hint on the Red text, that as implied many times before "the truth is the truth", or to be exact it is a truth based on perspective.

A red truth can be denied based upon new truth or a rivaling truth of perspective, such as the results of game 5.

The results of Game 6 is proof enough that Erika's red truth wasn't qualified to maintain the Logic Error BATTLER had unwittingly created.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by EndlessMugen

Isn't all that red text presented ONLY applicable because it is Erika's perspective?

I think that is another hint on the Red text, that as implied many times before "the truth is the truth", or to be exact it is a truth based on perspective.

A red truth can be denied based upon new truth or a rivaling truth of perspective, such as the results of game 5.

The results of Game 6 is proof enough that Erika's red truth wasn't qualified to maintain the Logic Error BATTLER had unwittingly created.

You can't deny a red truth. It's better to say that you are clarifying it. The truth can be denied based on new information and become a lie, but the red is always the truth.

[winter 923]

@Renall
Denying that would be hard, if not impossible. I agree that everyone would think of him as Kanon for some time but does other opinion matter? I never change the nicknames of my friends on IM even if they do, while i still see Vmllcg going online he already is Silver since 2 years. Ain't i am the wrong one? I can't say that Vmllcg is dead but i shouldn't call him Vmllcg eighter. because he is not.

"Oh i know him, in our schooltime we called him Eddie the slacker" but now he is Edward the top ace in his Soccer team. everything i said becomes obsolete if you don't give red a bit room to breath, since in no way you can call Eddie the slacker "dead".

If i blindly believe in red i cannot see anyone shooting Nanjo in EP3.

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by winter 923

@Renall
Denying that would be hard, if not impossible. I agree that everyone would think of him as Kanon for some time but does other opinion matter? I never change the nicknames of my friends on IM even if they do, while i still see Vmllcg going online he already is Silver since 2 years. Ain't i am the wrong one? I can't say that Vmllcg is dead but i shouldn't call him Vmllcg eighter. because he is not.

"Oh i know him, in our schooltime we called him Eddie the slacker" but now he is Edward the top ace in his Soccer team. everything i said becomes obsolete if you don't give red a bit room to breath, since in no way you can call Eddie the slacker "dead".

Of course other opinions matter. It's not Kanon declaring in red, "I am no longer Kanon! From this moment on, Kanon is dead!" It's Beatrice who is declaring Kanon is dead. So it's of her opinion that Kanon is dead, if anybodies.

If i blindly believe in red i cannot see anyone shooting Nanjo in EP3.

Course you can. All those people are dead when Evatrice declares them dead, but not before then. There's ample time before her declaration for somebody on that list who is currently alive to go up to Nanjo, stare him down, shoot him in the head, and then go off somewhere and die.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by EndlessMugen

The results of Game 6 is proof enough that Erika's red truth wasn't qualified to maintain the Logic Error BATTLER had unwittingly created.

It's not proof of anything. The reason she is able to use the red is because of her duct tape seals. And these seals were confirmed by Dlanor who swears she is impartial in her judgments.

Because of her seals she can proclaim things like The only chance Battler had to escape was after I broke the seals. To be even more specific, he had no chance to escape except for the time I was in the bathroom.

Again read the game and check the context.