Sword Art Online - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Ruby Princess

No offense, but I think you're just jealous of Kirito because you think he might be smarter than you and a quicker learner to boot. I feel inadequate in comparison to people like him too, but I don't claim poor writing just because a character is capable of something that I'm not. Maybe you're being just a tad conceited here?

What?

Never mind the fact that I can't be jealous of Kirito's "abilities" because he doesn't exist. But even if he's the smartest computer whiz on the planet in this story, he had to at least be able to see something to know what he should type and to know that it was having an effect. I don't think he's ever been a GM in SAO before, and he definitely had never heard of Yui's program before, and I don't think he's ever even had direct access to the SAO servers before, so it's not as if he has experience doing this exact sort of thing. Every computer system has its own functions, interface, and rules, and this is the very first game of its kind released on the market. So no matter how smart he is or how gifted, just starting to type blindly would not work. We have to assume there is more going on than what we were shown if we want to consider it realistic.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Poking around a debug menu really isn't rocket science though.

Well, yeah, we have to assume that there must have been some sort of keyboard-controlled debug system that we just didn't see (visible through Kirito's NerveGear). And somehow, he could use that to find the program from the list of subsystems, convert it into an in-game object, and have the program download to his personal NerveGear's memory upon logout, within the time elapsed. If the options in the software exposed that functionality, then it may not have been all that hard to do. But he would have needed some sort of interface beyond what was shown.


Anyway, I wasn't really intending for it to be taken all that seriously... I just thought it was funny (so I meant this topic more as a joke). Like I said, I still definitely enjoyed the episode in spite of this.

[SilverSyko]

My thoughts on this episode in two statements:

Yui = Aura

Cardinal = Morganna Mode Gone

If you know .hack you should more or less understand what I'm getting at.

Otherwise though, finally a good episode showcasing the fact that SAO is indeed a game world. Makes up for last week's realism annoyances. Self-aware AI's, data deletion (drain), an in-game operational area for doing repairs and management, and the reconfiguring of Yui's data into an in-game object. I am pleased.~

Though the "dramatic" scene about Yui wanting to be Kirito and Asuna's "daughter" forever was kind of corny and hard for me to take seriously. That's just me though.

Anyway, I assume next week is the finale for the first half of the series. Wonder how that will go.

[orpheus2]

Good episode.

LOL at the frog legs. Come on, Asuna just cook them. They are actually quite good once you get past the frog part.

Hello, Aura expy. I knew she resembled a .hack character except she is a lot weaker compared to Aura in terms of capability. Then again, she is just an AI for counseling.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

What?

Never mind the fact that I can't be jealous of Kirito's "abilities" because he doesn't exist. But even if he's the smartest computer whiz on the planet in this story, he had to at least be able to see something to know what he should type and to know that it was having an effect. I don't think he's ever been a GM in SAO before, and he definitely had never heard of Yui's program before, and I don't think he's ever even had direct access to the SAO servers before, so it's not as if he has experience doing this exact sort of thing. Every computer system has its own functions, interface, and rules, and this is the very first game of its kind released on the market. So no matter how smart he is or how gifted, just starting to type blindly would not work. We have to assume there is more going on than what we were shown if we want to consider it realistic.

Well, yeah, we have to assume that there must have been some sort of keyboard-controlled debug system that we just didn't see (visible through Kirito's NerveGear). And somehow, he could use that to find the program from the list of subsystems, convert it into an in-game object, and have the program download to his personal NerveGear's memory upon logout, within the time elapsed. If the options in the software exposed that functionality, then it may not have been all that hard to do. But he would have needed some sort of interface beyond what was shown.

True. You have to also take into account that the subsystem you removed must not cause errors in the main program. If Kirito had done it wrong, he could have crashed the entire or at least some parts of SAO.

[Xaturas]

Am I the only one that actually noticed it?
At Yui scene where she is explaining who she is, there is a lot of screens of players. We get suicide dude and then, she goes and say that some players even go completely mad and tadadamdam screen shifts to Ms. Blacksmith san shouting her throat.
Unless I'm mistaken but she does have same haircut and freckles. So did blacksmith girl actually went completely insane in game, then somehow someone rehabilitated her or what ^^.

[mod edit: removed speculation; please go to the appropriate thread depending on if you're a novel reader or not]

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Xaturas

At Yui scene where she is explaining who she is, there is a lot of screens of players. We get suicide dude and then, she goes and say that some players even go completely mad and tadadamdam screen shifts to Ms. Blacksmith san shouting her throat.

Good catch; that's definitely her (you can tell by the little hair piece in the corner). I don't know if she necessarily went insane or what, but I'm sure she had some traumatic experiences in the game. That may help explain why Lisbeth kept glancing back at the photo that they kept drawing attention to back in Episode 7. Those are probably all former guild members who died, or something like that.

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

What?

Never mind the fact that I can't be jealous of Kirito's "abilities" because he doesn't exist. But even if he's the smartest computer whiz on the planet in this story, he had to at least be able to see something to know what he should type and to know that it was having an effect. I don't think he's ever been a GM in SAO before, and he definitely had never heard of Yui's program before, and I don't think he's ever even had direct access to the SAO servers before, so it's not as if he has experience doing this exact sort of thing. Every computer system has its own functions, interface, and rules, and this is the very first game of its kind released on the market. So no matter how smart he is or how gifted, just starting to type blindly would not work. We have to assume there is more going on than what we were shown if we want to consider it realistic.

Well, yeah, we have to assume that there must have been some sort of keyboard-controlled debug system that we just didn't see (visible through Kirito's NerveGear). And somehow, he could use that to find the program from the list of subsystems, convert it into an in-game object, and have the program download to his personal NerveGear's memory upon logout, within the time elapsed. If the options in the software exposed that functionality, then it may not have been all that hard to do. But he would have needed some sort of interface beyond what was shown.


Anyway, I wasn't really intending for it to be taken all that seriously... I just thought it was funny (so I meant this topic more as a joke). Like I said, I still definitely enjoyed the episode in spite of this.

I dunno if this was made clear in first episode, so I will put this in spoilers:

Spoiler for Kiritos knowledge about VR-Games and programming skills from the Light Novel:

SAO is NOT the first VR-Game it is the first VRMMO, beforehand there were many singleplayer games like e. g. simulations, so it isn't entirely new. Also as stated in one of my previous posts, he learned his programming skills from reading books which were mostly published by Kayabe with if I recall right programm examples. From there it isn't overly hard to at least assume that Kayabe used the same programming language he used in the books for SAO, so he just gave it a try and ofc because of the plot succeeded

Ofc this still doesn't solve the problem with how he packed it to extract Yui from the main server, saving her at his Nerve Gear and creating an item that looked like that in some mere seconds even if he knew the comands xD . Well for the last problem it could be just like another poster pointed out the system itself generated the item just like with a dying familiar, so he didn't have to make it.

And I have to agree, this topic is a nice base for discussion and unlike in MAL it doesn't end in a 20 site-flame-war -.-

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Though the "dramatic" scene about Yui wanting to be Kirito and Asuna's "daughter" forever was kind of corny and hard for me to take seriously. That's just me though.

No it's not just you. It was really corny. We had only known Yui for two episodes, so there's no real attachment to her no matter how cute she is. Asuna's attachment to her is even harder to get into. The whole thing felt cheesy and forced because it lacked character development to support all the drama.

Kawahara's writing is very lacking on the character department, but that's something that was evident from the start. I've gotten used to it somehow and I'm able to enjoy SAO despite this now.

[mod edit: removed]

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No it's not just you. It was really corny. We had only known Yui for two episodes, so there's no real attachment to her no matter how cute she is. Asuna's attachment to her is even harder to get into. The whole thing felt cheesy and forced because it lacked character development to support all the drama.

I felt attached to her, you don't need to have 20 episodes of character development to be attached to a character.

[GundamZZ]

Originally Posted by orpheus2

Good episode.
True. You have to also take into account that the subsystem you removed must not cause errors in the main program. If Kirito had done it wrong, he could have crashed the entire or at least some parts of SAO.

I doubt it would happen. Yui is probably a driver object that calls function from the framework. Deleting an driver would only remove a system task.

It's Kirito's speed typing bothers me. It's also bothers me that Gamemaster would delete Yui while the game is running. Deleting Yui(runtime or executable) would require the system pause, and it would kill everyone who logs on to the system.

[Dr. Casey]

Have you read any other of Kuwahara's stories? If you have then okay, but if not keep in mind that the Sword Art Online portion of this series was written in 2002; I wouldn't judge someone's present abilities by a 10 year old story.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Xacual

you don't need to have 20 episodes of character development to be attached to a character.

Bur for the level of drama the scene was going for it did need more development. More time not only to get to know Yui better, since there's little to know about her to begin with, being an AI and all, but more so to get into Asuna's attachment to her. To develop that attachment beyond the initial "she's cute, I want her as my daughter" thing.



@Dr Casey.
Yes, I'm reading his stuff. Well, SAO and AW. Don't know if he has done anything else...

[Xaturas]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Have you read any other of Kuwahara's stories? If you have then okay, but if not keep in mind that the Sword Art Online portion of this series was written in 2002; I wouldn't judge someone's present abilities by a 10 year old story.

And?
We are judging the thing we have at hand. Though I'm not complaining, people are giving valid points to back up their complaints.
You can't say something like " you know you can't complain that A is a shit, because it was Y years ago, now author made a B so A is not a shit anymore", how strange is that.
I don't want to judge, but for a 2-3 days of relationship, they already adopted her, and its just freaky. I know I know life and death situation, them getting married and getting some, but still.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Bur for the level of drama the scene was going for it did need more development. More time not only to get to know Yui better, since there's little to know about her to begin with, being an AI and all, but more so to get into Asuna's attachment to her.

Ehh... I can't really agree with that. I think both Kirito and Asuna's attachment to Yui made a lot of sense, particularly given the timing of the encounter in the midst of their blossoming relationship with each other (and the situation in the world around them). I didn't really think the emotional connection was surprising or lacking development, personally.

(Then again, I understand that some people need more time to get emotionally connected to characters than I do. It's not that hard for an anime to make me cry, or at least make me tense up out of empathy/sympathy... )

[Dr. Casey]

I uh don't think there's anything strange at all, there's nothing wrong with judging the story itself but judging someone's current ability based off a 10 year old story from when they were a new writer is a different matter

seems like common sense to me, not sure what the issue is here

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by orpheus2

GTrue. You have to also take into account that the subsystem you removed must not cause errors in the main program. If Kirito had done it wrong, he could have crashed the entire or at least some parts of SAO.

I am 100% certain that GMs don't have privileges at that level. As mentioned, they're basically underpaid grunts with no programming experience. They belong to the customer service department and the only training they have relates to customer service. They can spawn and despawn monsters, and do the same with items, but they can't change the programming.

Originally Posted by GundamZZ

I doubt it would happen. Yui is probably a driver object that calls function from the framework. Deleting an driver would only remove a system task.

It's Kirito's speed typing bothers me. It's also bothers me that Gamemaster would delete Yui while the game is running. Deleting Yui(runtime or executable) would require the system pause, and it would kill everyone who logs on to the system.

Yui's not a system. She's a game object. An npc. Deleting her doesn't require and reboot.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Clarste

ui's not a system. She's a game object. An npc.

She's a game object, but she also has admin privileges, so I wouldn't call her an npc. For me npc are more like monsters in human form, meaning they're bond to the rules of the game. Yui on the other hand has the power to break those rules (even if she had the pay the price for it).

Of course this is all irrelevant to the discussion you guys have going on so don't mind me.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

@Dr Casey.
Yes, I'm reading his stuff. Well, SAO and AW. Don't know if he has done anything else...

I see... your opinion differs from mine, Kazu, which means that it's wrong, but I respect it just the same. I've read that Kawuhara hones his skills a great deal across both Accel World and Sword Art Online, so hopefully you'll enjoy the stories progressively more as they go along.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, yeah, we have to assume that there must have been some sort of keyboard-controlled debug system that we just didn't see (visible through Kirito's NerveGear). And somehow, he could use that to find the program from the list of subsystems, convert it into an in-game object, and have the program download to his personal NerveGear's memory upon logout, within the time elapsed. If the options in the software exposed that functionality, then it may not have been all that hard to do. But he would have needed some sort of interface beyond what was shown.

Considering he knew the EXACT name of the program / subsystem he was looking for... I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy? Ctrl + F in a program list would probably narrow things down fairly easily? And again, we're dealing with a physical interface for poorly paid customer service grunts... I'd imagine it'd be a terribly easy interface to work with.

Occam's razor suggests that he likely simply copied Yui's programming code to his NervGEAR, and then spawned a physical item and gave it to Asuna. We technically didn't SEE the item's name in the standard in-game screen for every single other item of importance. Heck, he could have simply created an item, named it such, and downloaded Yui's code to his NervGEAR.

Also, why are you assuming the program is only downloaded at logout? Why create additional difficulty? Why not simply copy it over immediately?

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

She's a game object, but she also has admin privileges, so I wouldn't call her an npc. For me npc are more like monsters in human form, meaning they're bond to the rules of the game. Yui on the other hand has the power to break those rules

What... exactly are you basing this on?

She's basically locked out of 100% of system access, because she's totally incapable of doing the task she was created for (helping mentally unstable players). That doesn't sound much like 'having admin privileges' to me.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I see... your opinion differs from mine, Kazu, which means that it's wrong,

Please don't post the kind of thing, even if you're joking.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

so hopefully you'll enjoy the stories progressively more as they go along.

I do enjoy it (I said that before) but I'm not seeing much progress on his characters. If anything, he has become more formulaic as times goes. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it doesn't help characterization.

All this is off-topic though, so let's move on.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Adigard

What... exactly are you basing this on?

She's basically locked out of 100% of system access, because she's totally incapable of doing the task she was created for (helping mentally unstable players). That doesn't sound much like 'having admin privileges' to me.

She was ordered by Cardinal to not do her function but that doesn't take away that she had at least GM level powers necessary to do her job in the first place, she just didn't use them because she was told not to. Here she was damaged and it wasn't until she came in contact with the terminal that she knew what she could do and she wanted to help Asuna and Kirito so she disobeyed Cardinal's orders.