2007-10-02, 08:56 | Link #241 | |
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I mean, both manga and anime made clear that rank isn't everything. In the manga we see Fate and Nanoha losing to lower ranked mages (Chrono and the headmaster), in the anime we get a lot of fights where the theoretical strongest loses (Fate, Signum, Vita, Reinforce) and StrikerS stresses that by introducing the strikers/aces categories, where strikers are not strong but are skilled and experienced and thus capable of winning over stronger foes. So... Why would Regius, or anyone, want a SS mage so bad? A highly trained special corp of A or even B mages would be much more efficient and flexible. That's the basic idea behind the numbers who, individually, are really weak one-trick ponies, but can be a threat with their skills, as a team. On the opposite, it seems to me that it is better for SS mages to become solo investigators on the outskirts of the empire, or to be concentrated in one elite squad (What RF6 should have been) to deal with space-time big threats, not to be used for police work. Teaming SS with A or B would slow down the SS and put the lower rank in danger, due to the difference in tactics involved. Mobility, attack or defense are just not compatible. You don't team a tank or a copter with a F14. Also, about Inherent Skills, aren't they just what each cyborg is skilled at doing with his inner cyborg energy? It's not as if it could not be replicated with linker core energy, which Subaru proves with Wing Road. AMFs are pretty remarkable in that they can block some magic energy emission but not all, speaking about that. Considering that, if there was any war brewing, or if I was in charge of building an elite unit, I would look into mages who can use magic under AMF conditions, and who are trained well enough not to be one trick ponies like the numbers. If the numbers could have used simple binds, transference magic, or ranged magic, while still specializing in whatever their IS is, they would have been deadly. Just drop a magic nullification field on the target with your team and the enemy mages are done for. |
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2007-10-02, 10:42 | Link #242 | |
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2007-10-02, 11:29 | Link #243 | |
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Anyway, I agree that IS are hardware based, the same way than a bullet fred from a gun is hardware based, but it doesn't mean that Caro (for example) cannot fire something as lethal with her magic. In the end, it's just a crippling specialisation when fighting mages under normal conditions, and the only way it can be useful is when an external AMF device robs the mage opponent of all his powers. I was thinking... If Wing Road is an IS, then an IS can be powered/emulated by conventional magic, so the reverse is most likely true, non-IS magic can be powered by "cyborg" energy and thus be usable under AMF conditions. Since cyborg energy is hardware based, a little R&D could yield a device/BJ add-on that creates that energy either from cartridges, from hardware or from converted linker core magic. You could have mages impervious to AMF. With even more R&D on AMFs, it seems to me the army could create a sort of selective scrambler, too. Since IS clearly still create magical stuff (if Wing Road isn't magic, what would it be? Real steel, glowing blue?), then it follows that AMFs only scramble one kind of magic, so by fine tuning it, you could surely make it so it disrupts cyborgs, or maybe even one style of magic and not the other. It has some serious tactical possibilities. |
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2007-10-02, 12:58 | Link #245 | ||||||
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The "balanced" squads never really made much sense because half of each squad had such superior mobility, firepower and protection than the other half. In fact, RF6 didn't have enough organic transport to transport the forward component of each squad at the same time separately anyways. It would have been possible to have the forwards operate together as one subunit and use at least four of the Aces as the other but then they so rarely trained like that. When they did train like that, the training wouldn't have been terribly useful to the Aces since the forwards were overmatched. Training isn't nearly as effective if you don't train the way you would fight. I'm almost certain I saw more cooperation between Nanoha and Fate in the original OP of Strikers than in the rest of the show all together. Quote:
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Developing a staff and training cadre will go extremely slowly if they are working alone need to train each officer until the TSAB officers have learned the necessary knowledge and skill to teach others. Acquiring multiple talented officers with similar doctrinal backgrounds would save a lot of time and make them all less likely to burn out. Quote:
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-10-02 at 20:13. |
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2007-10-02, 13:52 | Link #246 | ||
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Now, Legend of Galactic Heroes, that's a show with capable commanders instead of mere fighters! Quote:
Well, it's all speculation. But I'd say they need a George Washington, not a Julius Ceasar. Someone who knows when to let go. |
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2007-10-02, 14:00 | Link #247 |
~Night of Gales~
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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To be fair, I don't think the Air Force even participated in any battles of StrikerS. They were supposed to be red-suit wearing like the ones Vita and Signum wear when training with one another. I don't see a single one of those redshirts at all in StrikerS, while we're treated to armor wearing blue vests, which are of the Ground Force's Air unit, not the actual Supreme Air Force.
And comparing Legend of Galactic Heroes and Nanoha? Somehow, that thought scares me as much as I would to see LoGH's story-telling elements in all anime, much less just Nanoha.
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2007-10-02, 21:21 | Link #249 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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We've already established that the team structure of RF6 can't possibly be justified by any military standard whatsoever. And that a lot of the problems of the TSAB are the same ones confronted by the Japanese SDF, which is a military organization that is not really a military organization. It's possible that we're seeing subtle social commentary, but about ten squintillion times more likely that the writers never thought that deeply about it, and that the TSAB looks like the JSDF because that's what the writers are familiar with (that is to say, the fact that it is a defective military organization is reflective of the same defects in the Japanese military, and the writers don't know military issues well enough to have realized this.)
It does hurt the integrity of the story, because Nanoha is supposed to be good at her job, and she definitely works hard enough, and she's NOT actually a complete moron. She is familiar with Earth history to the point where she'd know that it has a relatively rich military tradition to draw from, she's dedicated to her job enough that she'd have done the homework behind that (if not while she was a fighter, then definitely as a trainer!) and the mistakes she makes in training are not ones she could possibly make if she were familiar with modern Earth militaries even to a small degree. In other words, it's not credible that she'd have this huge blind spot, but she does, and it's not something that the writers can reconcile. (Kind of like how nobody ever comments on whether Nanoha and Fate are sleeping together. Or like in Zone of the Enders, where you can get through a 26-episode TV series with mecha with giant phallus-shaped projections and nobody even cracks a smile or a joke. Okay, but we don't BELIEVE it...) The scary thing would be to wonder what would happen if Strikers HAD writers familiar with the military, and if Nanoha actually displayed the talents she gets credit for in that respect. Could be tough, because real militaries are not about drama; they are perfectly happy to ambush innocent and unsuspecting enemies at odds of ten to one and don't stop to think "aren't we overdoing this a bit?" Already Nanoha can punch through more or less any opposition solo - just how nasty would the enemy have to be, to give a tightly-knit squad of aces plus knights even a bit of challenge? |
2007-10-02, 22:12 | Link #250 | ||
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As a rule, they don't use the SDF rank system for anything they want to be even a semi-serious hypothetical military organization (the old WWII-era system is used). The moment I saw that Hayate was a Nitou Rikusa, I knew they were going for Social Commentary (which I don't mind) of the schizophrenic SDF. Then there are those "Career" exams that Hayate took (parodies of the Japanese "career" system, one effect of which is to raise elite (Tokyo) university Law Faculty grads into the rank of Police Assistant Inspector without them having a shred of experience in police work). Especially when the shop they went to for dinner looked ridiculously similar to a traditional Japanese diner - in fact Midchildra looks very much like anime Japan. Definitely Social Commentary here. Of course, what actually came up was so disastrous that the SDF should rightfully sue 7Arcs for libel. It also destroyed the Social Commentary effect, because what came out was too implausibly incompetent to be a proper parody - it went from "They must be indirectly talking about the SDF" to "They must be talking about a completely new, totally incompetent organization called the TSAB." Quote:
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2007-10-02, 22:25 | Link #251 | ||
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Edit: I forgot that they also managed to cripple Hayate physically as well again.
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Last edited by Mirificus; 2007-10-02 at 23:14. |
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2007-10-02, 22:41 | Link #252 | ||||||||||
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To be fair, maybe the promotion to 3rd Air Commander would come with the billet of Tactical Instructor or Command School Instructor. In which case, her refusal is a selfless thing - after all, she does seem to be reasonably effective as a Martial Skills Instructor. Best to stick to what you know. Quote:
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2007-10-03, 20:10 | Link #253 | |
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Doing that in the context of a competent military would be pretty tough. If they're full of people with Nanoha's abilities, then she's not special. If they're using her and Fate's and Hayate's potential to the fullest, then they're either steamrolling any possible opposition (which isn't fun after the first couple of times) or they're going up against something so GINORMOUS that the fans go "bullshit". Hell, even handled incompetently, Strikers had two fuggin' squads take out a super-magical relic battleship, and about a billion drones, while being 50% outnumbered by their opposition. And we're calling BS on that - part of the reason we're convinced that the TSAB is so incompetent is that they offered practically no help in Strikers. But sheeeee-it, what the hell would Nanoha and Fate and Hayate had to take on if they actually used their heads and got good backup and STILL had a rough time of it? Beggars the mind, really. I don't think that the writers were trying to make commentary about the SDF, though. I mean, come on. Why did Subaru join the military? Because she wanted to save people; even after getting combat experience, she went into a disaster rescue unit. That's pure JSDF thinking, man, not the kind of thing you'd do if you were making a point that putting combat veterans in your disaster relief units is actually pretty stupid. (Then again, Japan isn't exactly blessed with an overabundance of combat veterans.) The easiest explanation is still the best here. The writers wrote about the military they're familiar with; it turns out that is not, by our terms, a terribly good military. They obviously weren't interested in making that point specifically. Therefore, it makes sense to chalk it up to ignorance - the TSAB isn't a parody of the Japanese military, it's just a reflection, and the flaws we see in it are mirrors of flaws in the real thing, not exaggerated caricatures. (Hell, if anything the JSDF is even worse.) |
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2007-10-04, 21:16 | Link #254 | ||||||
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Her fight against Fate is actually a show of Technotactics, not blind leetness. She kept to where she was strong, covered her weaknesses, let her enemy exhaust herself, then brought up an unexpected reserve using the Technical Solution of Starlight Breaker recycling to win. Nanoha is always portrayed as good, very good, even one of the best. But this whole Nanoha is teh awesome thing started in StrikerS, and it was entirely due to a fossilization of tactics. Quote:
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And again, while the SDF has problems, it'd be quite implausible that it sucks as much as the TSAB is made out to be. It does work with the American military, after all. I bet even the Syrians are better than the TSAB (the 1973 Syrians anyway, maybe the TSAB is better than the 1967 Syrians)! |
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2007-10-05, 03:03 | Link #255 | |
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They remind me more of an UN security force with nukes. |
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2007-10-05, 03:40 | Link #256 |
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It is not really so bad that the organization itself sucks. There have been many shows of good guys fighting stupid bureaucracy. The problem is when the "good guys" join the bureaucracy.
True, one can argue this is a realistic and likely result, but as a show it generally is unacceptable, since we are supposed to sympathize with the protagonists. |
2007-10-05, 03:58 | Link #257 | ||
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What they really need is to get into a war with another power that actually uses tech AND magic together, if they survive a few crushing defeats they might finally be knocked out of their stupor and adapt as well as perhaps purge the morons that set them up for said defeats from the ranks. I'm acutally in the beginning stages of writing a fan fic something to that effect where in they come into conflict with a smaller, but more tactically and technically competent power and get a serious bloody nose and some lessons learned from it though still win more by sheer mass then any skill or tactics. Quote:
Last edited by Tk3997; 2007-10-05 at 04:14. |
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2007-10-05, 06:51 | Link #258 | ||
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BTW, real jet fighters don't fly at Mach 2 very often, and less often when they are trying to attack man sized targets a lot slower than they are. Quote:
I'd be waiting for it. Add lots of diagrams, too! |
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2007-10-05, 08:49 | Link #259 | |
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I have my own ideas for a force that could defeat the TSAB too. The key were two things, first was a method of artificially generating magic energy and using that energy to cast spells. That lets anyone be a mage, even without a linker core. The second was multiple factions on a world, all equally capable and equally distrusting of each other. This makes it impossible for any faction to phase out conventional weapons while phasing in magical ones. In the process, they will find the most potent combination of both. Something the TSAB failed to do. Last edited by Jimmy C; 2007-10-05 at 12:13. |
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