[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 2 Turn of the golden witch

[Sauzer]

Spoiler for first half of ep2:

So far finished first half of ep2 up untill the parents acknowladge Beatrice. I enjoyed the first part of this ep much more than the first part of ep1. It just seemed more interesting and there were genuinely funny moments. Was it becuase of "magic"? maybe..

The next are just notes I wrote as I read first part of ep2.

who's at the shrine, came on motorboat, furniture, throws the mirror? asume it's Shanon since persons POV continues into the eva/Krauss family conversation where we learn its Shannon. she can drive a motorboat?

Chronology is starting to go out of whack. So first is Eva's family taking the loan, then Shannon+Beata talk, then the Shrine scene, then her+George, then the family conference?

"scooop eyeballs out?" I definitely remember someone referring to a spoon like that, is Beatrice referring to episode 1? So this is actaully happening after episode 1? These aren't some parallel versions of the island?

At some point Beatrice starts repeating Eva's lines to Shannon. and she never says something that Shannon wouldn't know or asume. Hallucination? Some sort of conversation with herself deciding what to do? Not sure how to describe events like this.

Damn Shannon's story line is cute also beggining to ep 2 is kinda more interesting than ep1 )
Dear god, too cute!

So Shannon and Beatrice transported/teleported from rose garden to the beach during their conversation, eh?
Goodbye "it's a POV there for must be true"! Was nice knowing you!

Also cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute. (Shannon/Jessica; Jessica/Kanon)

Poor Jessica.

Best. Mom. Ever.

Also holy hell "witches exist!" just got a whole new meaning.

Nanjo looking for Natsuhi's conformation to speak about Kinzo? So him allying with her is not that far-fetched?

erm... 18+1=19? erm...

Kanon talking with Beata. "help two in love"? "cruel fate"? crap.

Someone else writing in Maria's notebook??

Soo many people know about golden land and that tons of people will die.

people who see Beatrice:
Maria
Rose
Kyrie
Genji
Shannon
Kanon

Only Kyrie, Rose and Maria confitm seeing Beatrice in front of Battler. Gohda refers to Genji, who doesn't get to confirm it before the kids leave.

And damn Shannon/George and Kanon/Jessica is actually damn touching this episode.

However one disturbing thing I noticed after writing the list of people who see Beatrice - there is another list:
Nanjo
Genjo
Kanon
Shannon
Natsuhi
Krauss

people who can confirm Kinzo is alive. Just as many as people who can confirm Beatrice exists. And this list is not quite as random. f*** my life.
I don't think I can handle the fact that every scene with Kinzo in the study apart from the very first one in ep1 might be complete b/s.

Supernatural bits are very interesting and fun, but will probably have to ignore all of them when simply trying to salve the murders of... human world?

With that said Beatrice actually being there and talking with Kanon and Shannon for real, does kinda sound more interesting ^^

In fact.. More like, maybe it's better to read this as if all this magic does happen for real, with murders still being possible by humans simply a device to keep these events it somewhat anchored to reality?

Very conflicted in how I'm supposed to be reading this. On one hand I'm supposed to solve murders without relying on magic, which in turn means I'm supposed to disregard all the "cool" magic stuff as false by default. Which also means more and more of stuff "shown" is a blatant lie. Daaamn.

Confused/conflicted.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

It's very fun to read your readings. I hope you will continue to post it.
And in regards to magic. If you do not believe in it, maybe there's something else it's trying to tell you.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

It's very fun to read your readings. I hope you will continue to post it.
And in regards to magic. If you do not believe in it, maybe there's something else it's trying to tell you.

Maybe in hindsight you might find "something else", but at most I could guess (as my example with Shannon) is conversations with Beatrice are conversations with themselves? Reflections? mirror from Shrine? the whole shattering glass theme? Was I supposed to keep track of everytime glass shatters in the game?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

Maybe in hindsight you might find "something else", but at most I could guess (as my example with Shannon) is conversations with Beatrice are conversations with themselves? Reflections? mirror from Shrine? the whole shattering glass theme? Was I supposed to keep track of everytime glass shatters in the game?

It's great that you think outside the box (you'll get the irony at one point), just try to find a theory and try to think it through, but don't disregard totally that your ideas might be leading you to a dead end.

Which also means more and more of stuff "shown" is a blatant lie. Daaamn.

Don't forget though that there is a lot of space between the literal truth and a blatant lie. Instead of saying "it's sunny" I could say "it's not raining", am I lying or telling the truth about the fact that the sun is shining?

[Sauzer]

Spoiler for finished ep2. notes during reading:

"will not shame myself like last time"? So it does go chronologicly? Wait did Kinzo die in ep1? damn.. and he's AWARE of it???

Oh, goodie, Gohda lives..

chapel?

YAY! Best mom lives! ^^ (even though she also accepted Beatrice?)

I hope Rosa realises she just made herself prime suspect with taking that key.

"Fantastical deaths"? "Mix of pleasure and pain"? My-my Rosa.

Forget Rosa - Beatrice is one sick kitty. Sure Nanjo could be an accomplace - better dig through your dead parents guts youself.

Battler personaly confirms that at least three gold bars exist. Though he can't prove that they are real gold?

How does Kanon manage to have the coolest deaths?
Asmodeus=Lust (swears a lot)
Satan=Wrath (fetishist... is one way to put it)

chapel part of the epipath?

six people entered through the door, but culprit might not have?
only one key to the chapel
no lockpicks
no other way to get into the chapel when the door is closed
the envilope could be accessed and opened

phew, at least rosa didnt get killed by the golden butterfly
erm.. Everytime someone goes to Kinzo they somehow change? become more serious? First Natsuhi, now Rosa

So Rosa also confirms Kinzo as alive

This time they search the room

1 master key per servant. Kinzo doesnt have one?

lol Gohda trolled. watch what you say infront of Rosa

no trick of locking the door from outside. window?

and again. Rosa willing to become a Demon same as Natsuhi

how many hours was Kanon alive with a wound in his chest?? wasn't he "killed in the room" with red text? Why would he walk around for several hours with that wound? how?
wait. I wanted to say Rosa is the culprit! If the game tells me she is, then she can't be
erm. red eyes? o-ok... bye-bye servants.

"the finishing touches are yet to come"?

wait wait wait. "The corpse of Jessica is also included", but the corpse is not in the red text? she's alive? hm, though "when Jessica's corpse was discovered" is in red text. is it because they think it's a corpse? or she is dead after all?

ah window also cant be locked from outside

LOL "you are incompetent"10/10. ep2 wins

Guilty untill proven dead. That's dark.

wait what about third twilight? did anyone "praise my name"?

ep2 went form much more cuter and funnier than ep1 to much more sadder than ep1.

wait how did George open the chapel door from the inside?

Gohda's icepick/Stake is a joker.

Natsuhi's door painted again

If Gohda was gauged in the chest shouldn't it have happened after Shannon's gauge in the head? So even Beatrice isn't following the twilights 100% correctly?

too. many. closed. rooms. I couldn't solve even one in ep1 ><

"erm.. the letter was here... really.."
This would be a comedy show if not for all the murders

Beatrice said 'Rosa' in red text. Why the ''?

Yeah. Beatrice's bust size. The greatest mystery of ep2

So since Battler gave up and believed in the witch even his POV could no longer be trusted?

Eh, Rosa actually denied the witch? Then what was all the parents acknowladging her?

and it's still all 18 died? So its still 18. So what Battler sees in the study is not "real".

Now THAT'S a bad end. Surenderring to the witch unleashes the demons of all seven hells? Yikes! Actually feels like Rosa and Maria are trying to escape from an epicenter of a supernatural evil that is about to devour the whole world. talk about bad end.

I was actually eating while reading tea party

Hm. Bern keeps saying about how Beato makes moves that are actually bad, to confuse. So maybe someone "playing dead" is a possibility after all? I keep disregarding it as too risky downright stupid, but I guess I shouldn't. On the other hand everything still has to make sense in the "human world", so can I actauly use options that a smart person would consider retarted?

nipa~!

ep2 "??????" happened before the ep2 "tea party"? Since Lambda says "Rosa being tortured right now"

And who the hell is Lambda actually helping? She's allied with Beato, but then is helping me, she doesnt mind if Beato wins, but prefers if Bern wins, to beat her straight after that...

Spoiler for Considerations about EP1 Murders:

1. Kinzo said/suggested that he died "last time". in ep1? If someone confirms they died in previous episode I'm supposed to take that into account and alter my suspects?
So "Humans could do it in ep1 if person X did Z" must also not contradict if in ep2 person X said he didn't do Z? Even though in a vacuum of ep1 noone knows that ep2 exists?

So in theory there is no solid proof that [Natsuhi, Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa] did not conspire in ep1 and it still makes all the murders possible without magic (from the envilopes and key problems to the dark rituals to revive Beatrice by Kinzo)

Though maybe I'm paying too much attention to a line from a POV of a person who is not only senile, but also potentially always dead anyway.

2. Someone made a good point about how a lot of the details make no sense if the culprits motives are simple money. Why make it so over the top? So even while saying that person X, C and V could commit these murders without magic if they were emotionless robots, if I start dealing with motives I also have to consider this.

3. Nanjo looking for Natsuhi's confirmation (asuming it's not an isolated incident to only this ep2), suggestions to consider stupid stuff and Beato's taunt about confirming the dead yourself makes my "D" theory from last time be more possible.

[Natsuhi, Nanjo, "one of 6 from the storehouse"]
Nanjo might already be in Natsuhi's pocket, so he lies about one of the people being dead. How many people would have the courage to get close to a bloodbath and check the mutilated corpses of their loved ones? And if it gets dangerous they can yell out "don't disturb the crime scene!"
... Now that I think about it, someone did say that when they wanted to cover the faces. who was it? *checking* Natsuhi suggested it and Eva stopped her? Oh, come on!

Of course I still need to include Genji, Kanon and Kumasawa for the 2nd twilight. If I "revive" Krauss this pretty much makes the whole list of people who could confirm that Kinzo is alive to begin with.
But if Kinzo is not involved how does someone like Genji get involved? Kinzo's dying wish? And what's the point in all the over-the-top details of the murders? If Krauss wants the inheritance, just kill everyone and be done with it.

my head hurts

Spoiler for Speculations on ep2 "puzzles":

Wanted to say theories, but on second thought it's more like grasping at straws with too many questions. This episode is much harder.

Also I do wish all the "red truths" were stored in the tips somewhere. Having trouble remembering all of them and details are so important

Magical stuff:
I don't even..
It ended with all hell breaking loose and the island becoming some kind of Cthulu's spawning pool, from which incoprehensible evil would spread and destroy humanity as we know it...
so yeah.

Purgatory:
A place where people get to reflect on their lives and are judged by Beatrice?
But in ep1 they weren't so much reflecting or being judged, more like having fun. Though maybe it didn't get to that just yet? And then Battler denied the existance of all magic anyway, so everyone disintegrated.

Witch's epipath:
fat chance =/ Waay too metaphorical.
The church could be involved in some way. In ep1 was considering that the epipath was written not from Kinzo's perspective but from Beato's "my hometown" etc., but that still doesnt get me anywhere.
Are all the gauges just a countdown on how much time left or you need to stab a statue/paiting in certain ways to trigger some hidden door?

"It's useless! all useless!"

Chapel closed room:
Well this one Battler solves himself pretty much. all that remains is who was messing with Maria's handbag. and who gave her the key in the first place.

Also the chapel was opened before the key was given to Maria. Otherwise the cuplrit would have to wait for all the kids to go to sleep before he could even get inside. What if they didn't sleep at all? And Maria probalby wouldn't even let her own mother mess in her handbag.

However the more likely suspects become Battler, George, Jessica and Rosa. Since they are always near Maria/in the same room, it'd be easer to get to her bag. And Rosa at least has somewhat plausable explanation as to why she'd be searching something in it, as apposed to if someone like Gohda got caught red-handed.

3 gold bars:
This is actually massive. If the motive is inheritance/money, then WHO THE HELL leaves 60 MILLION lying there for anyone to take? Rosa risked her life (and died) for just one gold bar.
And where did it come from? Unless it's actaully a fake and is simply some kind of a bait?

19th person:
There can't be one, right? It said it again "none of the 18 were left alive". And "Beatrice" went out of her way to be seen by as few people as possible even though it didn't seem like it (does anything happen as it seems on this damn island?).

People who are shown to have seen her:
Maria, Rose, Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Kyrie.

However Shannon only mentions seeing her to George. And Kanon does not get to say he saw her at all. By the time Kanon, Gohda and Jessica reach "Beatrice's" room they are already in no man's land.

So the group that actualy said "19th person exists" is very small:
Maria, Rose, Genji and Kyrie

Unlikely allies. What do they get from it? Rose bitter at her siblings wants to get all the money for herself? She allies with Kyrie to make her lie more believable promising her a huge portion of the money and later simply kills her? How does Genji get involved with them? Why bother with 19th person to begin with? Just "kill 'em all"

Why is everything so over-the-top?
If it's just for the money, why is everything so over-complicated? If Kinzo is involded then it makes sense to a point, but otherwise.
Rosa's fascination with the scene told about some childhood scars, so she could do the party, but why 5 million closed rooms?

The last letter in the parlor
Beyond it being Maria's prank, it makes no sense. Though to be fair the whole letter seems like sarcastic joke.
As Battler pointed out - Rosa might as well just shoot everything that moves by that point, so why bother?

Kanon's body
Burned in the boiler room or otherwise hidden. Kanon is killed. If I also have to start arguing agaisnt "red truth" I might as well shoot myself.

Natsuhi's room:
Even ignoring the painted door. They killed each other? But why there? Why bother closing the room? Where they'd get the stakes and why use them? Stakes don't seem like practical combat weapons.

Jessica's room:
Stabbing yourself in the back kinda impossible so suicide is out. Locking herself inside while wounded? Why? You can't really struggle with the killer enough to be able to escape and lock the door when you've got that serious injury. And wouldn't the key just be somewhere on the floor? Also her astma must be playing some role in all of this mystery....

There is a possible loophole that Jessica is actually alive. In "red truth" Beatrice refers to Jessica's corpse once, but very soon specifically avoids the word "corpse" and said "The corpse of Jessica is also included". But then wouldn't she also have to say "when Jessica was discovered" instead of "when Jessica's corpse was discovered"? But in the end only Kanon's death is confirmed in red text.

Servant's room:
Can't commit suicide when you're already dead. And can't remove your own body.
So again servants must conspire? Genji, Shannon and Gohda? Why make themselves more suspicious? At least if it's Nanjo that's only one person. But then they didn't bother confirm if he was dead?

Nanjo's and Kumasawa's killer/s:
Shannon, Genji and Gohda being the obvious suspects.
The other possibility is Jessica.
She's supposed to be dead. Nanjo starts treating her.
They would be just as shocked that she's not dead from her wound as they would be with Kanon.
Then as Kanon said "it's nothing". Jessica could say it's nothing or make it seem like it's nothing, because it actually is notihng and the wound is a fake.
They would also be just as surprised if the person they knew for so long would suddenly attack and start killing them. It can't be the same person, right?
So when they try to explain everything to the others, they struggle to even mention her. It's so unbelievable. She's supposed to be dead. And that Jessica is a murderer? So the servants resort to saying "Kanon" who is at least possibly alive and was at least for a while an accepted suspect. (Especially when Rosa explicitly said to them "It's impossible for you to meet anyone other than Beatrice or Kanon")

And Jessica came there to get back the master key from Nanjo. He gave it to her while "treating" her. I guess he didn't expect to get killed.

But, why attempt to fight 1v5? Exposed? How did she get away? why come back for the bodies and leave both master keys?

Final notes:
Which leaves me with two groups of suspects which only solve portions of the puzzles each, but aren't compatable with each other:
[Rosa, Kyrie, Genji, Maria]
[Jessica, Nanjo]
and an isolated group who for all intents and purposes kill each other
[George, Shannon, Gohda]

Unless I make a mega-group
[Rosa, Maria, Kyrie, Genji, Shannon, Gohda].
But then I might as well use Rosa's approach - everyone is guilty untill proven dead.

"ahh, it's useless! all useless!"

Maybe something will come to mind later. But next week will be extremly busy, so doubt will be able to

[rogerpepitone]

Regarding one of your points:
In _Rocket to the Morgue_ by H. H. Holmes (a pen name for Anthony Bouncher), a character claimed that Boucher had an open challenge that, for any mystery where it was claimed a death was suicide because nobody could get a knife or gun into that position, that Boucher could duplicate that feat, and nobody ever collected on him. (I don't know whether Boucher actually made such a claim, or whether anyone collected on him, though.)

[GreyZone]

well in the main menu the difficulty for EP2 is "very hard". And it actually is true. EP2 really is supposed to mess with your head. EP3 will give more hints than EP2 so look forward to that!

And before I forget it: There actually is a list of red truths, but since on the same page there are the red truths of ALL episodes (even EP8) I'll rather copy&paste the EP2 red truths here:

Spoiler for Red truths for EP2 'Turn of the golden Witch':

When I speak the truth, I will use red.
Everything I speak in red is the truth
Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door (Refers to the six murders in the chapel.)
Only one key to the chapel exists
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel (This morning refers to the morning of the second day.)
The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria
The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing
The only master keys are the ones that each servant holds, one per person (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 12: A Suspect.)
there are absolutely no types of hidden doors (The location in discussion refers to Jessica's room.)
This door is the only way in or out
The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant
the window is locked from the inside
Kanon was killed in this room
When locked, entry is not possible by any means
No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key
Kanon was killed in this room (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 13: Wolves and Sheep Puzzle. This text refers back to Statement 16, in the same context.)
There are no hidden doors in this room (This text refers back to Statement 12, in the same context.)
There is no way to get in or out other than the door and the window (This text refers back to Statement 13 and Statement 15, in the same context.)
There are no hidden doors (Used by Battler. This text refers back to Statement 20, in the same context.)
[Those are] kept in the key box in center of the servants' room (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 14: Devil's Proof. The location in discussion refers to the servants' room.)
[There are several keys to the servants' room, but] all of those are inside the key box
Entry or exit is impossible except for the single door and single window
And those were both locked
The door and the window do not permit any kind of entry or exit when they are locked
it is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servants' room or the master key
No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included
Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of
No one is hiding
No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key
Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside
You are incompetent[!]
hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi[!!]
Come on, Ushiromiya Battler, kneel
If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved
With my power, any kind of closed room can be created or destroyed[!!]
I'll make you my favorite furniture
I'll love you so much, and make you my toy until you turn to ashes
*cackle*cackle*cackle*hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahy ahhahhahahahaha-hhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha
There are only 5 master keys
There are only 5 master keys
there are only 5 master keys
I keep my promises (Used by Beatrice in Chapter 15: Fleeting Resistance.)
Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual (In this case, usual refers to the closed room scenarios prior.)
The door and the windows were locked from the inside
There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place
Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off
Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them
And let me say this, the parlor's the same
The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants' room
So unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room is the same as always!

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Regarding one of your points:
In _Rocket to the Morgue_ by H. H. Holmes (a pen name for Anthony Bouncher), a character claimed that Boucher had an open challenge that, for any mystery where it was claimed a death was suicide because nobody could get a knife or gun into that position, that Boucher could duplicate that feat, and nobody ever collected on him. (I don't know whether Boucher actually made such a claim, or whether anyone collected on him, though.)

Hm. Maybe my english is bad, but I really don't get is it about "claiming that death was a suicide because noone can get a weapon into that room to kill the person" or "it can't be a suicide because noone can get a weapon into that position"?

Maybe answering would be too much of a hint..

Originally Posted by GreyZone

well in the main menu the difficulty for EP2 is "very hard". And it actually is true. EP2 really is supposed to mess with your head. EP3 will give more hints than EP2 so look forward to that!

so ep3 is supposed to be easier and give much more hints to solve the crimes?
Suddenly I don't want to read ep3, while my ep2 is in such a state

One thing I noticed is that I was eventually very sad that "chapel closed door" was solved for me. At first I'm like: "uhuh, makes sense, cool!", and like two hours later "daaamn I could've solved that, that was clearly the easiest puzzle". Felt almost cheated

A bit ashamed in this my performance, when in ep1 I at least had a plausable theory or two. Hm.. Gonna try a Higurashi approach

Spoiler for Higurashi approach:

In hindsight Higurashi could be solved (only watched anime) when you look for events that happen again and again without change - Rika being killed, Tomitake suicide, Takano burning in a barrel.

So perhaps this can work in Umineko. Looking for patterns. Just 2 episodes don't make for a pattern yet, but it's worth a shot.

Patterns confirmed from Battler's POV:
Natsuhi's room "painted".
A "circle symbol" on the entrance to the 1st twilight, "door symbol" on the entrance to the 2nd twilight and "different circle symbol" in Beatrice's last letter. (don't remember what they're called)
Kinzo is never seen outside of his study during the two days of family conference.
The mother who goes to Kinzo's room and eventually gets a gun "changes" - becomes more protective, authoritative, increasingly offensive and paranoid.


Patterns confirmed outside of Battler's POV:
6 people die in 1st twilight.
Kyrie, Krauss and Rudolf die in 1st twilight.
Battler and Maria survive untill the last twilight.
Everyone is killed after the last twilight if the riddle isn't solved.
3 people from 4th-8th twilights die together in the same room.
All communication with outside of the island is damaged after the 1st twilight.
Typhoon prevents anyone from getting to the island.
Servants start their duties at 6:00.
There is a precious mirror in Natsuhi's room.
Shannon is proposed to.
At one point Rosa leaves adults inheritance disscussion.

Need to think more.
Will not read ep3 untill I have at least one theory that is somewhere in the "plausibly not completely impossible" realm.

[GreyZone]

About Battler's POV not being reliable at the end: Don't forget that he drank a LOT of alcohol... golden Butterflies you would rather see with other kinds of drugs, but oh well...
also the "hints" from EP3 can be misleading you as well, so it depends on how you interpret and use them.
Also you should absolutely not rely on Battler too much to solve the murders, as this Battler is incompetent.

If you want to solve something you should rather try EP1 again, as most of those murders were solvable by using logic alone, but for EP2 you really should read on... else you will just get a headache.

[rogerpepitone]

So what if Battler drank a lot of alcohol? No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight. No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo! (全ての人物は右代宮金蔵を見間違わない。 いかなる変装であったとしても、右代宮金蔵を見間違わない！

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

About Battler's POV not being reliable at the end: Don't forget that he drank a LOT of alcohol... golden Butterflies you would rather see with other kinds of drugs, but oh well...
also the "hints" from EP3 can be misleading you as well, so it depends on how you interpret and use them.
Also you should absolutely not rely on Battler too much to solve the murders, as this Battler is incompetent.

If you want to solve something you should rather try EP1 again, as most of those murders were solvable by using logic alone, but for EP2 you really should read on... else you will just get a headache.

So you're telling me to give up and accept that some silly magic exists? Like hell I will!

Spoiler for More theories:

There's something bothering me about the chapel. (thank's for the red truth, summed up nicely)
First of all the VN actaully avoids showing that the chapel had been locked after the 1st twilight or who had the key. (Rosa locks the door, opens it)
Then we have this:
Only one key to the chapel exists
It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit
It is the absolute truth, right?

So how do George, Shannon and Gohda enter and leave the chapel? Sure, they break the window, but shouldn't When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit still be true?
And then George opened the door from the inside?

Sure this is all happening in "no man's land" so nothing should be taken for granted, but George did have Natsuhi's key, when he was found in Natsuhi's room.

Did Shannon/Gohda/George (or anyone for that matter) have Natsuhi's key even before Natsuhi was killed? Did they have the key to the chapel? Rosa never locked the chapel to begin with? Or was it opened again later?

and why.... ...


THAT'S IT!!!!!

George and Shannon planned to get married!

The parents weren't accepting the witch, Beatrice. They were accepting Shannon's and George's marriage!!

Only they were accepting them in death! Rosa always being at odds with her siblings finally got to oppose them on this one thing and was the only one who accepted George and Shannon and thus was left alive.

The letter (which was never shown as read) was an invitation to Shannon's and George's marriage - to the chapel!

George had planned to openly fight his parents! This has nothing to do with the money!


___

As for the other stuff...

Rosa was paranoid because noone else was supposed to die.

In the servants room when they find a letter with the two keys. one of them is a fake! Beatrice keeps saying there are only 5 master keys. She never confirms all those 5 keys are in the room right now. After that they are put into Maria's bag.

Beatrice confirms Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them only after Battler, Rosa and Maria enter the parlor. Maria picks up the real key during/after leaving Natsuhi's room. Thus "Servants room" and "Natsuhi's room" are not closed rooms.

Maria is the one who placed the letter, she's still enjoying the whole Beatrice a witch thing. She had been trying to solve the epipath, so asks Batler how he's doing with it.

Jessica as the orchestrator of George's and Shannon's relationship is "Beatrice"

While I can't explain or prove motivations. my previous point about Jessica still stands. She is also the one who kills Shannon, George and Gohda in Natsuhi's room.

Spoiler for my previous Jessica point:

Jessica's room:
There is a possible loophole that Jessica is actually alive. In "red truth" Beatrice refers to Jessica's corpse once, but very soon specifically avoids the word "corpse" and said "The corpse of Jessica is also included". But then wouldn't she also have to say "when Jessica was discovered" instead of "when Jessica's corpse was discovered"? But in the end only Kanon's death is confirmed in red text.

Nanjo's and Kumasawa's killer/s:
Shannon, Genji and Gohda being the obvious suspects.
The other possibility is Jessica.
She's supposed to be dead. Nanjo starts treating her.
They would be just as shocked that she's not dead from her wound as they would be with Kanon.
Then as Kanon said "it's nothing". Jessica could say it's nothing or make it seem like it's nothing, because it actually is notihng and the wound is a fake.
They would also be just as surprised if the person they knew for so long would suddenly attack and start killing them. It can't be the same person, right?
So when they try to explain everything to the others, they struggle to even mention her. It's so unbelievable. She's supposed to be dead. And that Jessica is a murderer? So the servants resort to saying "Kanon" who is at least possibly alive and was at least for a while an accepted suspect. (Especially when Rosa explicitly said to them "It's impossible for you to meet anyone other than Beatrice or Kanon")

And Jessica came there to get back the master key from Nanjo. He gave it to her while "treating" her. I guess he didn't expect to get killed.

So the "culprits" are [Jessica, Rosa, George, Shannon, Nanjo]

Rosa only took part in the 1st twilight which is why she was sure Kanon killed Jessica and did not want to trust anyone after that.

Still a very shaky case, but better than nothing.

If I could somehow remove Nanjo from the list it would be perfect, because otherwise Rosa should suspect Nanjo who checks and confirms Jessica is dead and should check Jessica herself. Though maybe she though Nanjo was on her side, so no need to worry? Also no surprise she would distance herself from everyone after her ally Nanjo is killed.

[GreyZone]

@rogerpepitone: This is the EP2 thread! Please refrain from using red truths from later episodes! I could "correct" the theory a little bit to appease your red truth, but then I would go into spoiler territory myself as well...

@Sauzer: I never asked you to accept magic, I just recommend you to leave EP2 aside for now and move on to EP3 (or at least just focus on EP1 for now), as you are missing a lot of context. The author of Umineko himself admitted that "he made EP2 too hard"... Actually if you don't know a certain few things then it could become VERY hard to solve anything at all. You can try to solve EP2 later on. Also if you focus just on "how" the murders happen, then your chances to solve the murders without reading on are very very slim. If you take everything into account your chances are still very slim.

Also be aware: Later on Beatrice will shoot a lot of Battler's theories down - and yours as well.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

@rogerpepitone: This is the EP2 thread! Please refrain from using red truths from later episodes!

@Sauzer: I never asked you to accept magic, I just recommend you to leave EP2 aside for now and move on to EP3, as you are missing a lot of context. The author of Umineko himself admitted that "he made EP2 too hard"... Actually if you don't know a certain few things then it could become VERY hard to solve anything at all. You can try to solve EP2 later on. Also if you focus just on "how" the murders happen, then you chances to solve the murders without reading on are very very slim. If you take everything into account your chances are still very slim.

Also be aware: Later on Beatrice will shoot a lot of Battler's theories down - and yours as well.

ah, that's fine ^^

I don't actaully want to solve everything and be correct about everything. If I could do that, then it wouldnt make for much of a mystery.

I just wanted to make a plausable theory or two, that would make some sense to myself so that I could say to myself "yep, I tried and it made sense at the time".

So rather than just saying "I don't have a clue". I say "If this goes here and this does that for whatever reason, it's plausable". As long as it's "plausable" I'm already happy that it made some sense for me, even if Im wrong later.

So even though by the way you said to try and solve ep1, it implied that my theories are wrong, I don't feel like taking another shot at it at the moment. because unless someone pokes at it directly saying: "your theory in ep2 is completly false because in ep2 X did Z, which means Rosa was clearly reading a book to Maria at the time of the murders my theory is still plausable. and I don't see a reason to poke holes in what I already view as "possible without magic".

So I've already read a tiny bit of ep3

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

ah, that's fine ^^

I don't actaully want to solve everything and be correct about everything. If I could do that, then it wouldnt make for much of a mystery.

I just wanted to make a plausable theory or two, that would make some sense to myself so that I could say to myself "yep, I tried and it made sense at the time".

So rather than just saying "I don't have a clue". I say "If this goes here and this does that for whatever reason, it's plausable". As long as it's "plausable" I'm already happy that it made some sense for me, even if Im wrong later.

So even though by the way you said to try and solve ep1, it implied that my theories are wrong, I don't feel like taking another shot at it at the moment. because unless someone pokes at it directly saying: "your theory in ep2 is completly false because in ep2 X did Z, which means Rosa was clearly reading a book to Maria at the time of the murders my theory is still plausable. and I don't see a reason to poke holes in what I already view as "possible without magic".

So I've already read a tiny bit of ep3

Actually some of your theories for EP1 were quite good. They were not "correct" but they were not "completely wrong" either. It shows that the red truth and the whole "magic show" is very confusing and taking away the attention to where it matters. Well you got spoiled already that Battler is the only "reliable" POV aside from red truth, so that makes it a lot easier for you. Well there was still that scene at the end of EP2 where Battler saw golden butterflies, but I'll simply leave you with that, as more spoilers would be just taking away from the enjoyment at this point.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Actually some of your theories for EP1 were quite good. They were not "correct" but they were not "completely wrong" either. It shows that the red truth and the whole "magic show" is very confusing and taking away the attention to where it matters. Well you got spoiled already that Battler is the only "reliable" POV aside from red truth, so that makes it a lot easier for you. Well there was still that scene at the end of EP2 where Battler saw golden butterflies, but I'll simply leave you with that, as more spoilers would be just taking away from the enjoyment at this point.

hm. about Battlers POV, I guess it does. I'd be very much stuck otherwise. In Shannon's/Beatrice discussion they teleport from the garden to the beach, so it's either magic or... they were simply walking from the garden to the beach

Hm. And it is an interesting point if red truth is actually a distraction from the truth. Oh, the irony

Either way I enjoyed ep2 very much. And the ending with Rosa and Maria running from the island was so many epics. Probably my favorite part of ep2. Found the soundtrack and listening to it right now.

Rosa was already a character I liked, and this ep solidified her as one of the favs. Hope there's more of her. However considering there are 18 characters that need to get a spotlight.. And that's only the "human" characters! so guess not

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

Hm. And it is an interesting point if red truth is actually a distraction from the truth. Oh, the irony

I would rather say it like this: You can play around even with the most truest of truths.

My car crashed.
My car crashed into a tree.
I crashed my car into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed that same car into a tree.
I was alone in my car when it crashed into a tree.

All point towards the same event but tell it in a very different light and leave more or less room to think around them. Don't forget that the red is not necessarily there to help you, but also to make you stumble.

Never forget, this is a torture that is supposed to pain you for all eternity.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I would rather say it like this: You can play around even with the most truest of truths.

My car crashed.
My car crashed into a tree.
I crashed my car into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed into a tree.
Somebody in my car was drunk when I crashed that same car into a tree.
I was alone in my car when it crashed into a tree.

All point towards the same event but tell it in a very different light and leave more or less room to think around them. Don't forget that the red is not necessarily there to help you, but also to make you stumble.

Never forget, this is a torture that is supposed to pain you for all eternity.

So either way you have to be a friggin' lawyer with Beato.

However now that I re-read red truths I noticed one more thing.

Spoiler for red truth:

Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off.
Beatrice never said there was only one key to Natsuhi's room aside from other five keys. Krauss could've also had one. Or a duplicate made of Natsuhi's key, wich is also not dissproved by Beatrice.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

So either way you have to be a friggin' lawyer with Beato.

However now that I re-read red truths I noticed one more thing.

Spoiler for red truth:

Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off.
Beatrice never said there was only one key to Natsuhi's room aside from other five keys. Krauss could've also had one. Or a duplicate made of Natsuhi's key, wich is also not dissproved by Beatrice.

The door and the windows were locked from the inside, so any extra keys are irrelevant.

[Sauzer]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The door and the windows were locked from the inside, so any extra keys are irrelevant.

*facepalm* Looks like I'm grasping at straws at this point.

Spoiler for ep2 hints:

so even if one of the five master keys in the room were a fake, it doesnt apply to Natsuhi's room.

Still I do feel like random hints are scattered here and there.

Shannon and George's marriage and murders being in a chapel.
Avoiding showing the chapel clearly being locked and who had the key.
George, Shannon and Gohda entering and leaving the chapel that is asumed lcoked.
Beatrice avoiding saying Jessica's "corpse" in red a second time.
Beatrice confirms all five master keys are together in one place only at the very end.

Well, back to the drawing board I guess

The biggest hurdle are the stakes. Even if used as finishing touches after the deaths, how do they get there and who places them?

If anything this puts Gohda as the prime suspect.

Jessica's room being self-explanatory. In Natsuhi's room George is the only one with a wound that shouldn't be instantly lethal. So it could be possible that Gohda kills Shannon and wounds George, George kills Gohda and succumbs to his wounds. The murders stop after Gohda is killed. Although "all 18 were dead when the seagulls cried".
Still better than nothing

Again no need to say if it's remotly right or wrong, unless direclty contradicted in the episode.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Sauzer

*facepalm* Looks like I'm grasping at straws at this point.

I think that's the feeling we all had after EP2, but I would really heed GreyZone's advice and maybe also go back to EP1 and test some of your ideas there.

In Natsuhi's room George is the only one with a wound that shouldn't be instantly lethal. So it could be possible that Gohda kills Shannon and wounds George, George kills Gohda and succumbs to his wounds. The murders stop after Gohda is killed.

The question that remains here though is the same you asked as well, what about the stakes? Did Gohda place them? If yes, in your theory, why is George also staked? Did George put the stake into his own wound before dying in order to cover something up?

You have some very good ideas in terms of how murders could have been committed, but the question is also why and how things are connected.
If it was Gohda, why did he murder the parents? How did he kill them all?
If it was Jessica, why would she go so far to murder even her own parents and the person she seems to love?

I'm not saying anything you said is right or wrong, just that you should also try to draw a bigger picture except looking at individual closed rooms. Just see the whole island as one large closed room.