2011-07-13, 21:36 | Link #23181 | ||||
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Can you show me where Lambdadelta has been consistently literal and by-the-word throughout the rest of Game Five, or the rest of Umineko, even? She doesn't even get involved in that many red battles, so where the hell are you getting this? Quote:
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I'm merely making the case that from what I've seen, I don't see how this argument is consistent with Lambdadelta's character, which is first and foremost the most important thing before we touch anything else. Quote:
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2011-07-13, 21:49 | Link #23182 |
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And I can understand how you guys want to give common sense credit for defining the rules for us in this. However, those ''extreme'' examples you provided are ''extreme'' for a reason, mine is not. It makes sense, and it is pure and simple. Like I said, I am not ''using bullshit logic to have aliens fly around and abduct everyone'', there was no red saying that isn't the truth, what you're basically implying is that, because this logic can be abused even further, it is evil.
The ''It was all a delusion'' answer is also possible, and I'm not denying it. I am not suggesting to use reds to say bullshit like ''Battler can say he was born from Ushiromiya Asumu because he can actually mean his ''personality of Ushiromiya Battler, is born through the social interaction between Asumu and others, thus he can dodge the red'', and for this matter, they've pretty much done this with Beatrice, therefore I could probably honestly make an argument that Battler would be able to say those exact words and be able to pass it, this isn't like that. All I have done was interpret the reds differently, in accordance with the characters doing it ALL THE TIME in Umineko. Lambdadelta knows Bernkastel, Bernkastel would have eventually came to my conclusion if she really wanted to, I highly doubt Erika(ERIKA) would overlook this wording, she even asks Beatrice if ''people'' refers to ''bodies'', Lambdadelta was trying to make Erika despair, there's no way she would have skipped out on this. I am amazed they didn't think of it right away, as it is in Erika's character to do that, meaning she must have been deceived by this. Of course, this has a strong possibility of being wrong, but this supposedly CAN work, and it does NOT make the entire thing go into a clusterfuck of bullshit, there is no apparent problem with this answer, and I'd say it's a very effective way to keep a reader guessing. Yes, I can argue that Lambdadelta could basically word everything differently, but I'm not, because going THAT FAR would indeed be bullshit, I have shown many, many examples of the characters in-game doing this, even Battler himself. I have given scenario's that can work, and still overall lead us to the same conclusion EP 7 gave us, I have given slight possibilities that this may actually be slightly encouraged, isn't it unfair to just brush this all off as you guys are? But in any case, since I have apparently not been proved wrong, I can drop the subject again. Just felt like something I wanted to check. Also, Aura, um, why are you saying I need to chill out? I understand tones are hard to read over the internet, but damn. Anyway, I'm reading your post now and will prepare a response to it. Okay I'm gonna have to ask how the cheese riddle only foreshadowed the logic error(and how did it, by the way?). EDIT: Alright, I just wasted everyone's time, after re-reading the scene, Dlanor instantly proves me wrong, you guys are right. ''YES. It's the letter with the mark of the one-winged eagle, which appeared at 24:00 last night along with a knock by a mysterious PERSON.'' My argument, in case you guys are wondering, was based on this and I quote form Lambdadelta: ''I guess I'll start with the letter. There was a knock when the bell of the large clock rang out at 24:00. And when the door was opened there lay a letter in an envelope bearing the One-Winged Eagle. I figured, that if you guys were right, Lambdadelta wouldn't have even hesitated to use it to make Erika struggle, and Erika would eventually have found this out, as she twists definitions all the time. I thought that, Lambdadelta trying to make Erika struggle is obviously hiding this wording for a a reason, while it seems like she was in a superior ground like Beatrice, all it took was a simple rewording to have the meaning change completely. But I am not very convinced about this approach after I read what Dlanor said. Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-13 at 22:12. |
2011-07-13, 23:50 | Link #23183 | ||||
The True Culprit
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2011-07-14, 00:14 | Link #23184 | |
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On your last part, Battler could have had multiple intentions for that, what's not to say that he wanted to show the riddle to show that there are more than one ways to solve a riddle, maybe he wanted to hint Erika at this to show her how to love. At first she totally sneered at everyone else for failing to solve it, but later, it helped her to realize the ''double truth'' about Kannon in the guest room. I do, however, like the ''Genius-Battler'' theory, I would rather that one be correct in this case. Anyway, you are misunderstanding my intentions by your post it seems, I don't know how to explain them. Lets try this: This game has been likened to chess a lot, meaning you guys play chess by these rules, these rules are sacred, and there is nothing wrong with them. However, what if instead of using a chess board, you use a ''checkers board'', as your theory-making metaphor? In checkers, there is a rule where ''A piece must not deny jumping another piece''. Lets say that my pieces are blue truths, the blue pieces, I move out these hopeless blue pieces because ''they must be jumped even if it's obvious they can be'', this can be useful, by throwing away a useless piece of mine, it causes the other player to jump it, exposing their formation more and slowly unraveling their defense. However, what you guys seem to be doing is assuming the rules of chess, therefore getting angry at my move and not even continuing, or trying to make me go back to chess. While you can learn a lot about this tale using chess as your metaphor, that does not mean you are required only to use chess, and sticking to it as if it's the only game-board that can apply really doesn't answer my questions. Of course there are multiple meanings and such to this, I do not know how to explain it another way, and I am sure this will be misunderstood, but that's fine. Will said ''Don't neglect the heart'', but he never said ''Only follow the heart, because the truth can only be reached that way''. I do not think my theory is right anymore, so this post is meaningless I suppose, but I'll try to make it clear again if my intentions come into question a third time. Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-07-14 at 00:27. |
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2011-07-14, 01:26 | Link #23185 | |||
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This is, infact, the main point of EP5's lecture between Battler, Dlanor, and Virgilia. You're seeing the Red Truths as obstacles to be jumped over, not tools given to help you out. Quote:
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2011-07-14, 01:46 | Link #23186 | |||||
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On that note, Umineko reminds me of one specific 'mate in half a move' problem. I'll post it later, if rogerpepitone has no objections. Now then, onto the recent discussion. It's interesting, because I've talked about the reds with AuraTwilight before. I agreed they are guidelines... yet can't deny the fact that the solution itself is a way of dodging the red (which should not be necessary in that case, right?) through certain unclear definitions, or lack thereof. For that matter, what are they guiding us towards? Let's take a gander at some of the Question arcs: Quote:
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So, in retrospect, I enjoyed Umineko, but wouldn't ever consider presenting it to a friend as a murder mystery. Instead, it would be a story with mystery elements. |
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2011-07-14, 02:58 | Link #23187 | ||
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The more elegant solution is that the two characters are her personas in Rokkenjima Prime, but she writes them as being two separate individuals in the actual Games. However, they cannot do anything that Yasu alone can't do, or else it'd be magic (Both of them talking to Battler at the same time, etc). Quote:
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2011-07-14, 12:00 | Link #23188 | ||
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It's like Aura said. Genius Battler is the only thematic explanation that makes ep6 more than a series of happenstance bumblings and a giant waste of our time. Genius Battler thematically ties up the entire episode with a neat bow and considering literally everything Battler does the entire episode can be read between the lines as directed toward doing with Beatrice exactly what winds up happening, I can't see any other solution. I grant that it's one of my pet theories and being its originator (as far as I know) makes be biased towards it but damn if it don't make more sense than the alternatives.
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"Something like Krauss disguising himself as Kinzo" initially appears to be different from Shannon and Kanon, but in fact there's little or no reason to actually make this claim. We accept that Krauss and Kinzo are separate people and that, therefore, Krauss posing as him would be a Knox violation without hints to the contrary. Yet because, I think, people have long assumed Shkanon to be true, they just handwave the fact that Shannon and Kanon are likewise portrayed as entirely independent people in the first episode, and if the first episode can be solved through a self-contained Knox-respecting answer, Shkanon would be equally as unfair as Kraussinzo. Imagine, for example, that Krauss disguising as Kinzo became a strong hint in ep5. Would that be a valid solution to ep4 now that we know Krauss can pose as Kinzo? I don't think so. I think we can probably demonstrate in ep2 that Shkanon is a possibility and a probable solution, but using that information to go back is a bit odd. Bear in mind ep1 is still solvable with the Shannon conclusion based solely on the information in that episode. The Kanon connection just isn't there at that time. Does that mean the episode isn't cheating because Kanon isn't an essential part of the solution? Maybe... but Kanon is never an essential part of any solution in Umineko, with a tiny handful of exceptions. If nothing else, Kanon existing is literally irrelevant to the solutions of ep1-4. My point is less that you can't solve it without an un-hinted Shkanon, but rather that having it there at all seems to do nothing but cheat for cheating's sake and to no particular end whatsoever.
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2011-07-14, 13:34 | Link #23189 | |
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But it actually works quite well because there is never any need for that much disguising and stealth methods, as long as we accept that everybody kept shut about the fact that there was no Kanon... It's quite possible that in the original world nobody even knew that Yasu was doing a seperate role thing...it's just something that worked in her fictions. And isn't the improbability of that not another big hint towards a possible actuall truth?! But even if their was a disguise in front of Battler, it wouldn't even be that much of an intricate system. In EP1 he meets Kanon in the garden and later when he picks them up for dinner (commenting that Maria is missing). The next time Battler meets Kanon there is no need for switching anymore because Shannon is "dead". In EP2 he meets Kanon in the mansion when Maria is missing and in the chapel before Jessica runs out. After that Kanon vanishes and only the Shannon clothes are needed. In EP3 he probably only has the meeting in the garden, I can't even find any specific scenes where they meet at all. In EP4 I think he only meets him when Maria is brought in from the garden and he gets some towels. It's not hard to create such small events...everything else is told by the same people who say they are meeting people who are already dead, lie about their past, hide their true agenda or have their own reason's for deception. Among all the lies told throughout the Episodes where Battler is the detective...is it so hard to believe in such an innocent lie like Kanon?! And another problem is that Battler is a detective with limited credibility. People won't reveal themselves to him unless he can be used to their advantage because they don't trust him either. Even after the murders people would have reasons to keep the identity of Kanon/Shannon a secret out of different reasons even if they actually knew. The detective cannot lie to us, but people can lie to the detective...and actually that's what's happening the whole game... |
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2011-07-14, 13:42 | Link #23190 |
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That's not exactly my point. My point is more that it serves no good narrative function. Indeed, based on the most recent information provided, the one point at which Shkanon is a supposedly necessary element of a solution, we aren't even expected to treat the existing narrative as though it needs to make any logical sense. It's a flat-out betrayal of Ryukishi's own themes.
I could expand on this and write up Yet Another Shkanon Diatribe based on post-ep8 interview information, but I think we're all probably sick of hearing about it.
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2011-07-14, 14:06 | Link #23191 | |||
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Could it be that this 'Genius Battler' is really the author... in other words, Tooya-Battler? Because the author has the ability to arrange everything in the story like that. If he wants Meta-Battler to win in the end, he does. Usually. 8) I was suspicious of this when Meta-Battler stated that he was ok with stating the individual names of the people in the other room. But, I was thinking that this was a dodge by the author. Meta-Battler would've been okay, but the author required him not to. So the circumstances ended up fitting this neat scenario that only Tooya-Battler would care about. .... I think. I'm not 100% sure why Tooya-Battler didn't want to name Kanon by name and separate from Shannon, but beyond the simple Shkannon excuse, I'm guessing he also didn't want to reveal the mechanics of Shkannon at that time. Anyways, this is the reason why I half believe your theory; it's just that it's not Meta-Battler who did planned everything perfectly, but Tooya-Battler.... This ends up encapsulating any weird things like accidents or coincidences that Meta-Battler would've needed to set up and have people fall into. Quote:
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I think after a certain point of going through Umineko, we needed to partition whether we're solving individual epsiodes or twilights... or whether we're trying to solve the 'why' behind everything. |
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2011-07-14, 14:06 | Link #23192 | |||
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Even if they weren't, it still has to be Gamemaster Battler who planned everything himself or else his EP8 characterization is a legitimate plothole. It can't merely be Toya making him win.
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2011-07-14, 14:48 | Link #23193 |
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Perhaps, but in that case the revelation that Krauss has always been Kinzo would be equivalent, apparently break no rules (not that Beatrice is necessarily bound by the rules, but it feels wrong to introduce things you're just ignoring), and yet still not feel at all right.
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2011-07-14, 20:44 | Link #23195 | |
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2011-07-14, 22:28 | Link #23196 | ||
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An author though, is not. He knows what everyone is thinking and he can subtly (or not so subtly when he fails) guide people into traps, errors, mistakes, etc. By the way, I just realized I'm thinking more about how Erika was manipulated into losing. This point I'm thinking it was more an author's doing. However, I remember people talking about Genius Battler as in manipulating the events in order to cause the rebirth of Beatrice. Ok, this part, I'm thinking that Meta Battler may have been capable of setting up the situation to do so. Authorial powers aren't necessary. I mean, all he really had to do was throw the game and leave the last solution as Shkannon for Moetrice to 'remember'. 8) Quote:
Hmm... now that we've finished EP8, it occurs to me that the author levels look like this: Ryukishi Tooya-Battler and Ikuko Featherine With descending power over the whole story as you go down. (i.e. Ryukishi can control nearly 100% of the story, except when it becomes illogical or absurd. Tooya can nearly 100% control the Meta-World but not his or Ange Prime's real story. And Featherine can nearly control any subordinate beings in the Meta-World, but cannot truly control her own, etc... etc.) |
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2011-07-14, 22:54 | Link #23197 | |
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If he didn't act like he were on equal footing, even if he wasn't, he'd be a God Mode Sue.
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2011-07-15, 10:12 | Link #23198 |
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It's not strictly necessary to Genius Battler that he knew for sure that Beatrice actually would get him out, but I'm almost certain that he knew full well what he was getting into and that there weren't any actual tricks from Erika he wasn't anticipating. He doesn't have to have known exactly how she would trick him, just that she was planning to retroactively screw up his game. The elements are everywhere in the structure of his game:
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2011-07-15, 11:47 | Link #23199 | |
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2011-07-15, 12:24 | Link #23200 | |
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Indeed, no other number of seals would work for either of them. Plus you sort of have to keep in mind every other part of his behavior that applies to the idea.
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