[Manga] Naruto Chapter 549 Discussion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

well up till now I was 99.9% sure that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Bee in their fight and Hachibi snapped Bee out of it ..

Tsukiyomi is instantaneous, that is it's main power, when Kurenai and Asuma tried to help Kakashi they couldn't, because Kakashi immediately collapsed. It was also explained by Kakashi when Chiyo talks about how to beat genjutsu easily. If Bee is mentally attacked then Hachibi can't help him if it is a Tsukiyomi, because he has no time. This is for me the proof that Sasuke didn't use Tsukiyomi. And also the reason why Naruto becoming friends with Kyuubi would be useless against Tsukiyomi. Hachibi could have helped Bee if they were mentally linked, but we see that they are not because both the Kyuubi and Hachibi are separate entities inside Bee and Naruto, it's only when they lose control over their body that the demons take over mentally, but in normal state the demon is behind bars. Also if they were linked mentally it would probably result in both being hit by Tsukiyomi.

[Kallen4life]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of Bee's friendliness with Hachibi is that the bijuu can interact with him freely at any time and snap him out of genjutsu, even Tsukuyomi .. doubt both would get hit by it, only Bee



P.S. ok, reread Bee vs Sasuke, it's pretty clear :
- Bee is charging Sasuke from the air, Sasuke activates MS in his right eye and uses a genjutsu on Bee, the latter crashes to the ground being unable to move his body (the word Tsukuyomi is not spoken, but MS is seen, the inverted scheme as well + Sasuke is cluthing his right eye afterwards and panting like after MS usage .. pretty obvious to me this is Tsukuyomi .. I doubt the existence of any MS-but-not-Tsukuyomi genjutsus, we have never seen them, it's just regular sharingan genjutsu and then Tsukuyomi), Sasuke seems to expect him to stay down, BUT Bee tackles him right afterwards
the point here I think is that Sasuke expected Tsukuyomi to remain active after breaking actual eye contact with Bee (because if it breaks on it's own there's no reason for Bee not to get back up himself, having endured it .. no need for Hachibi then), and it would have (possibly for a set time or until Sasuke stops it), except Hachibi broke it, because it only affected Bee and not Hachibi .. the difference with Itachi's I assume is that Bee only experienced like a few seconds of 'mind-rape' (which caused him to crash) during the eye contact in real-time, whereas with Itachi it would have been ~72 hours - not sure how that corresponds with Hachibi breaking the illusion - would it still be only a few seconds for Bee or the whole 72 hours ?

[Marsala]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

I see no reason why Sasuke can't or shouldn't use Tsukuyomi, even if it is inferior to Itachi's .. it's still one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence and is pretty damn handy in a fight against a target with no genjutsu-defence

That's exactly why Sasuke doesn't have Tsukiyomi - it's too powerful. Kishimoto would have to invent reasons for Sasuke to not use it in all of his fights or give everyone he fought a way to beat it, or else all of Sasuke's fights would end the instant he made eye contact.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No, to be able to access Susanoo you need to master the MS in both your eyes, which in Sasuke's case has been with Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi. Sasuke has never once mentioned the name of Tsukuyomi and his various usage of Genjutsu never had control over space and time which the defining aspect of Tsukuyomi.
The only single thing over which you can build the assumption that Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi is the inverted color theme that was used once during his fight against Killer Bee.

Thank you for confirming this. At first I never thought Sasuke's genjutsu was tsukuyomi for the exact same reasons, and even when Danzo compared Sasuke's jutsu to Itachi's he vaguely referred to Sasuke's ability as a genjutsu while he clearly compared it to Itachi's tsukuyomi. But everyone kept saying it was tsukuyomi, and I think even the Naruto wikia stated something like that, and also that you need Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi attain Susanoo. I gradually accepted it only because it made more sense from a mythological standpoint.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

wth is that ?

IIRC it's Sasuke's unique ability to freely manipulate amaterasu's flames.

[Kallen4life]

well like I mentioned earlier it seems pretty definite to me that he used it vs Bee .. and then forgot about it vs the Kages (i don't think Raikage is much of a genjutsu specialist ^^) .. Danzou has a sharingan of his own (we've seen Sasuke beat Itachi's Tsukuyomi with a regular sharingan, though that whole fight was fixed and Itachi's goal was Orochimaru anyway, so maybe Itachi held Tsukuyomi long enough to wear out Sasuke somewhat and then dropped it, because Sasuke (who is worse at genjutsu) beating Itachi's MS with a regular sharingan is somewhat a stretch) + the izanagi .. and Naruto should get some kind of anti-genjutsu, maybe from the crow


seems to me Kishi doesn't even need a reason for Sasuke not to use Tsukuyomi ^^ .. maybe Sasuke just knows he's not so hot with genjutsu and sticks to ninjutsu

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

well like I mentioned earlier it seems pretty definite to me that he used it vs Bee .. and then forgot about it vs the Kages (i don't think Raikage is much of a genjutsu specialist ^^) .. Danzou has a sharingan of his own (we've seen Sasuke beat Itachi's Tsukuyomi with a regular sharingan, though that whole fight was fixed and Itachi's goal was Orochimaru anyway, so maybe Itachi held Tsukuyomi long enough to wear out Sasuke somewhat and then dropped it, because Sasuke (who is worse at genjutsu) beating Itachi's MS with a regular sharingan is somewhat a stretch) + the izanagi .. and Naruto should get some kind of anti-genjutsu, maybe from the crow

Kakashi even has MS but still fell for tsukuyomi, so I think Itachi was telling the truth about having to be an Uchiha with sharingan to resist tsukuyomi. In Sasuke vs Itachi, Sasuke didn't break tsukuyomi until he went CS2, so the surge of chakra must have given a boost to his sharingan as well.

You make a good point about the fight vs Bee and I think Kishi has been intentionally vague about Sasuke's genjutsu, with kagutsuchi as a back-up, until he decides what to do with it. I think he also used MS while casting the first genjutsu on Danzo as well (can't remember tbh). It could be tsukuyomi, or he could be using MS just to power up his regular genjutsu.

[Kallen4life]

I also think it's possible to cast regular sharingan genjutsu even if you have MS activated in both eyes .. it does not automatically limit you to Tsukuyomi only

but yeah - vagueness

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

I think the inverted color scheme IS the ONLY thing required to define Tsukuyomi (other then it's name spoken), the time manipulation is just something extra Itachi achieved, because he's so damn good @ genjutsu .. although I personally think Madara can do it too

The time manipulation is the single feature that defines Tsukuyomi. Its instantaneousness is the reason it cannot be dispelled even if you have a partner, if you remove that then it's just a Genjutsu like any others. It would be like saying Sasuke could use Amaterasu way back during part 1, just a weaker Amaterasu that wasn't inextinguishable and didn't burn for 7 days and nights.

wth is that ?

hmm eh, I kinda assumed it's just Amaterasu manipulation, which Itachi couldn't do (as far as we know), because Sasuke is more proficient with ninjutsu and Itachi with genjutsu .. and NOT like a 2-nd separate MS technique in place of Tsukuyomi

if it is indeed the 2-nd - sucks for Sasuke, he lost a powerful genjutsu for this, Susanoo shields him anyway (and much better .. Raikage still went through the flame shield), although taking up more chakra

The ability to manipulate the shape of chakra is the single most powerful Ninjutsu ability in the story. That's the difference between a gust of wind and the FRS or the difference between a pound of clay and an atomic explosion. Being able to apply Shape Manipulation to those flame means the potential to an entire new branch of Elemental Ninjutsu, it's similar to a Kekkei Genkai by itself.

I doubt the existence of any MS-but-not-Tsukuyomi genjutsus, we have never seen them

We have seen several actually, Itachi used one on Sasuke the day of the massacre to knock him out after he used Tsukuyomi, he used one during their final battle just before he used Tsukuyomi and Sasuke has used a few small-time Genjutsu with his MS to cast low grade illusion and force a Cloud nin to tell the truth.
The Genjutsu Sasuke used on Bee was a Binding Genjutsu, an illusion meant to last for a given period of time to paralyze its target. Tsukuyomi on the other hand is an illusion with to time period. It works virtually instantaneously and create a mental breakdown. That's the reason Naruto warned Bee about it this chapter even after the Hachibi got him out of a regular Genjutsu.

Originally Posted by Casshern

Thank you for confirming this.

Note that at the end of the day there is no definitive answer about this yet. Until the 4th Databook comes out that is.

[Kallen4life]

ok, maybe we'll see for sure once Sasuke fights again and uses genjutsu


anyway, his new shiny EMS probably powered-up all of his abilities considerably - those are Itachi's eyes, maybe all of Itachi's abilities are in them + a new EMS 4-th one

[HasuMasu]

So after all that, Sasuke turns out to be Joe Schmoe Genjutsu user?

Figures, on the other hand, what the hell did Madara use on Konan?

[Aqua Knight]

Nice chapter, but still no Sasuke around and that's disappointing. There's now only righteous Naruto will Jesus-like attitude and no " I will kill them all and have my revenge' line.

[Kallen4life]

I really liked Sasuke after he fell off the deep end and went the 'kill-em-all' route .. nice & simple .. before that I hated him =/

[mrShady]

No really Sasuke should really jump in and bore us with his emo angst gone psycho and wants to destroy the village in order for his clan name to be cleansed attitude....
Yeah we really need that.

I want a more coherent story with less ass pull and realistic (as in like previous war) war depiction.
None of the konoha 11 got killed or even wounded.... come on that's just lame..

[Aqua Knight]

I think Kishimoto is just busy drawing Sasuke's new Sharingan pattern + new outfit + new hairstyle etc. He said himself that drawing Sasuke was like his most pleasant job, and considering how many outfits Sasuke had compared to Naruto that can really be true. He wants to perfect him before he goes out of shadows to kick asses

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Da_Box

So after all that, Sasuke turns out to be Joe Schmoe Genjutsu user?

Sasuke is one of the best Genjutsu user in the show even though it's not his forte, he's good enough to one shot C who is a Genjutsu user Jounin. It just so happen that as the "Genjutsu god" of the series Itachi is simply considerably better at it.

Originally Posted by mrShady

I want a more coherent story with less ass pull and realistic (as in like previous war) war depiction.

Heh.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by mrShady

I want a more coherent story with less ass pull and realistic (as in like previous war) war depiction.
None of the konoha 11 got killed or even wounded.... come on that's just lame..

Eh, I can forgive the war depiction because, unlike the third war, the war the series is dealing with here isn't an ordinary war. It doesn't have Genin and Chunin charging like the cannon fodder they are (well it does, but only on one side) and it doesn't have trench warfare, it has an army of clones and a collection of puppet zombies. You could ask for realistic war depiction I guess, but the conditions just don't really suit it.

That said, yeah, the lack of allied casualties (minus the random comment of having lost something like 50% of their forces) is somewhat disappointing, but killing characters off just 'cause would have been too. I could have gotten behind the idea of Choji or Shikamaru giving their life to seal Asuma though, out of place as it would have been.

Meh, I didn't really feel that bothered by it. We've come this far with no casualties, so whatever.

[mrShady]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Heh.

?

Originally Posted by Akashin

Eh, I can forgive the war depiction because, unlike the third war, the war the series is dealing with here isn't an ordinary war. It doesn't have Genin and Chunin charging like the cannon fodder they are (well it does, but only on one side) and it doesn't have trench warfare, it has an army of clones and a collection of puppet zombies. You could ask for realistic war depiction I guess, but the conditions just don't really suit it.

That said, yeah, the lack of allied casualties (minus the random comment of having lost something like 50% of their forces) is somewhat disappointing, but killing characters off just 'cause would have been too. I could have gotten behind the idea of Choji or Shikamaru giving their life to seal Asuma though, out of place as it would have been.

Meh, I didn't really feel that bothered by it. We've come this far with no casualties, so whatever.

My main issue is the lack of named characters death and the complete lack of any form of tactics. They just all go head to head for an entire day and afterwards we learn that half the army is gone.... It's more like a massacre then a war.

There was so much potential wasted.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by mrShady

My main issue is the lack of named characters death and the complete lack of any form of tactics. They just all go head to head for an entire day and afterwards we learn that half the army is gone.... It's more like a massacre then a war.

There was so much potential wasted.

I agree completely on the lack of tactics; I assumed you meant the lack of conventional warfare, which probably wouldn't have worked well in a war such as this anyway. That said, going in depth with the tactics would have made the entire arc take far more time than it did, and while I wouldn't have minded too much I think Kishimoto did.

At any rate, we barely saw the surface of all the individual little fights going on across the battlefield. Maybe we can feel free to imagine the small time tactics taking place on that level?

Anyway, yeah, the lack of actually relevant character deaths is somewhat annoying. With a casualty rate of 50%, you'd think a few of them would be relevant characters. Ehh.

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Actually I suggested exactly the opposite.

My Apologies. I think it was Ero-Senn1n then. I got it confused. I was reading that thread recently and I recall agreeing with the logic until more recent threads seem to have to a consensus.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I could see the crow perhaps being something like this, though I have a lot of trouble swallowing that Itachi could have shown this level of foresight (and his surprise at learning that Madara twisted Sasuke implies he didn't fully anticipate it). That said, I agree that removing Sasuke's MS removes any and all challenge from their fight. Not that Sasuke could really stand up to Naruto with anything but Genjutsu at this point anyway...

But Itachi gave the crow to Naruto. So he must have some level of foresight that this would happen (and Sasuke would probably ask where he got the crow).