To Aru Majutsu no Index Light Novel Discussion (Archives)

[Flames]

So Kakine lost to the bettle because the bettle decided to become Kakine himself?. I don't understand how he lost to himself when the bettle even admits he is can never be anything but Kakine so how can he be any different from himself.

[Master Assassin]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

Yes! This means that there will be comedy segments that Kakine will have with Accelerator and ITEM
can you imagine it!?!?!

He's probably going to be the always smiling idiot type!

This is the limitless possibilities Kakine talked about!

You mean we can now have a Kyon-Koizumi routine?

[whitecloud]

touma gain new ally....Kakine, very strong...but considering the enemy is the saint and like... is good to have additional firepower

[Kenju of the Right]

If Rikou can distort Personal Realities then I wonder if she created any effect on Shiage

Originally Posted by Master Assassin

You mean we can now have a Kyon-Koizumi routine?

This seems likely!

[Requiem-x]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

Yes! This means that there will be comedy segments that Kakine will have with Accelerator and ITEM
can you imagine it!?!?!

He's probably going to be the always smiling idiot type!

This is the limitless possibilities Kakine talked about!

I can already see one of those posibilities. Literally.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

There's more to it, but I think these pages get the point across. Also, THAT THIRD PAGE! This artist predicted the future!

[shmaster]

*reads up

I think I detracted a little from my original point myself.

Let me restate my central problem with Touma right now: He is too far into messiah syndrome that he is as appalling as Medaka.

I have no interest in arguing whether Touma or Birdway's philosophy is right or wrong, better or worse.

What I cannot stand is Touma acting as if he has the moral high ground when he is as flawed as Birdway, and even guilt trip her out of his desire for personal sanctification.

“You just had to choose me. That would have been enough for me to accept it.”

This is the line of all evil. Just when does Touma's acceptance over Birdway's methodology has anything to do with saving people? Why Touma has to be concerned at all when saving people is involved?
Either way, both Touma and Birdway's method will lead to casualty. Then how can Touma make Birdway guilty of what she did?

Is it because Touma is willing to try for a better solution when Birdway is just taking the easy way out?
Apparently that is not the case:

"To use your example, what you are doing is leaving the starving people to starve and simply watching as they collapse.”

“Perhaps. No…You’re probably right.”

Touma out right admitted he is just watching people starving to death. Touma is NOT trying.

In the end, Touma is equally as low as Birdway. Yet, he trashed talked her only because Birdway did not crucify him like he wanted, while trying to establish the false equation of "sacrificing Touma = saving more people", when there are going to be sacrifices no matter what.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Yes do you know why? Because she is NOT suppose to feel good about it! She is NOT suppose to have a clear conscience!

Just because he is wrong, doesn't mean she is right either.

Forgotten his original point on saving people? Where are you getting all of this from?

Accept a problem just because it was smaller than another problem?

If they had stop them at Hawaii and not let them jump into Europe they would have plenty of time. Hell the whole time from NT2 to NT5 was a period of several days and that was with allowing Gremlin to progress.

So Chaos, to answer your response. Yes. Neither are right, which means Touma should not have any moral high ground either.
This is not about which problem is smaller or bigger, but rather what to do in a lose lose situation.
And yes, I am certain he has lost his original point on saving people. He admitted himself for letting people starve to death, yet he blamed Birdway for not doing what he wanted. Despite his method will create casualty either. Thus the difference lies not in whether people are saved or not, but whether Touma felt good or not.
If Touma's simply accuse Birdway for sacrificing people, I wouldn't be this mad at him. Even though I don't believe he has the right to accuse her, saying Birdway sacrificed people is still stating the truth. But when does Touma's acceptance over the matter has to do with anything? Unless Touma's acceptance of the matter can magically resolve everything, it has nothing to do with saving people, and not something that should be used to make Birdway feel guilty.

And remember, it was not until the end of the Hawaii incident that Birdway was who are the core members of Gremlin. How can you expect her stop Gremlin from moving into Europe? She don't even know where was their hideout, how is she going to stop their movement if she doesn't even know where are they coming from?
So what if she utilize all her resource to stall Gremlin at Baggage City? Then who is there to bring help to Brunhild when she got outnumbered by the artificial Valkyries? And that won't be right for her either, as she is choosing a smaller problem (Brunhild getting killed), rather than a bigger problem (Baggage City getting burned).
Birdway is in a lose lose situation here, and this makes her the one to blame?

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Flames

So Kakine lost to the bettle because the bettle decided to become Kakine himself?. I don't understand how he lost to himself when the bettle even admits he is can never be anything but Kakine so how can he be any different from himself.

It's not that he decided to become Kakine, he was Kakine all along, a part of him anyway, the kind part as Accelerator said, being surprised. The beetle simply stopped rejecting himself and realized this. Then he could take over (though it's hinted that his independence was only possible thanks to Takitsubo)

That's what I understood anyway.

[Flames]

Where did the image kakine in the bettle come from and was he trying to help the bettle out?

[Twi]

Originally Posted by shmaster

*reads up

I think I detracted a little from my original point myself.

Let me restate my central problem with Touma right now: He is too far into messiah syndrome that he is as appalling as Medaka.

I have no interest in arguing whether Touma or Birdway's philosophy is right or wrong, better or worse.

What I cannot stand is Touma acting as if he has the moral high ground when he is as flawed as Birdway, and even guilt trip her out of his desire for personal sanctification.

“You just had to choose me. That would have been enough for me to accept it.”

This is the line of all evil. Just when does Touma's acceptance over Birdway's methodology has anything to do with saving people? Why Touma has to be concerned at all when saving people is involved?
Either way, both Touma and Birdway's method will lead to casualty. Then how can Touma make Birdway guilty of what she did?

Is it because Touma is willing to try for a better solution when Birdway is just taking the easy way out?
Apparently that is not the case:

"To use your example, what you are doing is leaving the starving people to starve and simply watching as they collapse.”

“Perhaps. No…You’re probably right.”

Touma out right admitted he is just watching people starving to death. Touma is NOT trying.

In the end, Touma is equally as low as Birdway. Yet, he trashed talked her only because Birdway did not crucify him like he wanted, while trying to establish the false equation of "sacrificing Touma = saving more people", when there are going to be sacrifices no matter what.




So Chaos, to answer your response. Yes. Neither are right, which means Touma should not have any moral high ground either.
This is not about which problem is smaller or bigger, but rather what to do in a lose lose situation.
And yes, I am certain he has lost his original point on saving people. He admitted himself for letting people starve to death, yet he blamed Birdway for not doing what he wanted. Despite his method will create casualty either. Thus the difference lies not in whether people are saved or not, but whether Touma felt good or not.
If Touma's simply accuse Birdway for sacrificing people, I wouldn't be this mad at him. Even though I don't believe he has the right to accuse her, saying Birdway sacrificed people is still stating the truth. But when does Touma's acceptance over the matter has to do with anything? Unless Touma's acceptance of the matter can magically resolve everything, it has nothing to do with saving people, and not something that should be used to make Birdway feel guilty.

And remember, it was not until the end of the Hawaii incident that Birdway was who are the core members of Gremlin. How can you expect her stop Gremlin from moving into Europe? She don't even know where was their hideout, how is she going to stop their movement if she doesn't even know where are they coming from?
So what if she utilize all her resource to stall Gremlin at Baggage City? Then who is there to bring help to Brunhild when she got outnumbered by the artificial Valkyries? And that won't be right for her either, as she is choosing a smaller problem (Brunhild getting killed), rather than a bigger problem (Baggage City getting burned).
Birdway is in a lose lose situation here, and this makes her the one to blame?

You've just noticed this?

Touma doesn't care if he's right or wrong/ good or evil. He's stated that he does what he thinks is right.

He's pushing what's his opinion on her as it would have been overall a lower causality plan to him. Remember, even though it seemed like both of them make good points, there are possibly a million unknown things both could have done differently.

When two people who have two ideologies clash they try to put the others down while putting theirs up. That hasn't changed. It's just that Touma is the protagonist and as such we often side with him. Stories like this are often designed as such.

He's selfish, but, in a way it makes him more human to be selfish because everyone can identify with him.

[dcdfvr]

Originally Posted by Flames

So Kakine lost to the bettle because the bettle decided to become Kakine himself?. I don't understand how he lost to himself when the bettle even admits he is can never be anything but Kakine so how can he be any different from himself.

basically the beetle decided that rather than running away from kakine and becoming something else. he will take over and become kakine as a whole instead of merely being a part, that way it can take the path it chooses rather than be forced to do things against it's own will.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Flames

Where did the image kakine in the bettle come from and was he trying to help the bettle out?

The conversation was in his mind, so you could say it was literally a mental image of how he saw the "original" Kakine.

As that, he would not have any intention at all, the whole thing would just be a dramatized internal dialogue, perhaps with a little schizophrenia for extra impact

[whitecloud]

@shmaster

I have read it several times, the so called "moral high ground" that touma talk about is to some level is justified, after all birdway did sacrifice a large number of people in her plan, by acting as a chess master, by not getting involved herself, not getting hurt as touma said "do not want to cut her own flesh" while touma run all over the place injuring himself in the process, even though in the end birdway may have save more than touma ever did.

about touma watching people starving to death, touma is only a person, there is so much that a person can do, he even admit he is dumb, and might not have tried hard enough.

about touma himself, i agree with you he have a bad case of messiah complex, and why is this happened even though we read through the novel not exactly been addressed properly, and it probably related to the missing memory, and the implication of this complex will be addressed soon enough...

[Kenju of the Right]

Oh snap Fremea did make 05 part of the Hamazura group, if he joins ITEM ......

[Flames]

Originally Posted by leukrota

The conversation was in his mind, so you could say it was literally a mental image of how he saw the "original" Kakine.

As that, he would not have any intention at all, the whole thing would just be a dramatized internal dialogue, perhaps with a little schizophrenia for extra impact

Then Kakine is nuts then. This whole thing with the bettle is just WTF to me. I'm thinking he was having a mental battle with the real Kakine who was just telling him to piss off but now it turns out to be some image the bettle made of himself. Which means he was telling himself to piss off?

[Chaos2Frozen]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally Posted by shmaster

What I cannot stand is Touma acting as if he has the moral high ground when he is as flawed as Birdway, and even guilt trip her out of his desire for personal sanctification.

Why are you so hung up about this point? After being tricked into causing a civil war on the Science side and seeing hundreds of people died first hand, you can bet that's the least he should do.

What? Birdway has a good reason for it so it's all forgiven? Nobody should judge her and hurt her feelings? Give me a break.

Originally Posted by shmaster

"To use your example, what you are doing is leaving the starving people to starve and simply watching as they collapse.”

“Perhaps. No…You’re probably right.”

Touma out right admitted he is just watching people starving to death. Touma is NOT trying.

That's twisting his words and you know it.

Not trying? Are you serious? So I guess that trip to Europe was actually a side vacation.

Originally Posted by shmaster

In the end, Touma is equally as low as Birdway. Yet, he trashed talked her only because Birdway did not crucify him like he wanted, while trying to establish the false equation of "sacrificing Touma = saving more people", when there are going to be sacrifices no matter what.

Seriously where is this coming from? All he pointed out was that there is something they could have done before causing massive deaths.

He was using himself as an EXAMPLE of such a method. Putting himself on the line, 'cutting his own flesh' if he has to.

Originally Posted by shmaster

If Touma's simply accuse Birdway for sacrificing people, I wouldn't be this mad at him. Even though I don't believe he has the right to accuse her, saying Birdway sacrificed people is still stating the truth. But when does Touma's acceptance over the matter has to do with anything? Unless Touma's acceptance of the matter can magically resolve everything, it has nothing to do with saving people, and not something that should be used to make Birdway feel guilty.

You're reading way too much into this acceptance thing.

Touma disagree with her way of doing things. Full stop. That's it.

Again with Birdway guilt... How about she actually talk to people instead of going behind everybody's backs and THEN say that nothing else could be done.

Sure, nothing could be done NOW when everything became all screwed up.

Originally Posted by shmaster

How can you expect her stop Gremlin from moving into Europe?

How about not letting the civil war happen? That's a damn good start if you ask me.

[Requiem-x]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

Oh snap Fremea did make 05 part of the Hamazura group, if he joins ITEM ......

They'll finally have a respectable male on their side again. Sorry, Slave, call us back when you have to protect Rikou's skin again.

Oh yeah, and guess they'll power up a little.

Originally Posted by Flames

Then Kakine is nuts then.

Turning your entire self into something that shouldn't even exist in the first place does that to a person.

Originally Posted by Flames

I'm thinking he was having a mental battle with the real Kakine who was just telling him to piss off but now it turns out to be some image the bettle made of himself. Which means he was telling himself to piss off?

It was more like his slave mentality trying to gain control back.

[Kenju of the Right]

Originally Posted by Requiem-x

They'll finally have a respectable male on their side again. Sorry, Slave, call us back when you have to protect Rikou's skin again.

Oh yeah, and guess they'll power up a little.

'A little' my ass

I wouldnt be suprised is there was another Etzali-like attempt to take out Shiage because his faction is getting too strong

[Requiem-x]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

'A little' my ass

I wouldnt be suprised is there was another Etzali-like attempt to take out Shiage because his faction is getting too strong

That was sarcasm, man. It would be a huge upgrade for Shiage's group, and there's also Rikou's potential, which no doubt has been noticed by the Kihara checking out on Kakine.

Here's a thought, what if Etzali is the one in charge of taking Shiage out for whatever reason?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Flames

Then Kakine is nuts then. This whole thing with the bettle is just WTF to me. I'm thinking he was having a mental battle with the real Kakine who was just telling him to piss off but now it turns out to be some image the bettle made of himself. Which means he was telling himself to piss off?

AIM Stalker's interference allowed this to happen. Essentially, Kakine got cut off from the greater Dark Matter system as the hierachy in it got reversed. He's not nuts

This would not have occured had Takitsubo not encountered the beetle earlier on

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Flames

Then Kakine is nuts then. This whole thing with the bettle is just WTF to me. I'm thinking he was having a mental battle with the real Kakine who was just telling him to piss off but now it turns out to be some image the bettle made of himself. Which means he was telling himself to piss off?

Well, yes, he is nuts. Golum nuts. Though his personality should be unified now, once again... I think.