AnimeSuki Forums

Drifloon · 2012-03-03, 15:09

The seal thing was a really stupid plot device that wasn't even necessary, honestly.

The same effect could have been achieved by Dlanor just saying in red that 'Neither Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, nor Nanjo escaped through the window!' That would have still made it unsolvable without using ShKanon, without having to make up a silly rule that didn't even make any sense.

AuraTwilight · 2012-03-03, 15:24

You're right, but the same could be said of the big court room trial in EP5. I guess Ryukishi wanted the bad guys to be able to just....fucking cheat, I guess?

Kylon99 · 2012-03-03, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

My interpretation of "new" Beatrice and what she's trying to tell us.
However, I think this is a pretty big clue for me. Just as Bern said back in EP1, Beatrice is a personification of the rules. To Battler who had a very little understanding of these rules in the beginning, she was a terrifying person who took joy in killing people. Now that he understands all the rules and "who Beatrice is" she's portrayed as very child like. This is exactly what Battler had wanted all along. Back in EP5, he keeps asking "what was she thinking?" Well, now we get to see this based on his understanding. We'll never be able to see that menacing troll face again, because we too will soon understand what Beatrice was thinking.

Oooo... you're getting close. 8)

In a way, I think I understand the whole Umineko event from Ryukishi's point of view now, how he would read the message boards and see people talking about their theories. When you read something like what Random's been saying you can only think, "You're so close! You're almost there!" He sees that people have been gathering up the clues he left in the text and how it's basically one MORE step. I can see how it really is just 'one more step!' from there... but...

Of course, I remember when I went through this and I know just how hard it is to put all the pieces together and figure it out. I don't think it was really as easy as Ryukishi thought. That last step was a real doozy... 8)

Anyways, thanks for posting your thoughts, Random. It's still fun watching others go through the game. 8)

LyricalAura · 2012-03-03, 17:17

I posted various pieces of this theory a long time ago, but I don't think I ever compiled them into one big post. So, presented for your entertainment, in all its malignant glory:

Spoiler for An alternate solution to the Logic Error:

I. Kanon's escape

Things we know:

In EP2, Kinzo was shown being very friendly to Kanon.
In EP2, a point was made of concealing Kanon's real name.
In EP4, everyone in the dining room acknowledged "Kinzo's" existence.
In EP4, Beato was unable to deny the possibility that someone had inherited Kinzo's name.
In EP6, we found out that Kinzo treated Kanon almost like a son.
In EP6, Kanon's real name was supposedly revealed... anticlimactically, and only in front of one person.
Erika told Battler to exclude "Kinzo" from the location check without actually verifying that "Kinzo" didn't exist on the EP6 game board.

Kanon is Kinzo's son, and rightfully inherited his name at birth. He was never in the cousins' room in the first place, and Erika didn't realize it because she'd been cleverly lured into excluding him from her checks.

II. The person limit

We were told that Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the next room over, and "everyone else" was in the cousins' room. Unlike Kinzo, Erika herself was not excluded from the location check. That means her existence in the hallway is impossible. The only way she could have left the guesthouse is by going out the window in the next room over. And no one existed in that room except the five people who were named!

Erika is the culprit of EP6. And in EP5, we were told that the culprit must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story. Putting that together with her apparent nonexistence, she must be an entity like Beatrice: a "detective's illusion" to match the "witch's illusion". So when she takes actions on the game board, it's actually an illusionary facade over the actions of the real culprit.

That culprit was Shannon, who was in the next room over.

III. The meeting in the guest room

Next we need to figure out the reasons for the pieces' actions so that the plot doesn't descend into a mess of meta-gaming. Why did Kanon go to "rescue" Battler in the first place, and why did Battler prepare a dangerous scalding water trap for Erika instead of just walking out of the guest room?

More things we know:

Battler thought he was participating in an innocent farce mystery.
Battler had no way of knowing that Erika had duct taped the outside of the door.
When Erika entered, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.
Excluding one place, Battler was not in the room.
According to Erika, she searched the room except for one place, which was the closet.
Battler left while Erika was in the bathroom.
Kanon's rescue of Battler may or may not have been intentional.

The key to the whole thing is that Piece-Erika isn't the detective, she's a fantasy piece masking the culprit. Her perspective isn't reliable, and we can't trust even a single thing she sees or does unless it's backed up by red truth. Red, not blue. That was the second critical error that Meta-Erika made: believing that her theories corresponded to things her piece was actually doing.

Shannon is a knowing participant in the farce mystery. She left Battler alive in the guest room for a very simple reason: she needed him to continue the farce in order to disguise her real murders.

After leaving the guest house, Shannon met up with Kanon, and they went to the mansion together to discuss their next moves with Battler. Shannon opened the door for Kanon to let him in, and then entered and immediately closed and locked the door herself, not leaving any time for someone to slip out.

At the moment they entered, Battler wasn't on the bed. He was definitely hiding somewhere in the room. But he came out of hiding when he realized who it was, so Shannon didn't need to search the room at all. The one place Battler (and Kanon) could exist that was excluded by the red wasn't the closet as Meta-Erika believed, but the center of the room, where everyone was standing and talking to each other.

IV. Kanon's murder

When they were finished, Shannon went into the bathroom for a moment, perhaps to get a gun she had hidden there earlier. The trap that Meta-Erika saw existed only in the fantasy world of her piece's perspective. Battler left to take care of business, and Kanon reset the chain lock behind him. When Shannon came out, she made sure that Battler was gone, and then shot Kanon dead and stuffed his corpse in the closet. Because he was dead, he no longer counted as "existing" in the room.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-03-03, 17:19

Quote:

Anyways, thanks for posting your thoughts, Random. It's still fun watching others go through the game. 8)

Would you like me to read to you, Featherine?

Quote:

You're right, but the same could be said of the big court room trial in EP5.

Yeah, people said "oh look, the red doesn't work like it used to."
No, that's not right. I think it was just that the characters couldn't use it the way they wanted to. They're in a court. You need evidence to back up your claim.

Like Battler's "logic error": in EP4, they couldn't even speak in red something that wasn't true. So Battler would never be able to have made a logic error to begin with, simply because of the way red works. He wouldn't have been able to say it in red to begin with if it wasn't true.

AuraTwilight · 2012-03-03, 17:57

Quote:

No, that's not right. I think it was just that the characters couldn't use it the way they wanted to. They're in a court. You need evidence to back up your claim.

Except courts don't work that way. And Virgilia's been comparing the game to a 'court' since EP3, so why the sudden rule change? Lambda and Bern and Erika are just cheating jerks.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-03-03, 18:58

The Magical Court of Illusions worked that way. Well, my point was that when I see people say "Oh look, now the red has different rules." that's wrong. It's still red, and as a reader you should still trust it.

And Lyrical, I assumed the whole "Erika couldn't have existed in the hallway," didn't matter because Battler and Erika may have acknowledged that Piece!Erika would have been excluded, from the check since she herself was doing the checking. It is an interesting point, because they didn't say one way or the other. Your musings on Kanon = "Kinzo" was something I was toying with since I finished reading EP4. I do wonder if he is related to Kinzo, and is Natsuhi's son from 19 years ago. According to Natsuhi, Kinzo did want her to treat the child as if he was her own son, so Kinzo would have seen him as a blood relation as well regardless.

AuraTwilight · 2012-03-03, 19:30

Quote:

The Magical Court of Illusions worked that way. Well, my point was that when I see people say "Oh look, now the red has different rules." that's wrong. It's still red, and as a reader you should still trust it.

It's not that the red has different rules so much that Bern and Lambda basically get to do whatever they want without consequence and they're never called on it. It's not at all a fair game and Erika's team is constantly cheating.

Drifloon · 2012-03-04, 03:48

Personally what bugs me about the E5 trial is the way Beatrice's situation is presented rather than the inconsistencies with the way red truth works. Shouldn't Beatrice's responsibility be to prove that Natsuhi COULDN'T have done it, making a 'witch culprit theory' the only possibility? Showing that someone else could have done it doesn't prove Natsuhi's innocence, and it just breaks the Illusion of the Witch even more. I really didn't get how it kept saying that Beatrice felt pain from the Illusion of the Witch being denied whenever it was proved that one of the people other than Natsuhi couldn't have done it, since that's actually STRENGTHENING the credibility of the 'witch culprit theory'.

AuraTwilight · 2012-03-04, 03:53

Because the Beatrice of EP5 represents Natsuhi's delusions, specifically.

GreyZone · 2012-03-08, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I posted various pieces of this theory a long time ago, but I don't think I ever compiled them into one big post. So, presented for your entertainment, in all its malignant glory:

Spoiler for An alternate solution to the Logic Error:

I. Kanon's escape

Things we know:

In EP2, Kinzo was shown being very friendly to Kanon.
In EP2, a point was made of concealing Kanon's real name.
In EP4, everyone in the dining room acknowledged "Kinzo's" existence.
In EP4, Beato was unable to deny the possibility that someone had inherited Kinzo's name.
In EP6, we found out that Kinzo treated Kanon almost like a son.
In EP6, Kanon's real name was supposedly revealed... anticlimactically, and only in front of one person.
Erika told Battler to exclude "Kinzo" from the location check without actually verifying that "Kinzo" didn't exist on the EP6 game board.

Kanon is Kinzo's son, and rightfully inherited his name at birth. He was never in the cousins' room in the first place, and Erika didn't realize it because she'd been cleverly lured into excluding him from her checks.

II. The person limit

We were told that Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the next room over, and "everyone else" was in the cousins' room. Unlike Kinzo, Erika herself was not excluded from the location check. That means her existence in the hallway is impossible. The only way she could have left the guesthouse is by going out the window in the next room over. And no one existed in that room except the five people who were named!

Erika is the culprit of EP6. And in EP5, we were told that the culprit must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story. Putting that together with her apparent nonexistence, she must be an entity like Beatrice: a "detective's illusion" to match the "witch's illusion". So when she takes actions on the game board, it's actually an illusionary facade over the actions of the real culprit.

That culprit was Shannon, who was in the next room over.

III. The meeting in the guest room

Next we need to figure out the reasons for the pieces' actions so that the plot doesn't descend into a mess of meta-gaming. Why did Kanon go to "rescue" Battler in the first place, and why did Battler prepare a dangerous scalding water trap for Erika instead of just walking out of the guest room?

More things we know:

Battler thought he was participating in an innocent farce mystery.
Battler had no way of knowing that Erika had duct taped the outside of the door.
When Erika entered, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room.
Excluding one place, Battler was not in the room.
According to Erika, she searched the room except for one place, which was the closet.
Battler left while Erika was in the bathroom.
Kanon's rescue of Battler may or may not have been intentional.

The key to the whole thing is that Piece-Erika isn't the detective, she's a fantasy piece masking the culprit. Her perspective isn't reliable, and we can't trust even a single thing she sees or does unless it's backed up by red truth. Red, not blue. That was the second critical error that Meta-Erika made: believing that her theories corresponded to things her piece was actually doing.

Shannon is a knowing participant in the farce mystery. She left Battler alive in the guest room for a very simple reason: she needed him to continue the farce in order to disguise her real murders.

After leaving the guest house, Shannon met up with Kanon, and they went to the mansion together to discuss their next moves with Battler. Shannon opened the door for Kanon to let him in, and then entered and immediately closed and locked the door herself, not leaving any time for someone to slip out.

At the moment they entered, Battler wasn't on the bed. He was definitely hiding somewhere in the room. But he came out of hiding when he realized who it was, so Shannon didn't need to search the room at all. The one place Battler (and Kanon) could exist that was excluded by the red wasn't the closet as Meta-Erika believed, but the center of the room, where everyone was standing and talking to each other.

IV. Kanon's murder

When they were finished, Shannon went into the bathroom for a moment, perhaps to get a gun she had hidden there earlier. The trap that Meta-Erika saw existed only in the fantasy world of her piece's perspective. Battler left to take care of business, and Kanon reset the chain lock behind him. When Shannon came out, she made sure that Battler was gone, and then shot Kanon dead and stuffed his corpse in the closet. Because he was dead, he no longer counted as "existing" in the room.

[Request: 'The definition of a closed room implies that all forms of interference that pass between the inside and outside of the room are PREVENTED'.] Acknowledged

[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.

At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!!

[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

So... Erika is not Kanon since they have seperate bodies... and you also said that Erika is only a different personality of Shannon and not of Kanon. And even if Erika's perspective is "unreliable", she cannot confirm something, that she didn't really do (the seals), so only her could put the seals in its place. Oh i almost forgot: Erika got 3 rooms worth of duct tape. And if you take this as it is in EP8, where the master keys were bound to the servants and couldn't be removed, then we can also say that Erika was not able to give away her duct tape. Therefore it is impossible for anyone, but Furudo Erika to put on the seals, which is impossible by your theory, because she was inside the next room over.

LyricalAura · 2012-03-08, 11:49

Fooool, you think that defense will work? My theory requires her to be able to seal remotely, but yours requires her to exist in four places at once!

Time was frozen the moment Erika left the cousins' room, and yet she was able to seal both the doors (from the hallway) AND all of the 2F windows (from outside) instantaneously? Ridiculous. That alone was enough proof that those duct tape seals don't physically exist on the game board as anything but a narratively convenient fantasy. Where did it say in red that those doors and windows were sealed with duct tape?

GreyZone · 2012-03-08, 14:49

Not bad. Your greatest weapon, the lack of a reliable perspective is strong. But it can be defeated!

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!

If you say, that the room was sealed with any other thing, besides duct tape, then i demand that you present that thing right here, right now!

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE.
It must be possible to reach the truth completly without red truth! Therefore Erika's perspective, while not completly reliable, is not allowed to be complete false either!

Oh and about the other thing: I never implied that the doors and Windows were close at the same time at all! "Sealed" means the moment, where the room became a "closed room". So until both seals were placed, the room was not sealed yet.
By using the classic solution, it does not matter in what order the seals were placed!

Hoshino Kazuki · 2012-03-12, 09:11

May I ask a question?
In the second game, Beatrice said in red that: there are 18 people in this island
In the fourth game, she said: the actual number of people in this island is 17
but at the end of this episode, it is said that Erika is the 17th people, so there are only 16 people right? So why is Beatrice was able to said those statement in red? I though the red can only tell the truth?

Oroboro · 2012-03-12, 11:20

^

I believe the actual statement from alliance is "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!"

Big difference in wording, so nobody was lying.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-03-12, 14:47

Yup, in the second game she says "No more than 18 people" 17 and 16 are no more than 18.
In the fourth game she says "No more than 17 people" 16 is still no more than 18.

Which is funny because once you add what they say at the end of this chapter, the fourth game red "This is true for all games." is still in effect, even with the addition of Erika.

LyricalAura · 2012-03-20, 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Not bad. Your greatest weapon, the lack of a reliable perspective is strong. But it can be defeated!

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!![

If you say, that the room was sealed with any other thing, besides duct tape, then i demand that you present that thing right here, right now!

I refuse! The room was not sealed with a "thing" at all. The "seal" was nothing more than an authorial agreement to notify Erika when the sealed door or window was opened! As for your clues...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE.
It must be possible to reach the truth completly without red truth! Therefore Erika's perspective, while not completly reliable, is not allowed to be complete false either!

Furudo Erika is not the detective. Furthermore, Knox's 2nd was never stated during the sixth game. In fact, that game isn't independently solvable without reference to the love duel witnessed by Beatrice, so Knox's 2nd could never apply to it in the first place! Not to mention that if the guesthouse seals were physical duct tape, Piece-Erika couldn't possibly check them remotely while in the mansion, so Meta-Erika could only have used "supernatural" techniques to get that information!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Oh and about the other thing: I never implied that the doors and Windows were close at the same time at all! "Sealed" means the moment, where the room became a "closed room". So until both seals were placed, the room was not sealed yet.
By using the classic solution, it does not matter in what order the seals were placed!

True, true. But that blade cuts both ways, you know? For instance, who ever said that all of the seals were placed from the outside? Erika sealed the next room over while she was still inside it, and then broke the window seal herself! Therefore, it's possible even if she really used duct tape!

GreyZone · 2012-03-20, 11:18

Oh wait! Blue truth arguing about the window is forbidden^^

Also: Furudo Erika is a human

And: exclusivly in this game the number of "people" is equal to the number of "bodies".

A dead body is still a body, be it as a corpse or as a living human, therefore by your logic, Kanon cannot leave the room and must still exist inside it.

and even if you deny that, then:

When Kanon "doesn't exist" in the guest room, There were 17 people., that means before Kanon died, there must have been 18 people. No more than 17 humans exist on Rokkenjima. This applies to all games! Adding Erika to the number, as it was done in EP5, did NOT happen here yet! Therefore there is 1 person too much on Rokkenjima and this theory fails!

LyricalAura · 2012-03-20, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Oh wait! Blue truth arguing about the window is forbidden^^

Oh, that's right. What was it Beato said to Erika? Something like: "Go ahead and remove that seal if you want. You're the one it's locking up now."

GreyZone · 2012-03-20, 12:18

(see updates of previous posts)

2012-03-03, 15:24	Link #5222
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	You're right, but the same could be said of the big court room trial in EP5. I guess Ryukishi wanted the bad guys to be able to just....fucking cheat, I guess? __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-03-03, 17:17	Link #5224
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	I posted various pieces of this theory a long time ago, but I don't think I ever compiled them into one big post. So, presented for your entertainment, in all its malignant glory: Spoiler for An alternate solution to the Logic Error: I. Kanon's escape Things we know: In EP2, Kinzo was shown being very friendly to Kanon. In EP2, a point was made of concealing Kanon's real name. In EP4, everyone in the dining room acknowledged "Kinzo's" existence. In EP4, Beato was unable to deny the possibility that someone had inherited Kinzo's name. In EP6, we found out that Kinzo treated Kanon almost like a son. In EP6, Kanon's real name was supposedly revealed... anticlimactically, and only in front of one person. Erika told Battler to exclude "Kinzo" from the location check without actually verifying that "Kinzo" didn't exist on the EP6 game board. Kanon is Kinzo's son, and rightfully inherited his name at birth. He was never in the cousins' room in the first place, and Erika didn't realize it because she'd been cleverly lured into excluding him from her checks. II. The person limit We were told that Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in the next room over, and "everyone else" was in the cousins' room. Unlike Kinzo, Erika herself was not excluded from the location check. That means her existence in the hallway is impossible. The only way she could have left the guesthouse is by going out the window in the next room over. And no one existed in that room except the five people who were named! Erika is the culprit of EP6. And in EP5, we were told that the culprit must be someone who was introduced in the early part of the story. Putting that together with her apparent nonexistence, she must be an entity like Beatrice: a "detective's illusion" to match the "witch's illusion". So when she takes actions on the game board, it's actually an illusionary facade over the actions of the real culprit. That culprit was Shannon, who was in the next room over. III. The meeting in the guest room Next we need to figure out the reasons for the pieces' actions so that the plot doesn't descend into a mess of meta-gaming. Why did Kanon go to "rescue" Battler in the first place, and why did Battler prepare a dangerous scalding water trap for Erika instead of just walking out of the guest room? More things we know: Battler thought he was participating in an innocent farce mystery. Battler had no way of knowing that Erika had duct taped the outside of the door. When Erika entered, Battler was hiding somewhere in the room. Excluding one place, Battler was not in the room. According to Erika, she searched the room except for one place, which was the closet. Battler left while Erika was in the bathroom. Kanon's rescue of Battler may or may not have been intentional. The key to the whole thing is that Piece-Erika isn't the detective, she's a fantasy piece masking the culprit. Her perspective isn't reliable, and we can't trust even a single thing she sees or does unless it's backed up by red truth. Red, not blue. That was the second critical error that Meta-Erika made: believing that her theories corresponded to things her piece was actually doing. Shannon is a knowing participant in the farce mystery. She left Battler alive in the guest room for a very simple reason: she needed him to continue the farce in order to disguise her real murders. After leaving the guest house, Shannon met up with Kanon, and they went to the mansion together to discuss their next moves with Battler. Shannon opened the door for Kanon to let him in, and then entered and immediately closed and locked the door herself, not leaving any time for someone to slip out. At the moment they entered, Battler wasn't on the bed. He was definitely hiding somewhere in the room. But he came out of hiding when he realized who it was, so Shannon didn't need to search the room at all. The one place Battler (and Kanon) could exist that was excluded by the red wasn't the closet as Meta-Erika believed, but the center of the room, where everyone was standing and talking to each other. IV. Kanon's murder When they were finished, Shannon went into the bathroom for a moment, perhaps to get a gun she had hidden there earlier. The trap that Meta-Erika saw existed only in the fantasy world of her piece's perspective. Battler left to take care of business, and Kanon reset the chain lock behind him. When Shannon came out, she made sure that Battler was gone, and then shot Kanon dead and stuffed his corpse in the closet. Because he was dead, he no longer counted as "existing" in the room. __________________ "Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

2012-03-03, 18:58	Link #5227
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	The Magical Court of Illusions worked that way. Well, my point was that when I see people say "Oh look, now the red has different rules." that's wrong. It's still red, and as a reader you should still trust it. And Lyrical, I assumed the whole "Erika couldn't have existed in the hallway," didn't matter because Battler and Erika may have acknowledged that Piece!Erika would have been excluded, from the check since she herself was doing the checking. It is an interesting point, because they didn't say one way or the other. Your musings on Kanon = "Kinzo" was something I was toying with since I finished reading EP4. I do wonder if he is related to Kinzo, and is Natsuhi's son from 19 years ago. According to Natsuhi, Kinzo did want her to treat the child as if he was her own son, so Kinzo would have seen him as a blood relation as well regardless. __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen. Last edited by RandomAvatarFan; 2012-03-03 at 19:10.

2012-03-04, 03:53	Link #5230
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Because the Beatrice of EP5 represents Natsuhi's delusions, specifically. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-03-08, 11:49	Link #5232
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	Fooool, you think that defense will work? My theory requires her to be able to seal remotely, but yours requires her to exist in four places at once! Time was frozen the moment Erika left the cousins' room, and yet she was able to seal both the doors (from the hallway) AND all of the 2F windows (from outside) instantaneously? Ridiculous. That alone was enough proof that those duct tape seals don't physically exist on the game board as anything but a narratively convenient fantasy. Where did it say in red that those doors and windows were sealed with duct tape? __________________ "Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

2012-03-03, 15:09	Link #5221
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	The seal thing was a really stupid plot device that wasn't even necessary, honestly. The same effect could have been achieved by Dlanor just saying in red that 'Neither Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, nor Nanjo escaped through the window!' That would have still made it unsolvable without using ShKanon, without having to make up a silly rule that didn't even make any sense.

2012-03-04, 03:48	Link #5229
Drifloon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011	Personally what bugs me about the E5 trial is the way Beatrice's situation is presented rather than the inconsistencies with the way red truth works. Shouldn't Beatrice's responsibility be to prove that Natsuhi COULDN'T have done it, making a 'witch culprit theory' the only possibility? Showing that someone else could have done it doesn't prove Natsuhi's innocence, and it just breaks the Illusion of the Witch even more. I really didn't get how it kept saying that Beatrice felt pain from the Illusion of the Witch being denied whenever it was proved that one of the people other than Natsuhi couldn't have done it, since that's actually STRENGTHENING the credibility of the 'witch culprit theory'.

2012-03-08, 14:49	Link #5233
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	Not bad. Your greatest weapon, the lack of a reliable perspective is strong. But it can be defeated! Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!! If you say, that the room was sealed with any other thing, besides duct tape, then i demand that you present that thing right here, right now! Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective TECHNIQUE. It must be possible to reach the truth completly without red truth! Therefore Erika's perspective, while not completly reliable, is not allowed to be complete false either! Oh and about the other thing: I never implied that the doors and Windows were close at the same time at all! "Sealed" means the moment, where the room became a "closed room". So until both seals were placed, the room was not sealed yet. By using the classic solution, it does not matter in what order the seals were placed!

2012-03-12, 09:11	Link #5234
Hoshino Kazuki Loli/Shotacon Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Endless Sky of Solitude	May I ask a question? In the second game, Beatrice said in red that: there are 18 people in this island In the fourth game, she said: the actual number of people in this island is 17 but at the end of this episode, it is said that Erika is the 17th people, so there are only 16 people right? So why is Beatrice was able to said those statement in red? I though the red can only tell the truth?

2012-03-12, 11:20	Link #5235
Oroboro Endless Sorceror Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Wisconsin	^ I believe the actual statement from alliance is "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!" Big difference in wording, so nobody was lying.

2012-03-12, 14:47	Link #5236
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	Yup, in the second game she says "No more than 18 people" 17 and 16 are no more than 18. In the fourth game she says "No more than 17 people" 16 is still no more than 18. Which is funny because once you add what they say at the end of this chapter, the fourth game red "This is true for all games." is still in effect, even with the addition of Erika. __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-03-20, 11:18	Link #5238
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	Oh wait! Blue truth arguing about the window is forbidden^^ Also: Furudo Erika is a human And: exclusivly in this game the number of "people" is equal to the number of "bodies". A dead body is still a body, be it as a corpse or as a living human, therefore by your logic, Kanon cannot leave the room and must still exist inside it. and even if you deny that, then: When Kanon "doesn't exist" in the guest room, There were 17 people., that means before Kanon died, there must have been 18 people. No more than 17 humans exist on Rokkenjima. This applies to all games! Adding Erika to the number, as it was done in EP5, did NOT happen here yet! Therefore there is 1 person too much on Rokkenjima and this theory fails! Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-03-20 at 11:41.

2012-03-20, 12:18	Link #5240
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	(see updates of previous posts)