2012-07-01, 00:34 | Link #321 | ||||
The True Culprit
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Just because she can't have a happy ending doesn't mean she can't have the ending she herself chooses. She's not set on a railroad to only one possible outcome. Your harping on their circumstances isn't relevant because both of them have free will, and they still take the same general methods to handling their situations. If Madoka was in Kazumi's shoes and vice versa, I imagine they'd of made the same choices (and by "same shoes" I mean if Madoka was the witch in human form and Kazumi was the Ultra-God Candidate, since you seem to have utterly ignored this). Quote:
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To say that Kazumi and Michiru are completely separate, and can't be compared to the variant Madokas, is blatantly false. She's not a perfect clone, but you're going too far in the other direction. Quote:
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2012-07-01, 04:31 | Link #322 | |
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That being said, I would agree that both Madoka and Kazumi would have made the same choices, had their positions been switched. Obviously, the details would likely have differed - as a superficial example, Madoka would definitely be crying more often than Kazumi, but both would have likely came to similar conclusions as to the actions to undertake. Then again, the Scenarios are indeed distinctly different. The interesting thing is that most of the grim-darkness in Madoka Magica comes from discovering how screwed up the entire Puella Magi system is. In Kazumi Magica, most readers would have certainly already known of all the "Vanilla" horrors of the Puella Magi system (Soul Extraction, the Witch Cycle, etc), and indeed, the Pleiades Saints themselves are likely aware of most of the horrific details that say, Homura knew concerning the Puella Magi system. What Kazumi Magica does is take it one step further, and show just how much more darker the Madoka Magica world really could be, if we were to pursue some of the features of that system to it's logical conclusion. The grimness in Kazumi Magica is NOT about the system itself, but how much more messed up the system could be made. From the mass incarceration of Puella Magis, to Grief Seed Manipulation, to body sharing, how some wishes can backfire even more, to what happens if Homura Akemi was an entire team of Puella Magis instead. The heart of the series is to take some of that darker aspects of the Puella Magi world which we do not see in Madoka Magica, which Kyouko hinted at in the anime, and present it in a story. That is my take on it, and that's why I think that this is even Darker than Madoka Magica itself, since it goes beyond merely Vanilla Witching out, and into fates arguably even worse than becoming a Witch. If Madoka Magica is about Fates Worse than death, Kazumi Magica is about Fates even worse than those Fates. |
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2012-07-01, 14:42 | Link #323 | |||
The True Culprit
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2012-07-03, 17:44 | Link #324 |
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Well...
Honestly, I do not see your point.
You say a girl who had a happy family choosing to live on with it in exchange of a city has the same logic as a witch in human form killing herself and others to spare people of their misery has the same logic. This is plain wrong in my opinion, Kazumi never had any happiness to sacrifice, her life was a lie penned by the Pleiades to fill the shoes of Michiru Kazusa. Madoka's life was real, she had a family who craddled her carefully full of love and who she decided to give up in favor of her messiah complex. It's like comparing a death row inmate to a young soldier going to Iraq, the former is doomed regardless of what he does but the second if jeopardizing his life out of his own choice. The problem is not free will, it's how you perceive and react to the situation around you. In this sense Kazumi is far more narrowed than Madoka ever was. Whichever bomb fell on Madoka's life, she still had her family and the possibility of a long and confortable life to support herself in the future. The entire reason why Madoka always contracted is because she couldn't bear to sacrifice others for her own happiness, she could not keep on living knowing she didn't act because of her limitations. Kazumi awoke without memories and without family, she supposedly held the support of her friends but we all saw how that turned out. She was forced into a corner where the only people she had truly know in her short clone life were attempting to kill her because of what she was whereas her own body was running out of control and threatened any person she might have approached in the future. Whereas Madoka held a world belief that was crushed further and further by an unforgiving reality until she fought it back by using her unfathomable power, Kazumi already had harsh revelations far quicker than Madoka but copped with them without giving up or pressing the haxor button like the former did. The only thing that really hit her hard was when her friends betrayed her and she discovered she was a witch, it was much more painful than discovering the terrible truth of witches yet she faced that pain and build back her resolution. The biggest difference you fail to realize is that Kazumi was never a crying damnsel who had an original hope diminished the whole series until the point of deus ex machina, she held her resolution strong the entire story building it back rather quickly every rock the universe threw at her head. When Mami died, Madoka went Shinji mode and we had an entire episode depicting how wasted her desire to be a magical became. When Sayaka turned into a witch, Madoka was curled in her bed trying to escape from a cruel reality that was revealed to her. If it wasn't for Kyubey dumping the whole set of information needed for Madoka to make up her wish and save the universe she would have probably given up being a magical girl or would have turned into Gretchen again. Kazumi never had any of those Shinjiesque moments, when her friends were swallowed she quickly bonded with the Pleiades and shoot the witch trusting herself and others, when Airi kidnapped her and turned into a witch she tried to overcome the situation and later reassured her friends she would not back down from their issues, when the freezer was revealed she still tried to make the best of her situation, with Satomi's betrayal and subsequent revelations she revolted rather than breaking down in tears. Even then so, when she was away and with nowhere left to go she pulled herself back together and decided to try and settle peace with the Pleiades before Hajiri Kanna kidnapped her. Madoka's character was more that of an emotionally frail yet highly optimistic person being deconstructed whereas Kazumi's character is that of a stronger but more realistic person. When you lay their personalities and actions bare they fall respectively into Sagittarius and Ophiuchus by a large number of traits. MSMM and MSKM always held great symbolism with the stars (every witch of the anime had a celestial object whose name they related to) but the later focused on it far more whereas the former gave the main role to faustian themes. Before you go ranting that Ophiuchus is not an official sign, please take into account that oriental societies found it perfectly fit as a valid sign for popular culture. All in all the Zodiac theory adds another layer of depth to into an already symbology heavy series. |
2012-07-04, 00:41 | Link #325 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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Madoka, however? She's offered a choice. Either do nothing and watch everyone you love be destroyed, or try to do something and probably kill EVERYONE ON THE PLANET. By Kyubey's own analysis, Madoka bears a heavier karmic burden than anyone else on the planet. It's why her magic is so ginormous. Quote:
What if an Oriko-style situation happens and everyone in her school is killed, and she wasn't able to do anything about it? What if World War 3 breaks out, and Kyubey reminds Madoka that the nukes will launch unless she uses her omnipotent power to do something about it? Madoka has incredible power, and her personality dictates to her that this gives her incredible responsibility. She keeps rushing to her own demise because she can't tolerate the thought of being able to do something and NOT doing it. It's not that she's not willing to sacrifice others for her happiness, it's that she can't be happy if she's not being as useful as she can be. This is a girl who basically trades her soul to heal a kitten, and you're offering her the hypothetical opportunity to fix any problem with the world she wants. She ultimately uses this to rewrite the universe to save countless souls in every universe from the beginning to the end of time, but she could've done MORE with it. And she KNOWS it. Quote:
...Wow, Kazumi's actually kind of an asshole when I think of it in those words. Quote:
Jesus, do you not know what "foil" means? Yes or no? Quote:
Compare Kazumi instead to the alternate timelines where Madoka has already contracted. These versions of Madoka don't cry or deny reality. They boldly face Walpurgisnacht despite the impossible odds, and she says in her own words that she feels that her decisions up to this day were worth it, even if she fails in her duty. With that in mind, she and Kazumi are almost exactly alike, REGARDLESS of their environments, backrounds, moral supports, and obstacles. THAT is the point I was making. And you keep harping on the EXTERNAL things that separate them, and not the INTERNAL aspects of their character. YOU'RE the one not understanding MY point. Quote:
But the fact of the matter is that they both have different circumstances and different assets to how they can overcome these circumstances, so what I'm stressing is the thoughts, emotions, and personality traits that cause them to make the decisions they do. Although their lives and challenges are entirely different, I am positive that they would make the same general decisions and reach the same conclusions if you swapped them out. If Madoka was the witch-clone with amnesia and only her MG friends to support her, she'd probably make the same decisions. If Kazumi/Michiru had her memories, family, and human friends, and the potential of being an omnipotent goddess and a friend putting her in an infinite timeloop, she'd probably reach the same epiphanies and conclusions Madoka did. Quote:
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2012-07-04, 12:00 | Link #326 | |
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Well...
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If you are going for all the possibilities this becomes a pointless argument, if Mami or Sayaka were in Madoka's shoes they would have come to a similar conclusion because they too were good natured and optimistic. The premises of each character are a focal point in the building of their personalities. You don't understand that this is speculah, that while most of the previous zodiac sign comparisons make perfect sense because they have been openly displayed the last two are yet to materialize because it is just a theory. I am not saying that Madoka is part of Kazumi Magica, I am saying that is possible for her to make an appearance in the future just as her frame was used for a cameo during magical girl description. Things like a school shoot out, a witch attacking Madoka's family or World War III breaking out gets into the array of extrapolations (the later bearing the absurd) which do not reflect canon material. Asking wether Madoka would react the same way Kazumi did if she had been a witch in human form under the Pleiades parenting strays too far from simply looking at Kazumi and Madoka and matching their actions and personalities with Zodiac signs. |
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2012-07-04, 15:35 | Link #327 | |||||
The True Culprit
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2012-07-04, 17:28 | Link #328 | |||||
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Sayaka would never relent to put her life on the line for what she believes is righteous. Mami is only lonely and prone to break because her parents died and she influenced Madoka and Sayaka to enter a doomed life. If Mami still had her parents and was on Madoka's spot do you really think she would not do what she believes to be her duty? That's why putting people in another person's shoes doesn't work for this series, the personality of the characters is defined by the events surrouding them. Quote:
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Yeah, they are so totally alike. A psychological imposition to make a choice cannot be compared to being something not human and dangerous, sorry but Madoka could have lived a long life even if it was ridden with guilt but Kazumi is doomed to wander in isolation until she turns into a complete monster and dies fighting oblivious magical girls. Quote:
Michiru's actions and traits fall into Sagittarius better and that makes her the fitting Sagittarius of the previous year. Chronologically she was the first character to appear and Kazumi being the number 13, the 13th zodiac sign since Sagittarius, together with her own events and traits puts her into a position of closing the Zodiac cycle. Madoka opens a new cycle as the new Sagittarius. |
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2012-07-04, 17:55 | Link #329 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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And if you ARE calling me stupid, then you're being a fucking jackass and should probably stop talking to me before I report you to a mod. Quote:
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Personalities are subjective mental constructs and thus when you are comparing them to each other the only things that matter is what the characters think, feel, and thus choose to do with themselves. The nature of their life obstacles or their external environments are irrelevant so far as it does not impact their decisions and self-image. You continuously both ignore this and refuse to respond to it, repeating your same rhetoric over and over while trying to belittle my opinions and make personal attacks against me. Quote:
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2012-07-05, 15:34 | Link #330 | |
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Well...
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Personalities and internalization of fictitious characters on a short story is complicated especially with the lack of inner monologues and explicit resolutions displayed in both Madoka and Kazumi. We can only base any analysis in reflection to the characters' reaction to their faced situations, in that sense is very hard to separate characters from plot device especially given how Urobuchi writes. Urobuchi writes characters with a purpose, he doesn't consider them as individuals with souls until after his work is finished. In other words, he first creates a role in the story and later fill a character into it (he admitted he names them after his work is written). Hiramatsu is trying to follow that tone and hence the logic behind MSMM and MSKM can be considered similar. In that sense considering a character's personality outside the role he fills becomes redundant, even then so I will try to answer your question about inane emotions in the best way possible. In my opinion Madoka is far more prone to build up painful emotions whereas Kazumi copes with them and gets over it. Madoka takes every negative event to be somehow connected to her lack of action whereas Kazumi tries much better to reason with the situation. That is considering Madoka already as a magical girl since Kazumi's personality cannot be dissociated with her already magical condition. Not that MG Madoka doesn't have courage or lacks strenght to move through hardships and revelations but she becomes increasingly regretful and death seeking. Kazumi values life, she refuses to let painful repercutions get the best of her and will try to move foward and find a reason to cling on always. She wasn't going to confront the Pleiades on a suicidal mission, that was Kanna impersonating Kazumi. We were never shown Kazumi's resolution outside the fact she would not let Kaoru die for her. Madoka is always keen to find a justification for her exhistance, she wants to bear the pain of those around her and assure their happiness and she breaks down in guilt and despair when that fails. Kazumi is not like that, she values her exhistance whichever it is and she wants to share her burden with others. She accepts the possibility of a bittersweet or painful life as long as people around her are willing to face the pain and move foward with their lives. Michiru was more like Madoka, she connected with everyone and tried to be a guiding like for other until she found out the truth and broke under the burden of dooming her friends. Michiru and Kazumi are different characters, the manga even clearly states that the main difference between 13th and the previous clones was that Kazumi received did not received a direct copy of Michiru's memories and personality. Michiru being 1st Sagittarius, Kazumi being Ophiuchus (13th sign) and Madoka being the next Sagittarius can be a symbolic representation of the Zodiac cycle in MSKM closing and a new cycle opening in MSMM. There is also the possibility that Madoka might make a cameo at the end of Kazumi Magica and if Toto and Amy are actually the same black cat it will be awesome. |
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2012-07-05, 17:27 | Link #331 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Pittsburgh
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I find it hard to swallow the idea that Madoka is completely unconnected to the events of Puella Magi Kazumi Magica. Even if we do not see Madoka at all throughout the entire series she is still connected.
Spoiler for Ending of Madoka Magica:
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2012-07-08, 17:11 | Link #340 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Well...
Given that the reason for Michiru's despair was the truth about magical girls becoming witches I think she would survive rather fine.
That of course if they don't pull out a Sayaka on her. I think that in Madokami's universe Michiru will still be alive whereas Nico will be dead (so that Hajiri never finds the true and freaks out) and Airi will be a new Pleiade (Yuuri would still die because of exhaustion). Bonus points if Madoka sends them to save Homura from the demon army. |
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seinen, spin-off |
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