2009-10-01, 05:53 | Link #61 | |||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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The landowning elite of China during its formative unifying years -- the Han dynasty -- were Confucian, and they were part and parcel of the Imperial hierarchy which adapted Confucianism to its own use. Western Han made Confucianism its own; Confucianism made Eastern Han its bitch. Confucian writers in Imperial service crafted elaborate justifications for Empire -- without attacking the ruthless mutual responsibility system that you decry. If anything, Confucianism is part of it. The society where kinship is everything and revenge for harms committed against kin is obligation demands that the State, if it wants to avoid such obligated "proper exchanges," kills, well, everyone. The rest is Qin totalitarianism (Legalism) that Han never abandoned though its Confucian advocates and propagandists repeatedly asserted it did. Even during the years where other philosophies and religions dominated China, Confucianism was an absolute necessity and a powerful undercurrent because it is part and parcel the basic building blocks of the Chinese Imperial structure. It asks for obedience, for a "proper" relationships between ruler and subject. It asserts the primacy of Imperial power. When Tang rulers -- who led the golden age of Daoism and Buddhism -- wanted to restore the Imperial hierarchy and centralize power around themselves, they turned to Confucianists. Even the Khans of the Yuan made use of Confucians to run the basic lower level administrations of its Chinese domains despite its distrust of Confucians (precisely because Confucians were the leaders of traditional Chinese society). And of course the Song were famous for their neo-Confucianists, an admittedly different breed from early "Imperial" Confucians that were the heart of the Han empire. The Emperor was China; Confucianism was China. Blaming the Empire then absolving Confucianists is pure hypocrisy. Absolving Confucius himself of this particular blame is, of course, fine. I doubt much of the man was left when compared to the myth later intellectuals crafted in his name. It's like Socrates and Plato -- who is Socrates, but an extension of whatever Plato wanted him to be? Or, heck, Jesus of Nazareth. A later Rome made its early victim the prophet of its choice, and Christianity as an associate of the Empire grew from there. Quote:
And he lived in an age of total war. Of course it was brutal. It had nothing to do with Chinese people being immoral or stupid or whatever. Quote:
Yellow Turbans, Taiping Rebellion, and so on and so forth. Radicals led repeated failed revolutions -- dubbed "peasant rebellions" -- fueled by millions of desperate Chinese peasantry. And it's not like everybody else love instability. Nobody likes instability, except people that sees benefit from it or have nothing else to lose. We cried "Change!" in 2008 not because Change is Good, but because Change is Better than the shit the neoconservative regime was giving us and still tries to. |
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2009-10-01, 10:51 | Link #63 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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It's the same with Communism. A line has to be drawn between ideas and people. The Neo-Confucian gentry were societal leeches by the time they were overthrown; but that does not mean Confucianism advocated parasitism. |
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2009-10-02, 02:03 | Link #64 | |||
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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It's like saying Christianity is not to blame if some nutjob Christians launched the Crusade. Not okay. Yes, St. Augustine never even thought of the possibility of the Crusades; yes, early Roman Catholicism showed no particular interest in storming Jerusalem in God's Holy Name; yes, our "ideal" Christians are nice people who pray for salvation for all or whatever. But no, it was Christians who fought in the Crusades, and we say Christians did it, and it had everything to do with Christianity, even if they're not ideal Christians according to our modern worldview. Likewise, so does Confucianism. It is a philosophy that lasts for thousands of years, is ever malleable (despite its constant affirmation of the traditional and "righteous"), and if somebody said he was a Confucian while serving in the Han dynasty, he was a Confucian. Some other guy from the 21st century can't just look back and say, no no no he wasn't a Confucian because it wasn't the right Confucianism as he knows it today. And yes, before the Song Neo-Confucianism, the Confucians of the Han dynasty incorporated Legalism into their thoughts and practices. And their influences, good or bad, were extremely important to the entire project of empire. The Han empire was firmly a mixture of earlier Qin "Legalist" models (though it repeatedly claimed it wasn't) and the Confucian ideals. Later dynasties adopted some key features of the Han model, even the cosmopolitan Tang. Their bureaucracy certainly wasn't Buddhist or Daoist, and there were no Legalists left that I know of -- Legalism's influence in Chinese culture had by that time been incorporated into "Imperial" Confucianism. The dominance of a military aristocracy in the Tang was new, a product of the centuries of warlord chaos, but the bureaucracy that served it wasn't. Confucianism and the Chinese Empire are deeply interrelated in many, many ways. The bureaucracy was part Legalism part Confucianism; the civil service examination was pure Confucianism at work; the model of filial piety between ruler and official, official and the people, etc., etc. was a very Confucian model. Quote:
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2009-10-02, 05:06 | Link #65 |
Resource cabinet
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Do we really need so much parties? We don't want political shows, we don't wants lies and broken promises, and we certainly don't want more political instability. I do not see any problem with the current one party system.
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2009-10-02, 05:12 | Link #66 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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And uhhh, instability usually is the product of a party not given an opportunity to express its interests. By the looks of it, you have a handful. Watch out for the ethnics. May you emulate India's example. Last edited by Thingle; 2009-10-02 at 05:38. |
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2009-10-02, 05:44 | Link #67 |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Nope. As i said i was born in Hong Kong under British Colonial rule. I like the British, but I like China too. We enjoy rights to say what we want. It might be not really the case in mainland China but with internet, rules are no longer a barrier. We simply hop over it and show how corrupt some officials are etc. We have our own definition of "benefits of citizenship", we don't need your values, no matter how "right" you think they are.
Oh by the way are you Chinese? Or are you a Philippine??? |
2009-10-02, 05:47 | Link #68 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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2009-10-02, 06:00 | Link #69 |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
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yes and what fine man they are! We like it. Look at our Legco (similar to houses). We have useless legislators arguing meaningless topics and wasting our time and money. We didn't get more democracy because they rejected that bill "coz we need full democrazy NOW". We certainly don't want that to happen to our government. And, we did cast our votes for our Chief executive.
YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION >> ARE YOU A PHILIPPINE? |
2009-10-02, 11:49 | Link #70 | |
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Imperial Manila, Philippines
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Remember. It's the same CCP that branded Confucianism as a remnant of the feudal past. You cannot expect them to be the benevolent autocrats you seem to fantasize about. |
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2009-10-02, 22:16 | Link #71 |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
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1. I never fantasize they would be very democratic like USA or something.
2. Even if they decided to do something to our little city we can have our say in the party, and 3. since you are not a Chinese you have no rights to attack our country, no matter it's the Communisty Party or not. It is of great insult to us Chinese if you continue to attack our Country for the sake of provoking our emotions. Stop it please. Oh, and i am so happy they banned you. |
2009-10-02, 22:19 | Link #72 |
思想工作
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 31
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I still think the CCP needs to go though. Almost everything it has done has been bad, and even the economic reforms have such huge problems that in the long run it will not be worth it.
And yes, Thingle is definitely a Philippine, or a Chinese who hates China (it doesn't really matter either way). |
2009-10-03, 00:33 | Link #73 |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
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For that, we just have to wait and see how things unfold. Maybe we need a new (political) system after all, or maybe the current system might work out ok. Still, the vast amount of problems are being tackled one by one, and I think the foremost would the the corruption in the mainland. We have the ICAC which directly reports to our Chief Executive (head of state in other countries) so I believe we can be a model for China to follow. Set up a similar department and bust all those corrupt officials. Then the situation can start to improve.
He is sick, at least mentally. We don't need to care what he says. |
2009-10-04, 22:53 | Link #74 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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