Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

It's funny how when certain points in Force gets criticized (Signum, Erio, Vita and Hayate being jobbers to show just the might of the new villains; last season weapons being ineffective), the defense was basically "Why are you guys complaining so much?! It's just like like A's!!!" (Don't believe me? Just look at the now-defunct general manga thread)

Saying it has similar general elements to something is different from saying it's copying stuff wholesale.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And the only thing notable about Force is the protagonist having a p0n0s? Well that explains everything What's next? A hermaphrodite for the OVA?

I didn't say it was the only thing, but it did make Force stand out from the rest of the franchise from its conception.

[rxrx]

Tell the truth, great reason people hate Force is cause the main character is male. The story sure can be improved, but it is not that bad. There are worse anyway.

A little off topic, I wonder what will it be like if Gen gets to write Nanoha. Maybe Fate will get beheaded like Mami? That guy doesn't give a damn about what fandom says and follow his script unlike some gundam show so I guess it might be great.

[Key Board]

No, I think the reason why the main character alienates some readers is because he's well.. alien

he could be a main character to an unrelated story and it wouldn't matter

They failed to build up bridge between the new character and the old one.

Compare this to Subaru's debut. Considerable difference.

But, yes.. there are different rules for male character because your typical reader nowadays is so easily threatened and insecure.

Touma has several no-nos:

--He is not a student
--He does not have a Japanese name
--He does not have noticeable troubles with woman

How is the viewer suppose to relate to that?

[Zero Hurricane]

Originally Posted by rxrx

A little off topic, I wonder what will it be like if Gen gets to write Nanoha. Maybe Fate will get beheaded like Mami? That guy doesn't give a damn about what fandom says and follow his script unlike some gundam show so I guess it might be great.

Personally, I think that Urobuchi-sensei seemed to like "Downer Ending" or something, like using "Kill 'em All" elements. Because he himself suffered Creator Breakdown effect. But, at Madoka itself is the answer to the fans who are wondering: what would happen if he were to make a happy ending?

And looks like, that question has been answered.

Originally Posted by Key Board

No, I think the reason why the main character alienates some readers is because he's well.. alien

he could be a main character to an unrelated story and it wouldn't matter

They failed to build up bridge between the new character and the old one.

Compare this to Subaru's debut. Considerable difference.

But, yes.. there are different rules for male character because your typical reader nowadays is so easily threatened and insecure.

Touma has several no-nos:

--He is not a student
--He does not have a Japanese name
--He does not have noticeable troubles with woman

How is the viewer suppose to relate to that?

It is, the number of characters that many are not comparable with the storyline that followed. The writer itself seemed to be his Creator's Pet or else.

And the worst again is: too many Villain Sue is seen. Most villains often steal Thoma's appearance portion

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Ah, but Fate only started to join the other side when Precia specifically stated her hate for Fate. Fate surrendered because she lost, not because she felt compelled to defect.

And let's not forget that if they send Touma to the Hucks, he is only one man. They are a mob. Opinions of the majority tends to drown the minority. His voice will be like a single sand on a desert.

It's hard enough for infiltrators to do anything when nobody knows that he's working of the enemy. When every Huckebein knows his affiliation with TSAB few would even honestly listen to his opinion. At best, they will pay lip service and pretend to listen.

You'd be surprised how much a new opinion can change the way a group thinks. We see it all the time here on the forums. Infiltrators have it hard because they have to actively keep in contact with the opposing side. If Thoma is send there to change the Hucks from the inside, he needs not worry about that.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Against a battleship. It's useless for anti-personnel duty, which is a bid bad considering that the Esquad is actually a fancy troop carrier, and its offensive means are the troops it carries.

Vita has always used giant hammers for personal combat.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

For the few minutes it was shown, which isn't saying much. There's no proof on how well it will last on a prolonged battle.

Which is still success.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Depending on you definition of "work". The *ahem* Power of Love/Friendship/[insert gushy word here] calmed Reinforce Eins, but not the corrupted defense program.

I'm not saying all Hucks will be saved, just that Thoma changing some of the Hucks is a likely scenario.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Outside of websites specifically for the niche, Gundam is either seen with apathy or active dislike. I'm not just talking about my small circle of friends or anything, but what I see on the internet as a whole.

One could say the same about Call of Duty, it's met with apathy and more often outright dislike rather often on the web. Yet, it is still one of the best selling games out there.

And really, I don't really see this dislike "on the internet as a whole" sure, there are some people who don't like it on every site. But for every person that doesn't, I can easily spot another who does.

For me, I'm not big on the whole mecha genre, so saying "Gundam with cute girls" is changing the one thing I didn't like (mecha's) into something I do like (cute girls). So it's pretty much a compliment to me.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Keroko

You'd be surprised how much a new opinion can change the way a group thinks. We see it all the time here on the forums. Infiltrators have it hard because they have to actively keep in contact with the opposing side.

Surprise me. Because introducing new opinions is not equal to changing old ones. New opinions are easier to introduce as long as they can work side-by-side with the old one. But drastic changes that goes the completely opposite direction? I doubt it.

People hates change, not when they're comfortable with the way things are. And pretty sure the Hucks are all smug and happy right now.

If Thoma is send there to change the Hucks from the inside, he needs not worry about that.

Right. And surely MS6 will let him go there without any supervision or contact.

Vita has always used giant hammers for personal combat.

And it worked for her back then. Not now.

Which is still success.

Err, no. It's a draw. We haven't seen what it will do if the axe guy fired up an anti-magic like Cypha did. I'll only consider it a success when it is proven capable of blocking such attack on-screen - hard proof or no buying it.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Saying it has similar general elements to something is different from saying it's copying stuff wholesale.

Well of course Tsuzuki didn't stop at mere Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V. Force is a standard example of "Like X, but more!"

Like A's, but with more jobbers!

Like A's, but with the weapons being even more ineffective!

like A's, but with the fights more lop-sided!

Like you point out yourself, the main difference? The main character has a rod and tackle now! What a TWEEEST!

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Surprise me. Because introducing new opinions is not equal to changing old ones. New opinions are easier to introduce as long as they can work side-by-side with the old one. But drastic changes that goes the completely opposite direction? I doubt it.

People hates change, not when they're comfortable with the way things are. And pretty sure the Hucks are all smug and happy right now.

People hate instant change. Slow change is generally barely noticed at all. And that's how Thoma would change them.

Instant change, I agree would be impossible. If Thoma walked in going "hi guys, you be good now, k?" he'd be laughed out of the room.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Right. And surely MS6 will let him go there without any supervision or contact.

I said how it could work, not how the story would do it.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And it worked for her back then. Not now.

So, Vita should change her entire combat style then? Funny, because when Erio did that, people complained.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Err, no. It's a draw. We haven't seen what it will do if the axe guy fired up an anti-magic like Cypha did. I'll only consider it a success when it is proven capable of blocking such attack on-screen - hard proof or no buying it.

Chapter 13, page 12. Direct hit from a reacted DeVille. No effect.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Like you point out yourself, the main difference? The main character has a rod and tackle now! What a TWEEEST!

True. Originality is something Force is lacking. It's just A's with more grit and a male lead. But it does make me scratch my head at all the "they changed it, now it sucks" style comments.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by rxrx

Tell the truth, great reason people hate Force is cause the main character is male. The story sure can be improved, but it is not that bad. There are worse anyway.

There's that, but more generally it's the idea of "They changed it now it sucks!" People don't like it and so they're overly critical about everything to justify that dislike. Yes you could claim to reverse for people who like it but I assure you at least I will not hesitate to say "Yeah that's bad but I don't care I still enjoy it." But as of yet I haven't found anything objectively bad about Force.

Originally Posted by Key Board

They failed to build up bridge between the new character and the old one.

Uh, what? Subaru took Thoma in when he was younger. What more of a bridge do they need?

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm not big on the whole mecha genre

Yeah, that's another attitude I encounter often. People just don't dig giant robots Just look at the lack of them in western culture: outside of Transformers you don't see any big American mecha shows.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Well of course Tsuzuki didn't stop at mere Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V. Force is a standard example of "Like X, but more!"

Like A's, but with more jobbers!

Like A's, but with the weapons being even more ineffective!

like A's, but with the fights more lop-sided!

Like you point out yourself, the main difference? The main character has a rod and tackle now! What a TWEEEST!

Actually you just pointed out many differences, so thanks for supporting my arguement

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Mostly just 'it's dark and serious, therefore good!'

Nope, not just that. It deconstructed a whole system in a "what if that fluffy thing was not that well-intentionned?" with a Faustian twist. It did it good, and it still managed to come back to its roots, the magical genre, in the end. I am deeply sorry if some guys around here are so butthurt about this show making a lasting impression on people like Anno, or a sociologist. But saying "No! Madoka is not this and that, you guys are all idiots for going "I liked that show cool story bro!!"" is not going to make it magically suck. It must really suck to be them.

Now if you want a story that was all light-hearted, took a darker turn and still have the hero emerging as a better man and BE GOOD AT THIS, you have Trigun. How could you guys forget about Trigun? Something like what happened to Vash is something I WANT to see happen to Nanoha or/and Fate, just to see what they are made of. Good old Kurt and his assessment, "Be a Sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them—in order that the reader may see what they are made of."

[Justin_Brett]

You mention Force having no identity but that's wrong. Right out of the gates it set itself as being different by virtue of having a male protagonist. Can any other installment of the franchise make that claim? Nope.

I'd agree if Touma was seriously different than any of the other protagonists, but that simply isn't the case. His gender is something different, but it's certainly not something that really affects the story. He might as well be a girl for all it matters.

[00-Raiser]

Well from the way people were bitching about it you'd figure it was a big deal

[Justin_Brett]

Guess they decided it wasn't worth the trouble when they saw that reaction.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Touma has several no-nos:

--He is not a student
--He does not have a Japanese name
--He does not have noticeable troubles with woman

How is the viewer suppose to relate to that?

Must these really be the only acceptable male protagonist these days? Whatever happen to guys like Simon or Kenshin or Spike?

Originally Posted by Keroko

People hate instant change. Slow change is generally barely noticed at all. And that's how Thoma would change them.

And with the way their running around unchecked, surely MS6 has time to spare

So, Vita should change her entire combat style then? Funny, because when Erio did that, people complained.

Eh, no. What I meant is that there's no proof that Warhammer can be used for combat against Huckebein troopers, yet.

Chapter 13, page 12. Direct hit from a reacted DeVille. No effect.

Has it ever stated that Reacting automatically activates the anti-magic? From the way it's shown, Reacting seems more like an "open weapons bay" rather than "launch weapon"

If the anti-magic really have no effect, then there should be a scene of those circles intercepting Fate's attack, like what was the case at chapter 7, only these time the dispel circles do nothing.

For those who can understand the unscanlated chapters, has there been any in-story after-action evaluation on the effectiveness of each weapon? Details on their strength and weaknesses? Because those pics are to vague for solid confirmation, so I don't buy it.

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Actually you just pointed out many differences, so thanks for supporting my arguement

Actually those are shallow changes, superficial additions slapped into an existing template, showing that Tsuzuki didn't even bother trying, so thank you for admitting that

[itanshi1]

Bebop failed in japan fyi (eps 2-12 aired iirc), the lead in sousei no aquarion is a better choice. kenshin and simon are not usual types either.

Essentially, to make money with anime you either make a 'proxy for themselves' or 'wife shopping catalog' or both.

The rest takes some gall.

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Actually those are shallow changes, superficial additions slapped into an existing template, showing that Tsuzuki didn't even bother trying, so thank you for admitting that

But they are still changes none the less and thus are differences. Nothing wrong with taking a pre-established concept and expanding upon it.

Take the lazy upgrades in A's: Bardiche and Raising Heart get one new part, Nanoha and Fate use them perfectly on the first try despite not knowing the changes and without any sort of prior training.

In Force it goes a lot more indepth, with weapons needing to be tested both in the lab and on the field. Field tests show flaws in designs, designs go back into development to fix these flaws, etc etc.

You can say the concept is the same, but Force does a lot more with it.

But I guess Force is exactly like A's as you said. That's why there's a wheelchair bound orphaned girl who just wants a peaceful life and her servants who break their vow of loyalty and collect magic from others to keep the girl alive.

Oh wait, that doesn't happen.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Nope, not just that. It deconstructed a whole system in a "what if that fluffy thing was not that well-intentionned?" with a Faustian twist. It did it good, and it still managed to come back to its roots, the magical genre, in the end. I am deeply sorry if some guys around here are so butthurt about this show making a lasting impression on people like Anno, or a sociologist. But saying "No! Madoka is not this and that, you guys are all idiots for going "I liked that show cool story bro!!"" is not going to make it magically suck. It must really suck to be them.

So, everyone who disagrees with you is somehow "butthurt" by default? Can't there be people who just felt there were problems with the series and didn't think it measured up to the hype? Do you need to resort to ad hominens in order to make an argument?

I'll grant you that it did something a bit different to the magical girl genre in the form of Kyubei... but such things have been done before in anime, where you have an innocent who is not such an innocent after all. Madoka arguably did it worse, since you knew very early on that Kyubei wasn't all forthcoming. But it just makes it worse for the characters since we knew it and could easily tell, and they were incredibly blind to it (and Homura was even more stupid about the whole thing).

And it makes it worse that he copied all his main ideas from another show and still couldn't pull it off as well as the other one. Even now, I have to chuckle at all the deconstructing of the show that happened, with everyone looking at every single clue like the black cat and the poems and words and stuff, wondering what kind of foreshadowing it heralded, and yet in the end, none of it meant anything and was just there to troll the audience. So, I suppose as a troll, Gen gets high marks (and hey, I fell for it, too!).

But Madoka had moe girls in a grimdark setting and had them run around like the dumb blonde in a horror movie. Constantly making stupid choices and never thinking things through. I suppose, in the end, it was the only way to make the plot work. If any of them had stopped and had a single spark of intelligence, the show would have been over by episode 3 or 4. So I'm disappointed it didn't live up to its (hyped) potential.

In Nanoha, however, there is an actual struggle and no deus ex or god mode to save them, which makes the struggle more meaningful. it doesn't need to drop the intelligence level of its protagonists into the gutter in order for the plot to work.

Yes, I'll grant Madoka's greatest contribution to the magical girl genre was a magical mascot that wasn't all he seemed (even though we all knew that by episode 2). I just happen to prefer the greater changes Nanoha brought; removal of stock footage attacks from magical girl anime in exchange for actual battles, growing girls up into women and following their lives, and introducing an actual universe that showcases just what it's like for magical people to form a society. Not to mention not limiting it to just girls (even though it focuses on them). Madoka never gave a reason why the Kyubei's didn't recruit boys, or even older men or women.

Which is why I like Force, because I like seeing the continued developments of this world. I want to see what happens to the Bureau and society when anti-magic becomes a strong enough force that magic can't solve everything anymore, and thus what will happen to the underpinnings that the Bureau bases its philosophy on. Even if the Eclipse infection is brought under control, AMF technology is spreading. Nanoha doesn't limit its protagonists to young moe girls (even though Vivid is catering to that).

I suppose, though, that's a reason why Nanoha isn't as popular. With Moe being the new fanservice, it turns off those who want to see cute little girls.

That's okay, though. To each their own. I like seeing older Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate.

[Justin_Brett]

But I guess Force is exactly like A's as you said. That's why there's a wheelchair bound orphaned girl who just wants a peaceful life and her servants who break their vow of loyalty and collect magic from others to keep the girl alive.

Oh wait, that doesn't happen.

Nice unbiased response, there.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

But they are still changes none the less and thus are differences. Nothing wrong with taking a pre-established concept and expanding upon it.

You can say the concept is the same, but Force does a lot more with it.

But as the "Like X but More" examples I've made before shows, those are merely quantity.

"Hmm, how should expand the formula that was successful before? Oh I know, just add more! Increase the numbers of jobbers. Make more new toys (merchandise!)! Increase the number of soldiers!"

...y'know what, the more I think about it the more I think that Force has some StrikerS elements in it, as in the "ADD MOAR" aspect - more number of heroes, more number of villains, more number of redshirts and mooks. Which is bad since one of the main fault in StrikerS is that the character list is so bloated many of them had little to no focus. Not to mention that StrikerS shows Tsuzuki doesn't know how to handle big battle sequences.

Oh, and the original post for this argument?

It's phoning it in because its taken a large part of the concepts and plot points it has used from As, the most popular season, because they know that worked and that StrikerS didn't (even though a large part of why people didn't like that season wasn't because it was new, but I digress).

Large part of the concepts and plot points, not all.

[CrowKenobi]

Is it possible to take the current discussion (Force comparison to A's & Madoka) to either the general discussion thread or the Madoka sub-forum?

[00-Raiser]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Nice unbiased response, there.

When did I ever claim to be unbiased? I'm human and therefore biased by default.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

those are merely quantity.

1 is still different from 2.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

Large part of the concepts and plot points, not all.

And Hayate's family dynamic and the Wolkenritter's motives weren't a large part of A's?

Plot points? You mean the heroes losing to the new antagonists? Oh yeah, cuz that's totally unique to A's, right? It totally didn't happen in season 1, or StrikerS, or Vivid. Or every other action title ever. Next you'll tell me "Force has protagonists and antagonists... A's has protagonists and antagonists... OMG TOTALLY COPYING!!!"