Fansubbing with Linux in mind

[Scab]

Originally Posted by Plorkyeran

[...]

Look, it's very simple. It either renders according to the standard or it's broken. Ignored tags and unsupported values are shortcomings of libass to be addressed in libass, not to be compensated for in every single SSA subtitle. But I'm not really trying to badmouth libass, honest. I think it's great that a *nix renderer is being developed and I'm aware that it's come a long way, but it's obviously still unfinished. By your logic we'd have had quite a long list of things to not use back when libass was nowhere near as complete as it is now, seeing how that's all *nix users who tried their best could get. As far as I'm concerned nothing has really changed from then; we're still waiting for the last few things to be implemented and a bunch of bugs to be fixed. This "oh, it's not supported, but it's not very useful anyway, so just don't use it!" angle is a cheap cop-out; either accept the way libass renders now or push for its inadequacies to be addressed. Complaining about perfectly proper SSA formatting until then isn't a reasonable approach.

[Plorkyeran]

I think you're really failing to understand one key point: there is not a single thing I have wanted to do but couldn't because I want to support libass. I've never encountered a font with more than two weights where the only way to use the additional weights was via \b (usually you can just put the weight in the name, and at worst I could just spend a few minutes editing the font). I assume there's a situation where \beX would look better than \b1+\blurY, but by far the biggest difference I've noticed is that one involves more typing. I never would have even realized that VSFilter supports and does useful things with non-integer positions if it wasn't for libass failing on them, and actually taking advantage of this would require being much less sloppy with motracking. Ignored tags don't need to be compensated for at all. I guess if you used xbord + ybord you could make a line unreadable in mplayer, but it's easier to use bord + (x|y)bord anyway.

If there was some actual downside to supporting libass I'd either not bother or provide a second sub track, but I'm not going to go out of my way to break things for non-windows users just to try to goad someone into proving jfs wrong.

[Scab]

Well, that's a different thing entirely. It's great that you can work around the issues and create SSA subtitles that work with both renderers, but you understand that this also requires conscious attention to the quirks of both of them. I don't need to tell you that the vast majority of SSA subtitles are not made in this way, not to mention the many releases from before libass was even around, and there's nothing wrong with them. It would be very unfortunate to end up in a web development type of mess where the subtitles need to be tested on every single implementation rather than just by adhering to the standard, so I don't see how anything other than further work on libass will do any good. Getting back to the many subtitles that have already been released, some of those do cause problems for libass (see the opening post). I feel like I'm reiterating the same point, but given that there's nothing wrong with them, the subtitles are not what needs fixing, libass is. Perhaps this strays a bit off from what you were writing and more into the realm of what the OP was getting into.

[Starks]

Scab, what about vsfilter's bugs? Doesn't it bother you that Aegisub uses the vsfilter bugfix fork version, 2.39c, whereas almost every player and codec pack that implements vsfilter is using the last stable, buggy version, 2.37?

[Scab]

IIRC newer versions of CCCP include the new build and most groups do recommend CCCP, but yes, that does bother me slightly. I wouldn't personally use the added features in a softsub.

[Plorkyeran]

Other than the decimal \pos thing, libass has fixed the stuff in the OP, hence my comment about two year old builds of mplayer. Incidentally, pre-2.39 VSFilter doesn't support subpixel positioning either. It's impossible to adhere to the standard when there is no standard other than how one renderer (which doesn't even fully implement what spec there is) happens to do things, as implementations have a habit of changing over time.

[Starks]

The problem is that libass development is now wholly integrated with mplayer. The VLC dev team understood this and applied the latest libass patches from the mplayer SVN to create their new subtitling engine.

[checkers]

Originally Posted by Plorkyeran

as implementations have a habit of changing over time.

vsfilter doesn't!!!

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by checkers

vsfilter doesn't!!!

Huh?

You obviously haven't been fansubbing very long.

Even basic functions of vsfilter (like the size of borders) varied between versions.

-Tofu

[Starks]

A rant about correct-pts

Libass doesn't play nice with scene timing unless correct-pts is enabled in mplayer/smplayer. If you want an idea of what I'm referring to, take a scene-time script and video and observe how having correct-pts disabled screws up moving signs and creates scenebleeds of subs. The correct-pts option can be enabled from the commandline for mplayer, found in the advanced options menu for smplayer.

If your group has a playback faq on your site, mentioning the use of correct-pts might be helpful.

What is correct-pts you ask?

Switches MPlayer to an experimental mode where timestamps for video frames are calculated differently and video filters which add new frames or modify timestamps of existing ones are supported. The more accurate timestamps can be visible for example when playing subtitles timed to scene changes with the −ass option. Without −correct−pts the subtitle timing will typically be off by some frames. This option does not work correctly with some demuxers and codecs.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Starks

hurr -correct-pts durr

welcome to 2006, where use of correct-pts has been recommended for ages for mplayer users that want any sort of proper subtitle timing
(no seriously, this issue has been known since at the very least august 2006, probably since way earlier)

Originally Posted by Starks

Scab, what about vsfilter's bugs? Doesn't it bother you that Aegisub uses the vsfilter bugfix fork version, 2.39c, whereas almost every player and codec pack that implements vsfilter is using the last stable, buggy version, 2.37?

latest cccp and latest mpc-hc both have 2.39c. if people want to break their playback by not updating their shit, that's their problem and not ours.

e: actually, even fucking k-lite has 2.39c so you're just talking out of your ass as usual

[ilifin]

Originally Posted by Plorkyeran

Other than the decimal \pos thing, libass has fixed the stuff in the OP, hence my comment about two year old builds of mplayer. Incidentally, pre-2.39 VSFilter doesn't support subpixel positioning either. It's impossible to adhere to the standard when there is no standard other than how one renderer (which doesn't even fully implement what spec there is) happens to do things, as implementations have a habit of changing over time.

Fun thing is that libass from a week back worked fine with decimal \pos, but the latest SVN it now stopped working in. I am so fuming over not having backed up my latest compile of MPlayer.

[checkers]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Huh?

You obviously haven't been fansubbing very long.

Even basic functions of vsfilter (like the size of borders) varied between versions.

-Tofu

Vsfilter 2.35 came out just under four years ago. There have been two official releases since then, and I'm pretty sure neither did anything but bugfixes to the rendering.

I also am pretty sure about the various linux subtitle renderers having only started development since then.

[IRJustman]

Originally Posted by zhurai-tsuki

personally, when I was testing Ubuntu on my comp, I couldn't even install/fully get the packages/etc of mplayer >.> (parts wouldn't install -> errors, my type of ubuntu couldn't install it

Have you tried adding the Medibuntu repositories? You will need that one in order to pull in any material that can be problematic to distribute or, in some places, even use, like stuff that would violate patents or the law.

I seem to remember that some of the more recent mplayer builds are in Medibuntu, but I don't have a Linux desktop immediately available to test right now. However, it's been a while, so I'm flying blind here.

--Ian.

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by checkers

Vsfilter 2.35 came out just under four years ago. There have been two official releases since then, and I'm pretty sure neither did anything but bugfixes to the rendering.

I also am pretty sure about the various linux subtitle renderers having only started development since then.

Both of the officials since 2.35 were bug fixes >.>

[TGEN]

Originally Posted by ilifin

Fun thing is that libass from a week back worked fine with decimal \pos, but the latest SVN it now stopped working in. I am so fuming over not having backed up my latest compile of MPlayer.

Did they tag it?

[martino]

Originally Posted by IRJustman

I seem to remember that some of the more recent mplayer builds are in Medibuntu, but I don't have a Linux desktop immediately available to test right now. However, it's been a while, so I'm flying blind here.

--Ian.

Not as far as I've checked. 1.0rc2 was the latest build that I remember having installed from there (and don't recall a single upgrade since I added the repository). It's a better option, as Starks mentioned, to use a PPA.

[ilifin]

Originally Posted by TGEN

Did they tag it?

Tag how? All I know is that I updated the svn, recompiled MPlayer and the same file I had been using for testing now was shown borked.

[IRJustman]

Originally Posted by martino

Not as far as I've checked. 1.0rc2 was the latest build that I remember having installed from there (and don't recall a single upgrade since I added the repository). It's a better option, as Starks mentioned, to use a PPA.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Like I said, I myself am a bit behind the loop in that department.

However, my advice for adding Medibuntu still stands for those using Ubuntu and other desktop OSes in the Ubuntu family of OSes. It NEVER hurts to have that extra bit of software available. ;) But then again, most of you probably already knew that.

--Ian.

[TGEN]

Originally Posted by ilifin

Tag how? All I know is that I updated the svn, recompiled MPlayer and the same file I had been using for testing now was shown borked.

SVN tag as in make a directory with a copy of the sources from a specific point in time, before they screwed it up again/reverted it. If you know the dates of your builds, you could do a bisect of the history between it (does SVN even support that?).