Fate/stay night Episode 4 Discussion thread

[enemychaser]

Originally Posted by Village Idiot

That's Ilya for you.

She's the most mature character, most ruthless, as well as the most childish character in Fate/stay night.

Guess Ilya would need to see a psychologist, she seems to have an adverse case of split personality. That or the designers have really crafted one really interesting (and kind of crazy) blend of personalities. Guess we'll have to watch on to see how it works out.

[ayyo]

Nah, the designers are just using one of the more interesting anime archtype.

Similar to what Sushi-y said above. A female child (at least in appearance) that has the innocence of one but is far beyond her age in a few ways.

If you need working examples, some of the more recent one that come to mind are Hazuki of Moon Phase and Evangeline A.K. McDowell of Negima.

Edit: Nextly said V

[stormy001_M1A2]

Ilya is actually a very conniving personality. She wants to play the war the way she wants to, and Shirou's action more and less negates her ideal scenario. Not just she wants to kill them, she wants to kill them in most off hand manner, without drama or human gestures that irritates her.

You can say a display of human capacity did throw her off and she did not like it, since it will ruin the fun of the game for her. As someone mentioned, she is most knowledgable and ruthless amongst magis in the setting. But off course, you can also say that Shirou is more and less have some influence on her in a way.

She did have reason to be so, and it will be shown later in relation to both ideas I just spoke about.

[Guido]

Thoughts for Episode 4.

I pretty got half-right my speculations for Ilya at the end of the previous episode.

Spoiler:

Ilya, in fact, was waiting for Rin. She's the type to go after the strong one in order to amuse herself, more true given the nature of 'Bersekers' who destroy everything in its path or desire to satisfy their bloodlust by challenging formidable foes like themselves.

I guess Shirou was just the appetitizer....

Ilya seems to have much spoiled herself with her quite potent magic capacities. She's a quite balance of innocence touched with mischief and tinged with faint lust for mayhem. Finally, adding a bit of noble snobbishness to the mixture.

The animators made a remarkable job emphasizing and drawing her facial features, her ruby eyes and snowy-white hair.

The most appealing pose of hers is when she bows her head and curtseys- bending her knees and lowering her body.

But I'm not quite satisfied for having reveal the Servant 'Berseker' real identity on his very first introduction. It doesn't give the viewers, who aren't familiar with the game at all, more time to investigate.

And Berseker himself IMO possess decent speed to follow Saber's every moment on par, as well resistance to magic.

Changing the topic, Ilya would have either felt insulted or dissatisfied that Shirou did such reckless and absurd feat.

Spoiler:

Risking the life for his servant.

1. Ilya wanted to finished the showdown expecting another burst of bloody action, but Shirou stepped in and ruined her fun.

2. Shirou does not takes too seriously Ilya's capacities as Master or even cares whether she's magician or not. He steps to protect Saber in total disregard for what either her or her servant are capable to pull out, therefore, offending her.

And several doubts make a fog on my head.

Spoiler:

1. If Shirou had died, then how's possible that Saber will dissappear?
Kotomine clearly explained that Servants won't instantly vanish if their current Masters die.
Unless that due to Shirou's low level of magic, Saber would not have had the enough Mana to sustain herself, henceforth, fading if Shirou had passed away.

2. I must assume that the family that was killed in episode one was due to a Servant's doing to obtain Mana. Either that or they were witnesses that had to be silenced or were potential threats to anyone of the other five Masters.

I'm also worrisome about Sakura's remark for the scent that she perceived on Tohsaka. She could also be a potential player in all of this, but this is personal speculation on my behalf.

Of all what it is accounted for, I'm glad that Saber is a hero(ine) who lives to her oath. A knight of honor and pride which ironically best suits Shirou, since he's willing to fight if it is for justice sake.

One of the many ideals of the Knight's oath was the justice.

[Village Idiot]

Originally Posted by Guido

Spoiler:

1. If Shirou had died, then how's possible that Saber will dissappear?
Kotomine clearly explained that Servants won't instantly vanish if their current Masters die.
Unless that due to Shirou's low level of magic, Saber would not have had the enough Mana to sustain herself, henceforth, fading if Shirou had passed away.

If Contract with their Master has been severed, a Servant normally has 2 hours to forge a new Contract with a Master, or disappear.

This time limit can be extended to the point of not requiring a Master, if a Servant possesses the "Free Movement" ability. The amount of time extended depends on the rank of "Free Movement".

[NewGuyinTown]

There are a few questions in my mind about this episode and the last one...

1. Saber made a pledge that she will not attack the unarmed... Does that mean she won't hurt other Masters or only civilians? It looks like she hesitated in killing Ilya. In Ep03, she approached Rin with an intent to kill her and was about to refuse Emiya's order.
2. Did Rin used one of her Reiju in Ep03 when recalling Archer from the battle? It looks like a seal disappeared when she recalled Archer.

[Village Idiot]

Originally Posted by NewGuyinTown

There are a few questions in my mind about this episode and the last one...

1. Saber made a pledge that she will not attack the unarmed... Does that mean she won't hurt other Masters or only civilians? It looks like she hesitated in killing Beserker's Master. In Ep03, she approached Rin with an intent to kill her.
2. Did Rin used one of her Reiju in Ep03 when recalling Archer from the battle? It looks like a seal disappeared when she recalled Archer.

1) Saber will not attack anyone that is not involved in the Grail War. Saber'll attack Servants and their Master's, but if a Master gives up, she'll let them go.

2) Yes, Rin used one of her Command Seals when dematerializing Archer in Ep3. Rin is actually down to just one Seal, but for some reason, the anime skipped over Rin using her first Seal.

[F!reStr!fe]

Originally Posted by NewGuyinTown

There are a few questions in my mind about this episode and the last one...

1. Saber made a pledge that she will not attack the unarmed... Does that mean she won't hurt other Masters or only civilians? It looks like she hesitated in killing Ilya. In Ep03, she approached Rin with an intent to kill her and was about to refuse Emiya's order.
2. Did Rin used one of her Reiju in Ep03 when recalling Archer from the battle? It looks like a seal disappeared when she recalled Archer.

1. Yea well an unarmed uninvolved civilian who does not have a clue whats going on is what she probably meant. A master is not a unarmed civilian because they usually have magic.. and they have their servants... Also they are free game since they are involved in the war. Kind of like a King who is unarmed, you cannot kill the civilians but a king who doesnt have a weapon is fair game still, because if you severe the head you kill the body in a war.

2. Yea she used one of her seals when she told him to disappear.

As for the episode i watched it and was not bad at all with the CG to anime conversions of some of the scenes. And that Saber so cute with her "hunger is our enemy" talk..

[DragoonKain3]

See, my point of view is from someone who has absolutely no experience with the game, and has read absolute zero spoilers about it. How would I know that Ilya is someone who is 'mature beyond her years, yet is still childlike in which she plays with her prey'? We saw her for but a few seconds in a previous episdoe, and in this eps we're given 'hello big brother, I'm here to kill you' and then moments later 'I'm sparing you for now'. Truly WTF material, given that it happened so fast and no hard reason was given. Was it so much to ask to hear or see the reason as to why she spared them? Even a single word saying that she got 'bored' (was it 'Sumanai'?) would have sufficed.

While in the game everyone might be fleshed out, but the anime has serious problems giving motivation to their characters. And they didn't do a very good job as well, because with the abysmal amount of clues makes the show come off more as 'What the heck just happened here?' instead of 'Wonder why that character did that?', like a good mystery show/novel would do.

Of course, the show sometimes gets motivation it right. For example, Rin and Sakura's meeting. Here we see Sakura frowning a bit, but why? Well, we all know she cooks breakfast for Shirou everyday, which means her seeing Rin this early morning is an anomaly, and seeing her coming from the direction of Shirou's house makes it even more suspicious. And this is important to Sakura because of her infatuation with Shirou, since I think, even in Japan, if a girl comes over to cook breakfast for a guy every single day including weekends for no particular good reason (at least, none was given in the anime), it means she's interested in him. That said, they still get motivation wrong way more than right, since they're really stingy with clues.

But then again, do they seriously need to give hints? I'm willling to bet 95% of people in Japan who watch FSN anime has already played the game, considering FSN's popularity with the otaku world, and so they would already know the characters inside out. But for Japanese-illiterate people like me, it comes off half done. Game might be great, but without prior knowledge, the anime so far, pardon my french, just sucks.

[Shiroth]

Once again, a perfect from Shiro.

Shirou & Saber talk = One of my cutest moments in Anime, amazingly put together.. i can see Saber falling for him~ ^.^

And come on - "Empty stomachs are our enemies. Let us eat, Shirou." - that's just one hell of a perfect quote.. and even more of what came after that. ^^

I'm loving the F/SN anime even more now, and i know i'll feel the same way after seeing Part 1 nexted week. ^^

[Chichi]

Originally Posted by Angelsama

Once again, a perfect from Shiro.

Shirou & Saber talk = One of my cutest moments in Anime, amazingly put together.. i can see Saber falling for him~ ^.^

And come on - "Empty stomachs are our enemies. Let us eat, Shirou." - that's just one hell of a perfect quote.. and even more of what came after that. ^^

I'm loving the F/SN anime even more now, and i know i'll feel the same way after seeing Part 1 nexted week. ^^

Ah ha, yes, indeed. Saber has what I can only describe as motherly concern for the most dearest of matters, such an empty stomach, while distinctive physical cuteness complements her almost vacant seriousness when she replies. She may appear generic in truth, but I’m fascinated with her character anyway.

[ctrl-z]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

See, my point of view is from someone who has absolutely no experience with the game, and has read absolute zero spoilers about it. How would I know that Ilya is someone who is 'mature beyond her years, yet is still childlike in which she plays with her prey'? We saw her for but a few seconds in a previous episdoe, and in this eps we're given 'hello big brother, I'm here to kill you' and then moments later 'I'm sparing you for now'. Truly WTF material, given that it happened so fast and no hard reason was given. Was it so much to ask to hear or see the reason as to why she spared them? Even a single word saying that she got 'bored' (was it 'Sumanai'?) would have sufficed.

Hmm... I can understand your perspective about the ambiguity of Ilya's sudden decision to pull back from the battle, but at the same time, it's this contradictory behaviour that allows a viewer who has no game experience to speculate on her personality and character.

As others have pointed out, Ilya sits in the "mature beyond her appearance and age, yet naive and innocent in some ways" archetype. Without knowing this a priori, we should look at her brief exposure in this episode to see what kind of speculation might lend support to this. Her switch from a cheerful yet murderous attitude at the start of the Saber/Berserker fight, to one of shock and confusion (quickly covered by her decision to leave) when Shirou takes one for the team, combined with her politeness and constant smiles certainly makes her an enigma at this point. Although this a "war" for the Holy Grail, there is certainly enough evidence to show that, since not all Masters and Servants have the same values and ambitions, there are some cold-blooded killers and conversely some honourable combatants. Who knows what category Ilya falls into? Particularly with the hints that she has knowledge (e.g., knowing that Shirou was going to be a Master when she passed by him in their first meeting) and magical power (e.g., ability to summon Heracles/Berserker) that others don't, it wouldn't be a stretch to consider that Ilya's motives are not as straightforward as what she may say.

Think about it from Shirou's point of view. He doesn't know anything about Ilya, either, so he'll be speculating just the same, and possibly be just as curious as to why he's still around.

[Xellos-_^]

Finally got around to watching the raw. Noting much to add tot he discussion since almost everything that needs to be said has been said. But i do want to make one points.

Someone give this girl a boxcutter:



Seriously anyone else feeling heavy Kaede vibes here.

Sakura: I smell blood

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Darkhorse

but I’m fascinated with her character anyway.

*nods* I agree. A brilliant look on life, very noble & full of pride.. and so god damn cute! >.<

Originally Posted by Xellos

Seriously anyone else feeling heavy Kaede vibes here.

Sakura: I smell blood

Hehe, i didn't think of Kaede untill you just said that.. & thinking about it.. Sakura looks the type that would go mental like Kaede did. ^^

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

See, my point of view is from someone who has absolutely no experience with the game, and has read absolute zero spoilers about it. How would I know that Ilya is someone who is 'mature beyond her years, yet is still childlike in which she plays with her prey'? We saw her for but a few seconds in a previous episdoe, and in this eps we're given 'hello big brother, I'm here to kill you' and then moments later 'I'm sparing you for now'. Truly WTF material, given that it happened so fast and no hard reason was given. Was it so much to ask to hear or see the reason as to why she spared them? Even a single word saying that she got 'bored' (was it 'Sumanai'?) would have sufficed.

Makes me wonder which version you watched. Both english releases out so far translated it properly - she INDEED said that she was bored.

While in the game everyone might be fleshed out, but the anime has serious problems giving motivation to their characters. And they didn't do a very good job as well, because with the abysmal amount of clues makes the show come off more as 'What the heck just happened here?' instead of 'Wonder why that character did that?', like a good mystery show/novel would do.

Why don't you do it like me? You register these anomalies and wait till they're explained. Just because you don't understand a motivation behind an action right now doesn't mean that there is none.

Of course, the show sometimes gets motivation it right. For example, Rin and Sakura's meeting. Here we see Sakura frowning a bit, but why? Well, we all know she cooks breakfast for Shirou everyday, which means her seeing Rin this early morning is an anomaly, and seeing her coming from the direction of Shirou's house makes it even more suspicious. And this is important to Sakura because of her infatuation with Shirou, since I think, even in Japan, if a girl comes over to cook breakfast for a guy every single day including weekends for no particular good reason (at least, none was given in the anime), it means she's interested in him. That said, they still get motivation wrong way more than right, since they're really stingy with clues.

I see no problem with that. You picked up correctly that there's more to Sakura-Rin than meets the eye (I don't know the game, but I do know that there's a connection). Register it as a clue - and don't complain that you get the full explanation already. If they'd do that, where's the mystery?

Patience, young Skywalker!

[Sushi-Y]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Was it so much to ask to hear or see the reason as to why she spared them? Even a single word saying that she got 'bored' (was it 'Sumanai'?) would have sufficed.

? But she did say that, both in the anime, and the game.


And ctrl-z is right, you're supposed to feel "WTF" when you first see something like this. Even game players who first saw this scene in the game probably expected Shirou to be dead and headed for a bad end (game over). But everything will be cleared up in due time. Like I said earlier, Ilya may seem like an illogical character in the beginning, but that's just the image that she gives off at first, you just have to get to know her to understand why she acts the way she does. Until then, think of it as a mystery, rather than "anime not making any sense".

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

See, my point of view is from someone who has absolutely no experience with the game, and has read absolute zero spoilers about it. How would I know that Ilya is someone who is 'mature beyond her years, yet is still childlike in which she plays with her prey'? We saw her for but a few seconds in a previous episdoe, and in this eps we're given 'hello big brother, I'm here to kill you' and then moments later 'I'm sparing you for now'. Truly WTF material, given that it happened so fast and no hard reason was given. Was it so much to ask to hear or see the reason as to why she spared them? Even a single word saying that she got 'bored' (was it 'Sumanai'?) would have sufficed.

[snip]

We don't know. We wait and find out later -- hopefully. If we don't get an idea of what a character's motivation was for a notable action, if it was completely arbitrary and out of character, then it's a problem. If we find out later, then that's fine. Well done, bravo, etc.

The problem is we are judging each episode in isolation -- as a work in itself, a little movie -- when it is just another piece of a much larger arc. Think of it as a novel. If something happens in an early chapter, and you don't know why, you expect to find out why in a subsequent chapter. The book is not flawed because the event or character motivation wasn't immediately apparent. As far as I can tell, this anime is very much structured like a novel, and its producers are assuming we have reasonably long attention spans.

I suspect the game players know this (the game, after all, is frequently referred to as a visual novel), and they become frustrated when the anime is criticized for leaving stuff temporarily (hopefully) open-ended. So they explain the characters motivation. When they do this, they providing us with spoilers. I don't blame them. At this point, the game and the anime are probably very intertwined in their heads, and motivations just don't seem as spoilerish as events.

If the show's producers are doing what I think they're doing, then I think they should be applauded for not dumbing down the game. I have not voted in any of these polls despite my fondness for polls in general. I just don't think I can really judge this particular anime on a per episode basis. I might change my mind if I see a spectacular, a spectacularly bad, or a stand-alone episode. We've seen nothing even remotely "stand-alone-ish" yet. I believe this is a complex work, and it requires some patience.

[Prodigious]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Finally got around to watching the raw. Noting much to add tot he discussion since almost everything that needs to be said has been said. But i do want to make one points.

Someone give this girl a boxcutter:



Seriously anyone else feeling heavy Kaede vibes here.

Sakura: I smell blood

Dude, whenever I see Sakura, I think Kaede. I mean they are both insanely subserviant toward the respective main characters, as well as having that super nice girl blank stare. And maybe it's just me, but their voices sound very similar(same voice actress maybe?).

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

? But she did say that, both in the anime, and the game.


And ctrl-z is right, you're supposed to feel "WTF" when you first see something like this. Even game players who first saw this scene in the game probably expected Shirou to be dead and headed for a bad end (game over). But everything will be cleared up in due time. Like I said earlier, Ilya may seem like an illogical character in the beginning, but that's just the image that she gives off at first, you just have to get to know her to understand why she acts the way she does. Until then, think of it as a mystery, rather than "anime not making any sense".

Well, I think we said pretty much the same thing at the same time. You just said it better -- and with graphics to boot!

[Cyz]

Berserker reminds me of the Incredible Hulk in many ways -> The small and the Giant duo