[Manga] Chapter 446 Discussion

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Some chapters ago i described this situation as what would trigger Naruto leaving the village and going on a journey to find answers. And after that Danzou trying to take the leadership of the village and of course the arrival of Sasuke. Among other reasons that i mentioned in that post the most important is that a Naruto vs Sasuke battle seems way too early, and i'm sure that Naruto must learn of Itachi's whole life before he fights Sasuke because that's the only way he can talk to Sasuke, otherwise he would have to kill Sasuke which clearly is not an option.

I like that...except....Naruto right now is shown as the hero of the village.
There is no way he can leave right now..especially since the village is destroyed.

After Konoha gets rebuild he must continue with his journey. Except Sasuke isn't going to wait for that. Still i really wonder just HOW Danzou would be chosen as the Hokage. Perhaps the Feudal Lord gets killed and Danzou, the advisors and the Roots will have a majority in the vote for Danzou's signature.

But that also means that Tsunade will have to die. It's going to be ALOT harder for Danzou to become Hokage then it's for Naruto right now that's for sure. But if all is okay it would indeed be nice if Naruto goes on a journey alone (while Konoha gets completely restored). Perhaps he'll re-appear in the frog world again after the MASTER of all the frogs the Oracle tells Naruto his destiny. Which will mostlikely be that he'll die or kill Uchiha Sasuke.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Some chapters ago i described this situation as what would trigger Naruto leaving the village and going on a journey to find answers. And after that Danzou trying to take the leadership of the village and of course the arrival of Sasuke. Among other reasons that i mentioned in that post the most important is that a Naruto vs Sasuke battle seems way too early, and i'm sure that Naruto must learn of Itachi's whole life before he fights Sasuke because that's the only way he can talk to Sasuke, otherwise he would have to kill Sasuke which clearly is not an option.

Naruto already understands what it means to lose the thing (or one of the things) he loves the most: he lost Konoha and Jiraiya (and (probably) Kakashi and Fuka-ojichan) to a fellow apprentice of Jiraiya's (which isn't quite the same as a familial bond that Sasuke and Itachi had, but it is somewhat comparable). So, he can already understand Sasuke's pain. And, by choosing a different answer (even if Nagato is immediatly killed by Danzou), Naruto will be able to fight Sasuke with his convictions fully intact. Added to that, depending on how Danzou's role in Nagato's story pans out, Naruto will probably have sufficient knowledge to know that Konoha can betray allies, so there is no need to know the specifics of the Uchiha massacre (additionally, there is the possibility that whatever Itachi placed in Naruto, could be similar to what Itachi placed in Sasuke: specifically, if Naruto ever encounters Danzou, then something may occur in/with Naruto - he could either gain the Uchiha information, or possibly attack Danzou, or something to that effect).

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Biggums

Whats with this whole Arrival of Sasuke? Why do people think he's coming to Konoha...

Because Sasuke wants to destroy Konoha and kill the elders, how he will do it if he doesn't come to Konoha?

And I like the idea of Naruto leaving Konoha to go on a journey...not alone, me thinks Hinita will go with him and we'll get a small time skip.

Lol... more wishful thinking...
Being a Ninja is serious business, you just can't go and leave an army, you became a missing nin and thus, your head will have a price on it.

[FireDetei]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Oracle tells Naruto his destiny. Which will mostlikely be that he'll die or kill Uchiha Sasuke.

Something thats been bugging me this whole time about Naruto and the "child of destiny" stuff - During the Naruto/Neji fight there was a massive emphasis from Naruto and also Neji's father, and essentially Kishimoto, that Destiny is not written in stone and that you make your own choices in life. I just dont understand how this can now be swiped to one side, and now have a "destiny" as the fundimental element in all logic within the story. Although I have only seen the Naruto/Neji scene on anime, so could be different.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Being a Ninja is serious business, you just can't go and leave an army, you became a missing nin and thus, your head will have a price on it.

Jiraiya has been seen to have twice stayed away from Konoha for a period of time. During his Toad-training and also when he found Yohiko, Konan and Nagato. If i remember correctly he even decided to stay with the orphans himself. Even since then he's been seen to have been away for long periods, tho could be guessed these have been for scouting reasons. Naruto's the saviour of the village and the "destroyer of pain" - I dont see any reason for him not to be allowed to go and besides, who in Konoha would have the ability to stop him?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Naruto already understands what it means to lose the thing (or one of the things) he loves the most: he lost Konoha and Jiraiya (and (probably) Kakashi and Fuka-ojichan) to a fellow apprentice of Jiraiya's (which isn't quite the same as a familial bond that Sasuke and Itachi had, but it is somewhat comparable). So, he can already understand Sasuke's pain. And, by choosing a different answer (even if Nagato is immediatly killed by Danzou), Naruto will be able to fight Sasuke with his convictions fully intact. Added to that, depending on how Danzou's role in Nagato's story pans out, Naruto will probably have sufficient knowledge to know that Konoha can betray allies, so there is no need to know the specifics of the Uchiha massacre.

Naruto must learn the truth about the Uchiha clan and about Itachi, otherwise he cannot speak about that to Sasuke. In that case things would end just like they ended in their first big fight, Sasuke said that Naruto does not know anything. Take for example the current situation, Naruto does not know anything about Nagato, so he asks him to tell his story, without knowing the truth he can't answer Nagato's question. The same goes for Sasuke's case, Naruto must know the question to answer it, right now Naruto doesn't even know what would be the question that Sasuke asks, and much less he knows about what could he answer.

Originally Posted by james0246

(additionally, there is the possibility that whatever Itachi placed in Naruto, could be similar to what Itachi placed in Sasuke: specifically, if Naruto ever encounters Danzou, then something may occur in/with Naruto - he could either gain the Uchiha information, or possibly attack Danzou, or something to that effect)

I think you are severely overestimating Danzou, his power is way below of Naruto's level. I think it's quite clear that Itachi gave to Naruto a power against MS, that is Sasuke and Madara.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by FireDetei

Something thats been bugging me this whole time about Naruto and the "child of destiny" stuff - During the Naruto/Neji fight there was a massive emphasis from Naruto and also Neji's father, and essentially Kishimoto, that Destiny is not written in stone and that you make your own choices in life. I just dont understand how this can now be swiped to one side, and now have a "destiny" as the fundimental element in all logic within the story. Although I have only seen the Naruto/Neji scene on anime, so could be different.

The whole Prophecy child angle will undoubtedly be enacted ala Harry Potter or Star Wars. Specifically, the prophecy will turn out to be something that occurs despite the dedicated character actions (ala Harry Potter whose sole purpose is to let the bad guy kill himself; or Star Wars were either Luke fulfills the prophecy by making Vader human again, or Vader fulfills the prophecy by not letting Luke die, etc (or whatever your interpretation of the Star Wars prophecy is). So, I expect that the prophecy will be something silly like: Minato fulfilled the prophecy by placing the Kyuubi in Naruto; Naruto fulfilled the prophecy by not letting the Kyuubi be captured; or Nagato will fulfill the prophecy by explaining his history to Naruto. etc.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Naruto must learn the truth about the Uchiha clan and about Itachi, otherwise he cannot speak about that to Sasuke. In that case things would end just like they ended in their first big fight, Sasuke said that Naruto does not know anything. Take for example the current situation, Naruto does not know anything about Nagato, so he asks him to tell his story, without knowing the truth he can't answer Nagato's question. The same goes for Sasuke's case, Naruto must know the question to answer it, right now Naruto doesn't even know what would be the question that Sasuke asks, and much less he knows about what could he answer.

No you are looking at it all wrong. Naruto is doing what Sasuke should have done all along - talking to the person he wants to kill (admittedly, Sasuke wasn't actually powerful enough to fight and defeat Itachi, so Itachi killing himself is almost the only answer to that fight outside of postponing it for a few more years). Their stories are almost directly comparable now, so Naruto does not truly need to know the history of the clan (outside of the preamble Sasuke will undoubtedly give during their fight) to defeat Sasuke (added to that, knowing that Danzou was responsible for the creation of Pain ultimately means that both Naruto and Sasuke have felt the pain that Danzou creates via the spreading of his ideals, so Sasuke bringing Danzou up would only force Naruto to acknowledge that Danzou s bad, not that Konoha is bad). He knows almost exactly what Sasuke's pain is (a force destroyed what he loved, so now he wants to destroy that force), any other information is ultimately peripheral to understanding Sasuke's pain.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I think you are severely overestimating Danzou, his power is way below of Naruto's level. I think it's quite clear that Itachi gave to Naruto a power against MS, that is Sasuke and Madara.

Entirely possible. I was only voicing possibilities for a power we really know nothing about. I could see Itachi using Naruto to take care of Danzou, considering that Itachi does consider Danzou to be a threat to Sasuke. Added to that, this is before both Sasuke and Naruto's power-up, so Itachi giving Naruto something to fight Danzou (even if it is just info) is very conceivable.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by FireDetei

Something thats been bugging me this whole time about Naruto and the "child of destiny" stuff - During the Naruto/Neji fight there was a massive emphasis from Naruto and also Neji's father, and essentially Kishimoto, that Destiny is not written in stone and that you make your own choices in life. I just dont understand how this can now be swiped to one side, and now have a "destiny" as the fundimental element in all logic within the story. Although I have only seen the Naruto/Neji scene on anime, so could be different.

I think it is still that way, the frog's premonition didn't say what was going to happen, he said these are the possibilities (Like the oracle from the matrix, she tels him what he needs to here, and he figures the rest on his own).. J_Man Made the choice to defeat Pain, he gave his life for the secret and chose naruto as the destined child... Also Ive seen many argument's that because he is Minato's son, and the child of destiny that Neji was right... However being a decedent of a great person or family doesn't mean you are born to be something great, look at Obito, Hinata... along with naruto they all have prestige running through there veins yet they were all classified as losers... Sasuke, Neji, Kakashi were all known as geniuses and from a very young age people would believe they were destined to be something great... What Naruto said is true, he might have been a loser, and many people thought that's all he would ever be... but he proved them wrong... Furthermore the whole "child of destiny" could still destroy the world.. (Even though this is a shonen and his destiny was written in stone from the very first pageee... but neji can hardly use that in his defense)

Jiraiya has been seen to have twice stayed away from Konoha for a period of time. During his Toad-training and also when he found Yohiko, Konan and Nagato. If i remember correctly he even decided to stay with the orphans himself. Even since then he's been seen to have been away for long periods, tho could be guessed these have been for scouting reasons. Naruto's the saviour of the village and the "destroyer of pain" - I dont see any reason for him not to be allowed to go and besides, who in Konoha would have the ability to stop him?

Might be more inclined to "who in konoha has the ability to stop everyone else" ... its not like he has the luxury that J_Man had, with Minato, Hiruzen protecting the village.. he might not even have Kakashi to hold the fort while he is gallivanting around the world in search of peace lol... There is also a village to restore, and in the state they are in, they are more at threat than ever before of being invaded by other villages.. Your strongest asset in battle can't just leave... however I will not count out him being driven out, then there is not much he could do by journey around the narutoverse..

[kodok_balls]

Originally Posted by filthydani

i wouldnt be surprized if Danzou is the only one who can compete with madara at the moment

agreed...........

Originally Posted by Mateus

Danzou's looking more and more like a real bastard each time he gets a page...

Soo damn right... honestly he is my second favourite char in narutoverse after orochimaru. and now I'm beginning to switch him as no. one...

genius, tricky, backstabber, badass, militant, puppetmaster ( behind uchiha massacre and maybe many other important ocassion or tragedy ), and last but not least I'm really sure that he is the one who is at the same level with Madara rite now. or else he is Madara himself playing some plot and pulling strings from behind

And for the next page of the spoiler I don;t think Nagato's rampage is enough to kick both hanzou and danzou's ass or made them retreat and pissing at the same time. I predict the opposite instead. Nagato's wrath will end in he is being toyed and tortured by both of zous badass untill he get his body torn and handicapped.. ( hanzou is one of the most powerful shinobi that even Jiraiya think there should be no one could defeat him alone + Danzou is at the same level as Sarutobi whose supposed to be pretty powerful... )

[DarkHollowIchigo]

I swear...i thought i disliked Orochimaru...but Danzou is like a #($&**#()@ of a whole new lvl.
I knew he was a sneaky bast@rd, but him beeing involved with all this.

Danzou, may you die slowly and very painfull

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by kodok_balls

agreed...........



Soo damn right... honestly he is my second favourite char in narutoverse after orochimaru. and now I'm beginning to switch him as no. one...

genius, tricky, backstabber, badass, militant, puppetmaster ( behind uchiha massacre and maybe many other important ocassion or tragedy ), and last but not least I'm really sure that he is the one who is at the same level with Madara rite now. or else he is Madara himself playing some plot and pulling strings from behind

And for the next page of the spoiler I don;t think Nagato's rampage is enough to kick both hanzou and danzou's ass or made them retreat and pissing at the same time. I predict the opposite instead. Nagato's wrath will end in he is being toyed and tortured by both of zous badass untill he get his body torn and handicapped.. ( hanzou is one of the most powerful shinobi that even Jiraiya think there should be no one could defeat him alone + Danzou is at the same level as Sarutobi whose supposed to be pretty powerful... )

Firstly we know Hanzou dies against Nagato at some point... whether it is here is still unknown... I have a feeling he releases his rinnegan and in doing so destroys hanzou, and injuring danzou... it might be the cause of danzou's busted up body...

Or he might be defeated by Hanzou & Danzou.. loosing his legs etc thus leading to the birth of pain.. in which he takes revenge on Hanzou...

As for your comment that danzou is on the same lvl as Hiruzen.. It was never stated that they were equal's... just that they competed for the title of Hokage in which he lost out to Sarutobi... which sorta leans toward Sarutobi being the superior of the 2... however Im sure he is strong none the less..

BTW did anyone read the spoiler about Hanzou & Danzou being brothers.. I think ill just wait til the chapter comes out..

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by DarkHollowIchigo

I swear...i thought i disliked Orochimaru...but Danzou is like a #($&**#()@ of a whole new lvl.
I knew he was a sneaky bast@rd, but him beeing involved with all this.

Danzou, may you die slowly and very painfull

LOL!! Haha you are probably also annoyed by the fact that it's a cripple old geezer that's doing all this. People had reasons to dislike Orochimaru and to like him as a villain but... this Danzou is cripple, old, tricky, killed one of the frogs, responsible for almost everything that has occured in the rain village in the past, wanted to kill Sasuke, hates the pretty much every Hokage.

Yeah i dislike him aswell..but the same goes for the other advisors..

[Tyrone Biggums]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Because Sasuke wants to destroy Konoha and kill the elders, how he will do it if he doesn't come to Konoha?


Lol... more wishful thinking...
Being a Ninja is serious business, you just can't go and leave an army, you became a missing nin and thus, your head will have a price on it.

Konoha is destroyed. Nothing left for him to do, unless he wants to start massacarring the innocent populace. Which I hope he does so all the Sasuke lovers can cry when he gets taken down.

And IF Naruto does leave...I doubt Konoha/ Tsunade would let him go alone. He is a Jinchuriki and they would send some protection with him...maybe on a volunteer base?

Ah damn, I just need a chapter.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Biggums

Konoha is destroyed. Nothing left for him to do, unless he wants to start massacarring the innocent populace. Which I hope he does so all the Sasuke lovers can cry when he gets taken down.

And IF Naruto does leave...I doubt Konoha/ Tsunade would let him go alone. He is a Jinchuriki and they would send some protection with him...maybe on a volunteer base?

Ah damn, I just need a chapter.

Well I hardly think that destroying a bunch of buildings was ever Sasuke's plan.. and that is essentially what pain has done.. yes there are casualties, but pain failed to destroy konoha... Naruto stands, along with Tsunade, and many other named and fodder ninja.. and yes there is still the civilian population... Sasuke's will to destroy konoha is still very much a possibility.

[Spicy~Noodles]

This is Naruto's cue to kill Pein and then kill Danzou. Too bad hes such a good boy.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Biggums

Konoha is destroyed. Nothing left for him to do, unless he wants to start massacarring the innocent populace. Which I hope he does so all the Sasuke lovers can cry when he gets taken down.

We already talked about the concept of "destruction".... yes, Konoha's infrastrucutre is destroyed, but it takes a little more to actually destroy a city. Just look Europe, after centuries of wars and 2 WW, Berlin, Paris, London and a lot of anothers cities are still there. Just look at Japan, 2 atomic bombs and several incendiaries raids over Tokyo, Kyoto, etc... and the cities are there too.

Konoha's social structure is there, Tsunade as the head of the people, there is a lot of ninjas still standing and most important: the new generation. Sure there is a lot of casualties though.

Sasuke does wants to start a massacre, he sees konoha as a mere "Senju followers", i don't know if that speech was for real or if was a facade to avoid any Madara's suspicion.

And IF Naruto does leave...I doubt Konoha/ Tsunade would let him go alone. He is a Jinchuriki and they would send some protection with him...maybe on a volunteer base?

IF... it's just a word expressing a wish. But, first, i highly doubt that Tsunade in her situation let Naruto do that and Naruto really respect her and her orders. It would take 2 o 3 punches from Sakura to convince him to not make the same than Sasuke.

Ah damn, I just need a chapter.

We all need it

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by DarkHollowIchigo

I swear...i thought i disliked Orochimaru...but Danzou is like a #($&**#()@ of a whole new lvl.
I knew he was a sneaky bast@rd, but him beeing involved with all this.

Danzou, may you die slowly and very painfull

Man I find it funny that a majority of people r gonna love him 4 being just that but rant and rave and hate on Sasuke for seeking "his so called retribution"

and a majority of reasons for hating Sasuke and other unmentionables are based on baised hatred and bullshit

Too much villans are being loved these days

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Konoha's social structure is there, Tsunade as the head of the people, there is a lot of ninjas still standing and most important: the new generation. Sure there is a lot of casualties though

Who would lol if Danzou wiped out the people protecting Tsunade and killed Tsunade himself thus taking Konoha under his control before sending assassination attempts on Naruto forcing Naruto out of Konoha.

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Who would lol if Danzou wiped out the people protecting Tsunade and killed Tsunade himself thus taking Konoha under his control before sending assassination attempts on Naruto forcing Naruto out of Konoha.

That's true but remember he still has to deal with

1) Sage Naruto
2) Team Guy
3) ANBU members (InoShikaCho team)
4) Anko
5) Sai
6) Captian Yamato
7) Other members of the Rookie #9

After these guys r gone it should b easy pickings from here on out

Plus should Gaara & co. catch wind of this, I don't think an alliance will be likely, they'll more side with Naruto & gang. Something also tells me Danzou & Madara r working hand in hand as well. (Gut instinct)

[Tyrone Biggums]

Question:

Wasn't Team Gai on the way to help Naruto? I remember a few chapters ago they said they were going to go...not sure if they ignored the Slug to not help Naruto.

Thoughts on them showing up in a few chapters and interuppting the chat between the 2?

[Emilis]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I think you are severely overestimating Danzou, his power is way below of Naruto's level. I think it's quite clear that Itachi gave to Naruto a power against MS, that is Sasuke and Madara.

And who do you think Danzou is? I would like to take a shot at this and would like to hear if anyone can think of some holes in this idea.

Danzou is Madara. Whether his true identity was known or not by anyone when he became a leader of Konoha I don't know, but it should be no surprise that the leader of ANBU root wouldn't use his real identity. This position allowed him to keep a close eye on Konoha, end eventually he wishes to use it to become the Hokage (a stated goal of both Danzou and Madara). As akasuki gained power, he decided he needed to keep tabs on them at the same time, and decided to use an Uchia to do this. After Obito was left by the fourth's team, my guess is Madara rescued him and began to train him. With the help of Kakashi’s abandonment and failure to save Rin, he cultivates Obito’s desire for revenge on Konoha. Obito unlocks the mangenkyo sharengan after witnessing the death of Rin, and Madara sacrifices his own right eye to make Obito’s remaining eye permanent. He claims that one permanent MS is more than enough to keep their enemies under control. While pulling the strings in Konoha as Danzou, Madara has Obito keep tabs on Akasuki in his place. Using the MS, Obito convinces Nagato that he is Madara, and assumes the identity of Tobi in front of the other members.

As far as I’m concerned, this explanation answers a lot of questions.
What the crap is Danzou’s problem?
If Tobi is Madara, why does he keep a perfectly good MS covered at all times (even in flashbacks when he helped Itachi)?
How else would the death of Rin be explained if both Kakashi and Obito are really dead now?
Danzou’s right eye remains bandaged even in this flashback from several years ago.
How does Tobi move “at the freekin speed of light”? (He was trained by the yellow flash and could have learned the technique using his sharengen back then)
Also I can hardly believe that even to protect his identity, Madara would act like as big of a goof as Tobi does. Obito on the other hand was the joker on his team.

The one problem I do see is that Obito's and Madara's goals would eventually clash if Madara wants to rule Konoha, and Obito wants to destroy it. That said Sasuke served Orochimaru for years knowing their goals would clash, so it wouldn't be the first time we saw that. Maybe Obito thought he would be able to handle Madara with whatever Akasuki's planning with the Biiju's.