Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

I honestly believe it was a dream, Maria's delusions and all that stuff.

I'm less than certain that Maria's delusions aren't real on some level. But eh.

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

She's starting to get on my nerves at this point...she's willing to kill her mother over a stuffed doll....Rosa may have done worse things than ripping apart Sakutaro but to kill and go apeshit over a doll is something that makes me believe Maria has some issues real issues.

Don't forget that, to Maria, Sakutaro wasn't just a stuffed doll, but a real, flesh-and-blood person.

What Maria saw her mother do was tear apart a little boy with her bare hands. She saw her mother forcibly rip in two the only person in the world who truly cared about her.

You're disconnecting from Maria's version of reality. Don't, it's essential for understanding her character. Furthermore, it wasn't just because of Sakutaro's death, it was the built-up hatred from years and years of neglect.

Her mother gloating over the destruction of her child's beloved toy was only the allegorical straw. You'll notice her psychotic behaviour only starts after Sakutaro's death.

Rosa drove her daughter to madness.

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

People cheering over that kind of thing frankly disturbs me. Rosa in the dream was obviously a delusion of Maria the black witch. It's stupid how Maria tries to justify killing her mother over and over again, by saying she is possessed. If the rules of magic were real and absolute Rosa as the black witch should have been able to do something other than take Maria's death blows like a champ. Maria had nothing more than a dream a psychotic one at that.

Rosa isn't the black witch, she's possessed by the black witch. Very different. Also, yes, Maria is insane, but there's a reason for that (see above).

Rosa is the most terrible person in the entire Umineko cast and deserves everything what was coming to her.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Spoiler for thoughts on the dream:

I think the dream (and Maria apparently becoming a "true witch" according to Beato in it) is symbolic of Maria choosing the belief that Rosa had been abandoning her over her prior belief (as written in the diary) that Rosa was working hard for both of them. Since Rosa hadn't done anything worse in EP4 up to that point than had occurred for the previous EPs (sure, you see more, but it was pre-game), you'd expect that the dream is a constant.

It's worth noting that (even if the anime makes some weird facial expression choices) Maria isn't nearly as creepy until the second day, and the dream probably also ties into her seriously unnatural perspective when people are dying all around her.

If anything, Maria is the one who's getting possessed by the "black witch" at this point.

...Rule Z? Actually, the dream being a constant makes a lot of sense. That's interesting.

[Vegitto-kun]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

It's definitely pretty funny how the "black witch" doesn't seem to have any magic to speak of, even in the magic world.

Spoiler for thoughts on the dream:

I think the dream (and Maria apparently becoming a "true witch" according to Beato in it) is symbolic of Maria choosing the belief that Rosa had been abandoning her over her prior belief (as written in the diary) that Rosa was working hard for both of them. Since Rosa hadn't done anything worse in EP4 up to that point than had occurred for the previous EPs (sure, you see more, but it was pre-game), you'd expect that the dream is a constant.

It's worth noting that (even if the anime makes some weird facial expression choices) Maria isn't nearly as creepy until the second day, and the dream probably also ties into her seriously unnatural perspective when people are dying all around her.

If anything, Maria is the one who's getting possessed by the "black witch" at this point.

By the way, who thought of NICE BOAT's TV version (with the black blood) here?

Well she had black blood in the VN too so yeaaaah

[k//eternal]

Oh, I know it was supposed to be that way in this case and that it isn't censoring, but that isn't the point, either.

[Vegitto-kun]

I Just didn't get the nice boat/black blood part. Probably since I never watched school days

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Vegitto-kun

I Just didn't get the nice boat/black blood part.

Pay attention to what Beato said after Rosa coughed up all that black gunk though.

She said it was the physical manifestation of all the "filth" or whatever that was inside her, and never said it was specificlly blood.

Filth accociates with the color black I s'pose.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Pay attention to what Beato said after Rosa coughed up all that black gunk though.

She said it was the physical manifestation of all the "filth" or whatever that was inside her, and never said it was specificlly blood.

Filth accociates with the color black I s'pose.

To be specific, it was the filthy black tar of a tearless, soulless being.

[k//eternal]

I guess somebody else inherited Kinzo's black blood, eh!?

[Chadauw]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Sakutaro is a metaphor of Maria's pure heart or perhaps a metaphor of her sanity. By the time Rosa ripped the stuffed lion apart, Maria literally lost it.

Hum, for me Sakutaro is more like a metaphor of Rosa's love for Maria.

After all, he was created as a proof of this love. And he is the one who always tries to convince Maria that Rosa is working hard for her.

[Jan-Poo]

Well the tips about sakutaro say:

"His existence is Lady MARIA's white heart itself. You could even say that he is another Lady MARIA and he is an irreplaceable existence to her."

and after execute

"Lady MARIA's white heart, which was torn apart"

[Marion]

Yeah I agree with Jan Poo. If you look back on all the scenes with Sakutaro before the ripping he was always telling Maria that Rosa loved her and keeping her from being lonely or sad. So when Rosa basically ripped apart Sakutaro you can say she also ripped apart Maria's belief in her.

[Chadauw]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well the tips about sakutaro say:

"His existence is Lady MARIA's white heart itself. You could even say that he is another Lady MARIA and he is an irreplaceable existence to her."

and after execute

"Lady MARIA's white heart, which was torn apart"

Oh yeah, I forgot about this one.

So it's more like "the part of Maria that believed in Rosa".

[kitten320]

I really don't get Rosa... if she hated Maria that much then why the hell did she keep her? She could do abortion or give her to adoption. Like this she wouldn't have a child and could find a guy as she wished for. So what was the problem? A status? I really doubt that the way she treated Maria gave her any better status.

Then again if she hated her that much then why did she beg witch-Eva to spare Maria? Why did she go looking for her and why did she bother to do Sunotaro with her own hands? She could easily buy a toy instead of wasting her time.

Rosa is contradicting herself.


And about Maria, yes here it is pictured as if Sunatora was a real person, but let's look at real life situation. There are a lot of people who imagine a simple toy as something more, as a real person but that doesn't make them real. Do you really consider it normal if someone like that had killed you for a mere toy?

The whole story with talking Sunotaro could easily be taken as her imagination world since nor Rosa, nor anyone else saw it more than a toy. It has never done anything to be special for anyone. If not the whole constant tearing apart what had proved that Sunotaro really was a living being, Maria would be considered a sick person who lives in imaginary world. Or the whole scene could be taken as dream, but have no idea where it had happened...

Nor Rosa's nor Maria's actions can be justified. Although I do feel sorry for Maria FAR more and yet I still don't aprove her actions.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by kitten320

I really don't get Rosa... if she hated Maria that much then why the hell did she keep her? She could do abortion or give her to adoption. Like this she wouldn't have a child and could find a guy as she wished for. So what was the problem? A status? I really doubt that the way she treated Maria gave her any better status.

Then again if she hated her that much then why did she beg witch-Eva to spare Maria? Why did she go looking for her and why did she bother to do Sunotaro with her own hands? She could easily buy a toy instead of wasting her time.

Rosa is contradicting herself.


And about Maria, yes here it is pictured as if Sunatora was a real person, but let's look at real life situation. There are a lot of people who imagine a simple toy as something more, as a real person but that doesn't make them real. Do you really consider it normal if someone like that had killed you for a mere toy?

The whole story with talking Sunotaro could easily be taken as her imagination world since nor Rosa, nor anyone else saw it more than a toy. It has never done anything to be special for anyone. If not the whole constant tearing apart what had proved that Sunotaro really was a living being, Maria would be considered a sick person who lives in imaginary world. Or the whole scene could be taken as dream, but have no idea where it had happened...

Nor Rosa's nor Maria's actions can be justified. Although I do feel sorry for Maria FAR more and yet I still don't aprove her actions.

First of all; Sakutaro, not Sunataro

Rosa is a very complicated character, and she's hard to explain. She kept Maria because she would look down on by her family (who already treat her like shit for the most part). Usually she's not slapping Maria around in front of everybody, either.

She loves Maria, yet she hates Maria. Rosa never felt like she could be satisfied because of her daughter, because Maria (being a young girl who needs to be taken care of) needs her help/attention a lot, but Rosa would like to do more in her life than just take care of Maria by herself.

Sakutaro is an imaginary friend of Maria, she holds it up and pretends to talk for it, which is why Rosa yelled at her to stop voicing Sakutaro. Maria made Sakutaro up because she was lonely, with the only person in her life always away at work, or with some boyfriends staying at a hotel eating crabs....

The scene where Maria tortures Rosa to death while Beatrice watches is a dream segment, because Maria wakes up moments after the scene. She's obviously pissed at Rosa, because Sakutaro was ripped relatively recently still I'd assume... probably somewhere between 6 months before this meeting and the current day the show takes place.

[kitten320]

My bad about name spelling!

Well if the whole scene was a dream, then it takes down some of my complaints^^

Well that explains things, thank you^^

[TheDarkLatias]

Don't Mind Me, But...I've Never Played Any Of The Games, Just Watched The Anime...So, I Might Not Know What Some Of You Are Talking About! ^^;