[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[bigemperor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So you acknowledge that Yasu didn't kill anyone, nor she intended to kill anyone?

She didn't intend to kill anyone BUT if no one solve the epitaph the bomb will explode and everyone will die (in the ura tea party when the catbox was open we were shown that yasu send the letter to all the family asking to solve the epitafh (just like kinzo she leaves everything to the roulette of fate they even realize in the ura tea party that maybe kinzo in the past activated the bomb when he was in trouble thinking something and that their lives were at risk a lot of times)

AND

She made the murder like game JUST for battler.

[Cao Ni Ma]

That would still make her a murderer and you haven't really explained how the locked rooms could be solved without having Shkanon actively involved killing people in some of the cases or just bribing them to look the other way.

In the 2nd game we have Jessica's death, the only people capable of pulling it out where Shkanon, Gohda and Genji. The last twilights could only be done by Shkanon or Genji.

In EP3 we had the first twilight, the only person we know could have done it before opening the locked rooms would be Shkanon, unless it was done after they where opened. If they where done after the locks where opened then why didn't one of the other adults become suspicious of the adults that left the search party? There was also the numbers on the parlors door, which indicated that the person knew about the lock boxes in the bank. Unless the numbers meant something else entirely. Someone also killed Nanjo, which again points to Shkanon or the off chance that a gravely wounded person shot and killed him and then died shortly there after.

Not long anyways, little less than 5 days left right? This wait is killing me.

[Moogleking]

The question is, who kills people if Yasu doesn't?

In game 1, it is easy enough to pin on a 2nd person faking death, like Kyrie.
In game 2, it pretty much has to be Rosa who kills the family members.
In game 3, any of the adults could have killed the servants, and then there's some big fight between Rudolf/Kyrie and Eva. And for some reason Yasu kills Nanjo at the end?
In game 4, it would seem the adults went crazy similar to ep7 tea party, but Yasu confronts Battler then kills herself? Or simultaneous kills one of the other adults and dies?

The part I don't like about this is that a different person is the culprit all the time. You can say Yasu is the culprit, but that is kind of lame since we didn't even know about Yasu in the first 4 games. You can't really say it is Shannon or Kanon either, since the culprit is not a servant.

[Jan-Poo]

The culprit is "Beatrice" and her existence was a catbox since the beginning, you can't say she wasn't introduced.

After all "Yasu" changed name at the first world change, at that point only "Beatrice" and Shannon existed. Later Kanon too.

[Moogleking]

The culprit of the mystery is a witch that doesn't exist? That's pretty terrible if that is what it comes to.

[Jan-Poo]

No it's a person who claims to be a witch but that actually only performs magic tricks.

You can't deny that several "magic tricks" happened on Rokkenjima for several years. Those happenings are real. But of course none of them was made through real magic.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

The question is, who kills people if Yasu doesn't?

In game 1, it is easy enough to pin on a 2nd person faking death, like Kyrie.
In game 2, it pretty much has to be Rosa who kills the family members.
In game 3, any of the adults could have killed the servants, and then there's some big fight between Rudolf/Kyrie and Eva. And for some reason Yasu kills Nanjo at the end?
In game 4, it would seem the adults went crazy similar to ep7 tea party, but Yasu confronts Battler then kills herself? Or simultaneous kills one of the other adults and dies?

The part I don't like about this is that a different person is the culprit all the time. You can say Yasu is the culprit, but that is kind of lame since we didn't even know about Yasu in the first 4 games. You can't really say it is Shannon or Kanon either, since the culprit is not a servant.

Alternatively, you could say that the reason for each story having a different culprit is to send the message that Episode 7's Tea Party showed us. In that any one of the siblings could have been driven to murder.

So let's flip the chessboard a little. If that's the message, that just obfuscates the "truth" of what really happened. So it's probably not that simple. If we conclude that the fact each of the Episodes has a different potential culprit is to hint that "Each one of them is capable of murder", then that can only serve as a veiled way to exonerate them. Why else would there be such a hint? It doesn't serve to finger any one specific sibling, but as a means to indicate theyre all equally suspicious. In that regard, the message is that all are equally "guilty", which is to say, not guilty at all.

So the obvious suspects (the siblings) are ruled out by the message in the episodes. That leaves the culprit to be either among the servants or the cousins. Dine restricts our options among the servants aside from the iffy loophole introduced by the existence of Yasu. Which leaves either "Yasu" or one of the cousins to be the culprit being hinted at.

Thats what Im taking from it, anyway. Episode 1 is hinting at Natsuhi/Krauss, which is disproved later on explicitly. Episode 2 is Rosa. Episode 3 is Eva, and Episode 4 is, naturally, Kyrie. Odd how each of the hinted suspects is the wife/mother, but setting that aside, they're all set up as red herrings, because while they each individually may be capable of acting out the murders in their respective episodes, they are subsequently killed off quite brutally in other episodes.

Red herrings are a hint in themselves if discovered, remember. Anyway, this rant is over.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

The question is, who kills people if Yasu doesn't?

In game 1, it is easy enough to pin on a 2nd person faking death, like Kyrie.
In game 2, it pretty much has to be Rosa who kills the family members.
In game 3, any of the adults could have killed the servants, and then there's some big fight between Rudolf/Kyrie and Eva. And for some reason Yasu kills Nanjo at the end?
In game 4, it would seem the adults went crazy similar to ep7 tea party, but Yasu confronts Battler then kills herself? Or simultaneous kills one of the other adults and dies?

The part I don't like about this is that a different person is the culprit all the time. You can say Yasu is the culprit, but that is kind of lame since we didn't even know about Yasu in the first 4 games. You can't really say it is Shannon or Kanon either, since the culprit is not a servant.

1) Anyone faking death would work really, I preferred Rosa since it would allow her to manipulate Maria better. This would still mean that the actual culprit must have been collaborating with Eva since she had the key to the shed. One of the servants would have to unlock the shed, the culprit would murder Eva and Hideyoshi and then wound Yasu where she would kill Kanon before dying itself.

2) Initially yeah, if she actually lied about the chapel then it points at her with the servants as accomplices. I still am trying to fit what I believe is the golden truth to what Will said.

3) Pretty much, it still wont explain some of the characters logic during that episode. No way would Eva allow George to leave the guesthouse, if he actually left trough the window then who locked the window again? Nanjo? Why would he do it, was he working for one of the other teams? Is this the reason why Yasu killed him?

4)It could be explained with the whole game gone wrong thing, it would explain the phone calls but the time line would be sketchy. When did the murders actually happen then? Was it during the time Battler was with Maria in the guesthouse or after the trial with Beatrice? She would have to kill herself after the trial and there was no weapon or brass on the scene right? Where the stakes next to Nanjo and herself clues?

[Judoh]

It was made perfectly clear that the mothers were being framed like that by episode 5. I actually noticed it by episode 4, but it was also pretty easy to say Kyrie was the culprit at the time.

It follows a similar pattern to Higurashi did where each of the suspects get their own route in a sense. I think the reason that was done in Umineko was mostly because it was easy to suspect all of them for putting on a Beatrice disguise at the time. I think a lot of the fanbase did suspect that, but the disguise really wasn't all that necessary in the end.

[bigemperor]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

That would still make her a murderer and you haven't really explained how the locked rooms could be solved without having Shkanon actively involved killing people in some of the cases or just bribing them to look the other way.

IN ALL OF THAT TWILIGHTS NO ONE WAS DEAD AT ALL

-In the 2nd game we have Jessica's death, the only people capable of pulling it out where Shkanon, Gohda and Genji.
-Illusions to illusions. ......Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse
-Jessica never die in that twilight, kanon probably tell her the thruth FULLFILL HIS ROLE and then jessica acepted to be part of the fake.

-In EP3 we had the first twilight, the only person we know could have done it before opening the locked rooms would be Shkanon, unless it was done after they where opened. ...
-Illusions to illusions. ......In a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap.
-A great lie built by the servants.

LIKE I SAID

Episodes 1 2 and 4 = fake murders (that’s why will destroy the majority of this twilights with Illusions to illusions)

Episode 3: Until the first twilight was the fake murder game (the only twilight solve with Illusions to illusions) but then eva solve the epitafh and the real massacre begins that’s why will solve those twilights with Earth to earth. ......No falsehoods ….

Episodes 1-4 ARE FAKE STORIES made by beatrice from possible scenarios from what may happen in 1986 and the true story remain close in the catbox because the bomb explosion shut it there. But the catbox was open in the ura tea party in episode 7 THE REAL AND CRUEL HISTORY which Beatrice want to HIDE from the beginning (that the real massacre was made by the parents it doesn’t matter who but the greed from all of them are the reason of the real murders)

[AuraTwilight]

In game 3, any of the adults could have killed the servants, and then there's some big fight between Rudolf/Kyrie and Eva. And for some reason Yasu kills Nanjo at the end?

Or Kyrie pulled an EP7 Eva, got up after miraculously realizing she was alive, and killed Nanjo, thinking he was an accomplice of the culprit.

In game 4, it would seem the adults went crazy similar to ep7 tea party, but Yasu confronts Battler then kills herself? Or simultaneous kills one of the other adults and dies?

Genji did it, then got killed by Shannontrice, who suicide-pacted with Maria in heartbreak.

Alternatively, you could say that the reason for each story having a different culprit is to send the message that Episode 7's Tea Party showed us. In that any one of the siblings could have been driven to murder.

So let's flip the chessboard a little. If that's the message, that just obfuscates the "truth" of what really happened. So it's probably not that simple. If we conclude that the fact each of the Episodes has a different potential culprit is to hint that "Each one of them is capable of murder", then that can only serve as a veiled way to exonerate them. Why else would there be such a hint? It doesn't serve to finger any one specific sibling, but as a means to indicate theyre all equally suspicious. In that regard, the message is that all are equally "guilty", which is to say, not guilty at all.

So the obvious suspects (the siblings) are ruled out by the message in the episodes. That leaves the culprit to be either among the servants or the cousins. Dine restricts our options among the servants aside from the iffy loophole introduced by the existence of Yasu. Which leaves either "Yasu" or one of the cousins to be the culprit being hinted at.

Thats what Im taking from it, anyway. Episode 1 is hinting at Natsuhi/Krauss, which is disproved later on explicitly. Episode 2 is Rosa. Episode 3 is Eva, and Episode 4 is, naturally, Kyrie. Odd how each of the hinted suspects is the wife/mother, but setting that aside, they're all set up as red herrings, because while they each individually may be capable of acting out the murders in their respective episodes, they are subsequently killed off quite brutally in other episodes.

Red herrings are a hint in themselves if discovered, remember. Anyway, this rant is over.

I like this interpretation.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Weave gone trough this before, but Jessica was dead. Battler saw the stake stuck in her back and everything.

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room

This is different from the one time in EP5 as Lambda mentions that anyone seeing their corpses would know they where dead. Except they really weren't corpses at the time. In this case Jessica is actively called a corpse.

Regarding EP3s, you haven't explained the possible brain fart the non culprits would have had if they suddenly see 1 or 2 people that left the group suddenly come up again, sweaty, with possible blood residue in their clothes and smelling of gunpowder.

[Jan-Poo]

All cool bigemperor. But are you sure there's no "culprit" in EP1-3?

You've realized that "Yasu" recreated a sort of mystery murder live RPG on Rokkenjima, and you also realized that it was done for Battler so he could solve it.

But how exactly he was supposed to solve this mystery murder if there was no culprit? Of course the culprit of a fake murder is a fake culprit. But I think that for this to be really a murder mystery a "culprit" was necessary.
If people simply faked their own dead, this wouldn't be solvable. If this is all an act, why not acting the whole thing?

EP2 first twilight:

When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

The "culprit" must face the "victims" to "kill" them in this game. Else this wouldn't be solvable.

If you realize this, then who's this "culprit"?

[Moogleking]

If none of the siblings did it, and none of the servants did it, and it is highly unlikely the kids did it, that really only leaves Nanjo.

I've tried to make Nanjo the culprit, and it is interesting, but I just can't say for sure that there is enough motive.

Interesting things about Nanjo:
Never dies in the first twilight, never has an alibi.
Knows most of the secrets of Rokkenjima (except where the gold is exactly?).
Clearly lies several times (talking with Kinzo, locking the window behind George, claiming people are dead when they probably aren't, and more).
Receives the key to the bank deposit box.

Does Nanjo have the ability to turn the siblings against each other? Hard to say. Can he manipulate Yasu? Again, hard to say.

[Judoh]

Finding the culprit isn't a guessing game Moogleking. You should look for people who actually have the capability to do so rather than a lack of an alibi in most episodes. That was probably the whole point of episode 6 and 7.

Also that was Nanjo's son not Nanjo that received that key card for the safety deposit boxes. And Kumasawa's family received one too so...

[Cao Ni Ma]

Nanjo not dying till later in the episodes is easy enough to explain, they need someone with some sort of authority to diagnose the corpses as dead to trick the others. Even though he states that autopsies aren't in his line of expertise.

Small question regarding Nanjo and Genji. If Genji took the child from 19 years ago to Nanjo would it be safe to say that he took Beatrice 2 to Nanjo as well?

[Jan-Poo]

It's more likely that Genji brought Nanjo to were Beatrice died. A newborn child is one thing, the corpse of an adult woman is a little too hard to move through the streets of Niijima.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It's more likely that Genji brought Nanjo to were Beatrice died. A newborn child is one thing, the corpse of an adult woman is a little too hard to move through the streets of Niijima.

Yeah thinking about it ,that would be hilarious . Regardless Nanjo would see her and diagnose the cause of her death with what remained there. Dont know if the tide would have gone up or something and drag the corpse to sea or something.

[Saorin]

Sorry to butt in, I don't want to interrupt any ongoing discussion
However, there are a few things about Ep7 that made me think...

First of all, I do think the Tea Party might actually be "the truth" - or it might not. Considering it's Bern pulling the strings, I'm unsure whether she's not just trolling Ange, especially seeing that she didn't finish her red sentence. But even if it is "the truth" - Kyrie culprit theory is not unheard of after all - there's definitely something missing as I simply don't want to believe that "Greed" is the sole motivation in the end...
But that's just a bit of my opinion on that topic and nothing brandnew.

Apart from that, I don't believe that all of Ep7 can be accepted as real (which Ep can, after all...? )
I think Yasu as a character does have some relevance and is not entirely fictional, then again the whole mashed up kakera of Lion's world was fishy, what with people remembering Beatrice when they shouldn't be able to...
But the whole Yasu = Shannon = Clair = Beatrice = Kanon (= Lion and possibly = Gaap) is taking it a bit too far in my opinion...

Plus, just look at how many fan-made theories have popped up in this one - and so many
appear (!) to be kind of accurate (counting both Ep7 + TeaParty)
- Pony Theory (Hell...that one has been around since Ep1?)
- Bomb Theory
- Kyrie Culprit Theory
- (even) Kinzo Rape Theory
- Kyrie being Battler's mother
- Shkanon
- Shannontrice
- (possibly) Shkanontrice
etc.

I'm sorry if the following has already been brought up in detail, but I couldn't read all the 100+ pages yet
I never liked the Shkanon-Theory (much less Shkanontrice) even though I know supporters find tons of hints for that. Ep7 is making me really suspicious of the concept again...

It has already been mentioned that the part at the chapel seems like a kakera made up of several different parts.
As Lion is the miracle version of Yasu, Shannon obviously shouldn't appear in this world, which is also pointed out by Shannon being kind of confused (and apparently kind of remembering another kakera? not sure about this) and Lion forgetting Kanon's/Shannon's names.

So yeah, if it is a world composed of different ones by Bern, why put Shannon in (she isn't really interviewed by Will, is she?) although that's obviously a paradox, but basically shove Shkanon in the reader's face by making Shannon go into puppet mode as soon as Will wants to see her with Kanon? It's not as if Shkanon hasn't been shoved in our faces before this, but this is just taking it a bit far, isn't it? Why allow the discrepancy Lion-Shannon/Lion-Kanon but not both at the same time?
The scene is also likened to a chess turn, in which the more experienced player shows his opponent that he's making a fatal move there. Why would it be a fatal move for Will if he could expose Shkanon in case that's the truth? Seems rather like it didn't fit in with Bern's version of that scenario or what is the purpose of that? Or just trolling again?

Then as to the "creation" of Kanon as depicted from Yasu's view...
Shannon transfers her "seed of love" to Clair and then, as if on a side note, Clair says "Oh, while you're at it, we'll make yourself a younger brother."
?! This seems kind of funny to me. Especially as he isn't shown as having any real effect after that.
I have to admit that it could make sense in combination with the appearance of Furfur & Zepar and also the theory that Yasu has some problem with gender. (Hints for that include obviously not only the fact that Yasu is never referred to as "he or she" but always by name and Lion looking androgynous as well as admitting having a complex about that - if we take Kinzo raping Beatrice II. for real this might also have a sensible explanation along with the "this body can't love/be loved flashback).
However! If Kanon was actually created to help Shannon/Yasu deal with her broken heart, then WHY did she act him out in front of other people? Gaap never really appeared as a person (with a body ) before others, as far as I can tell, so why feel the need to do so with Kanon? Especially with the risk of Jessica falling in love with him - which I still fail to understand in every Shkanon theory.

I don't see the point...

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Saorin

Why would it be a fatal move for Will if he could expose Shkanon in case that's the truth?

If it turned out that Kanon was not just another personality of Yasu, then that would acknowledge the existence of magic- so long as 'magic' exists, Beatrice cannot die. If Kanon was just another personality, then magic would not exist and therefore 'Will' would kill her, violating Dine's 4th.