2009-06-28, 18:01 | Link #1321 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 48
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Blaaargh. Canīt sleep yet, because this stupid argument is still going on in my head.
Okay, Iīll concede both points, but not on the merit of the counterarguments, but because (as I realized while thinking about it because I couldnīt sleep <grmbl> ) pretty obviously they were plot devices to move said plot forward, by handing the characters in question the idiot ball, so Iīm shuffling off the blame to the writers. Ranka still is stupendously naive for the whole series, though. Quote:
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I said it above, itīs a classic example of the character getting handed an idiot ball, i.e. they need to do something tremendously stupid so that the plot can go on. Fault of the writers, so letīs move on. Okay, I hope now I can go to sleep. ^^
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2009-06-28, 18:32 | Link #1322 |
Lovestruck Fool
Fansubber
Join Date: Jan 2006
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A few quick points.
First, the "resolution" to the triangle is not exclusively a shipping concern. Michael spends a good part of the series trying to get Alto to come to terms with his feelings for both girls. Furthermore, I think it's fairly safe to say that the take home message of episode twenty (that you need to express your feelings to the people whom you care about, before it's too late) was specifically aimed at Alto. Without seeing Alto express what he really feels, it's unclear whether Michael's message had an impact on him or not. Even a polyamorous ending still requires Alto to actually come out and profess feelings to that effect. The ending isn't unresolved just because Alto doesn't make a choice regarding the triangle; it's unresolved because he doesn't even get to discuss his feelings with the girls. It's not that Alto strikes me as particularily wishy-washy, either. It's more that the story dodges the issue by ending when it does. *** Second, many of the complaints levelled against both Sheryl and Ranka have nothing to do with shipping in the first place, and the people who make them aren't necessarily fans of either girl (in fact, some don't like either girl - imagine that!) Everyone responds to events in the story in a different context. As an example, a number of people took issue with Sheryl over the birthday present incident, thinking that it was intentional. While some of these people were Ranka fans who understandably ended up feeling that Ranka had been mistreated by Sheryl throughout episodes 8-11, there's a few Sheryl fans who interpreted things the same way by drawing on personal experiences. Likewise, while some Sheryl fans understandably reacted negatively to Ranka's actions in episode twenty from the context of Sheryl's suffering over the previous episodes, there are a few Ranka fans who responded in similar fashion because her actions were at odds with their system of values regarding duty and responsibility. On their own, none of these perspectives are problematic. But when people start to imply that these critiques are motivated by shipping (which, mind you, is often valid, but just as often isn't), things become unnecessarily bloody. In short, the solution isn't to make a thoughtcrime out of venting out at the characters, but rather to take each post on an individual basis. *** Aside: If someone is willing to let other fans decide his/her favorite characters for him/her, he/she probably wasn't all that much of a fan of the characters to begin with. Also, every fanbase has a history. Some arguments really have been done to death here, to the point that they've become memes. It can be difficult for someone freshly viewing these comments to understand why they get brushed-off (because they view it from a different context). This is a communication problem that I notice regularly, and it may be responsible for some of these misunderstandings. |
2009-06-28, 18:44 | Link #1323 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 48
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I wanted to point out that this is why I love Swampys posts so much. He puts in words what I am thinking better than I myself can. Good storytelling involves not putting out plot points which are later ignored. Ending the series before Alto gets to talk with the girls is exactly why I define the romance non-resolution as bad storytelling. As for the rest, all excellent points.
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2009-06-28, 19:19 | Link #1324 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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As far as Ranka being unfairly criticized for things the others get a pass on, I think people need to consider the consequences of the choices she makes. The rest of the kids may do stupid things, but they never impact anyone but themselves. Sheryl jumping off the roof in order to catch her panties might be "objectively" looked at as being just as dumb as keeping an innocuous-looking alien, but the point is that Sheryl going splat on the pavement is a personal risk, while Ranka is keeping something that could carry disease or be dangerous to the population at large.
Many of her worst decisions are like this, with further-reaching effects than her own discomfort or pain. I never disliked Ranka, but I also think that a lot of the criticism she gets isn't without merit, as it shows that she is a character with a severe lack of empathy for other people. As teenagers that age can be self-absorbed, I personally, don't think it's a deal breaker when it comes to liking her, but I can see why others would be put off by it. Especially when the other characters consistently put others before themselves in similar situations. (Sheryl, choosing to sing for the sake of Frontier even though it could mean her death. Alto, choosing the safety of the people in his home colony over "saving Ranka", if it comes down to that.) Quote:
Basically, the ending comes across as a cop out because so much of the story has focused around the idea of choosing one or the other. Choosing neither is a betrayal of the time spent on that aspect of the plot, because it means there was ultimately no point to the triangle in the first place.
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2009-06-28, 19:38 | Link #1325 | |
Professional Lurker
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NS, Canada
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I'm not saying it was the right decision, just that it's not one which Ranka alone is guilty of, yet her name is usually the only one mentioned, or this is pointed out as her failing alone, and other characters guilty of exactly the same thing don't receive equal criticism. Anyway, it's clear that I'm not really going to make any sort of impact here, so I'm ready to put this debate to rest. My point wasn't to 'win over people to the Ranka side', I'm actually neutral in regards to the triangle. Sheryl is a good character. Ranka is a good character. Everyone is welcome to their favourites. |
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2009-06-28, 19:56 | Link #1326 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
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@Snowblind
Well i have similar viewpoint like yours in regard to ai-kun...that's why I create my signature so I don't have to rewrite my viewpoint over and over again and like how I just replied in a pm message, I hope Bobby will say the following line "Who says Alto can only get 1 girl, it's polygamy here", so Alto takes Ranka and Sheryl, Bobby takes Ozma and Cathy, Beresa(sp) takes ai-kun.. then everyone will live happily ever after, and peace will come to this forum once and for all
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2009-06-28, 21:15 | Link #1328 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
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And Bleach OD was haunting some Bleach Forum and made a Ranka Fan club with got like 3 members. In this case his almost fanatic hatred of Sheryl may have scared people away from liking Ranka. Which brings us to another fact, I've actually seen many a Macross viewers who though the don't post in Macross forums, and yet outright dislike Ranka, and not be fans of Sheryl. The same goes for a lot of people who watched and reviewed the series after it ended, or are just not apart of the Macross community. You want an example look no further than the least favorite character poll that was here a while back, most of the people who voted for Ranka don't even post in the Macoss section, in fact most of the people who actually post in the Macoss section voted for "he who must not be named" from That Series (I hate said series with a undying passion). I think that one of reasons why Ranka lacks staying power is because she's just Moe, and while that does guarantee popularity it won't last. They need to have something else to grab and keep those fans, and that something cannot be more moe, it has to be something that sets them apart from the other moeblobs. Unfortunately for Ranka she lacks that, I mean even comparing her to CCS's Sakura or NANOHA's Nanoha and Fate. Sure Ranka is a sweet kid, but that's a given for a moe character, its one thing for a character to be moe inside of the show, and for everyone to want to protect her, but at the same time you've got to give them time to grow, you can't coddle them all the time. Which may be why people want her to actually face the consequences of her decisions so that they can actually sympathize with her, have a reason to cheer her on, and end up liking her.Which now that I think about it may have one of the very reason for the shift in episodes 18-24, they may have noticed Sheryl had something that Ranka lacked; Staying power, all Sheryl was the right push. Also the reason why Lacus's move seems less, spontaneous and more thought than Ranka's position are that 1) Their circumstances were totally different: Lacus's father had been assassinated, and she was labeled as a wanted criminal by her homeland. Lacus had no where else to go she had to run away otherwise they would kill her. granted Ranka after running away from performing her duty as the songstress of hope for Frontier, and seeing her pet Vajra evolve into the very same type of creature that just killed her crush's best friend before her eyes, decided that she wanted to stop the war between Frontier and the Vajra. 2)The timing in which they decided to leave: While we don't know exactly how long Lacus had been branded a traitor she didn't leave PLANT until she also until she could stole the Eternal, PLANT's most advanced battle ship, and assembled a crew of veterans to help man it. And then made her ex-fiance (one of PLANT's most powerful soldiers) second-guess his position as an soldier for PLANT. Lacus obviously waited. Ranka decided she wanted to left in a few hours, after she announced she wanted to leave. 3)What they left with: Lacus left with PLANT's most powerful ship, full of veterans that were loyal to her, and her cause. While Ranka left with Brera, his VF-27 and Ai-kun 4) Who they got to help them along the way: Lacus met up with Archangel (and its experienced crew along with Dearka and Mu La Flaga (which held two gundams) and Kira(the ultimate coordinator) who had Freedom(one of the two the most powerful mobile suit), Athrun (the most powerful PLANT soldier) who had Justice(the other most powerful mobile suit), along with the entire ORB Fleet with with Kusanagi and their soldiers. The reason why the ORB fleet wasn't shown off was simple no named characters were on those ships. Ranka didn't meet anyone to help her along the way. 5) Hostility of the enemy: If my memory serves me well, PLANT was actually reluctant to attack them, and some of the soldiers even defected to Lacus's side. They really only had a problem with the Earth Alliance. The Vajra have a hive mind, all they they need to do is to see Ranka as a threat and they won't hesitate to kill her, or whatever have you. Which they did. 6) Did they need to be saved from a outside force: Lacus once she got going didn't need to be saved, in fact she was calling the shots. Ranka was used as a pawn by Grace, and the Galaxy. So yeah two situations shouldn't really be compared as it just makes Ranka look stupid. |
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2009-06-28, 21:30 | Link #1329 | ||
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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My point? There are idiots on all sides. Quote:
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2009-06-28, 22:28 | Link #1330 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
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Exactly my point, the stupidity isn't limited to just Sheryl fans. There is unfortunately plenty of stupid to go around ( I used to be a narutofan, I would know). Though in my experience the best way to deal with them is to just ignore them in other words Don't feed the Troll.
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Thing is I really want to cheer for Ranka, I really want to see her grow up as a character, and be more than just another moe character, though right its kinda hard. So a lot of what I say is my wishful thinking for her, because we all know she's got the potential. |
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2009-06-28, 22:50 | Link #1331 | |
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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Hmmm. Yeah, I never put a whole lot of stock in the polls, so I haven't been checking them out. Is ranka even still on this list? If so, how many votes did she get? How many votes did Sheryl get? |
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2009-06-28, 22:58 | Link #1332 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
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That's actually the same rationale I use for Ranka, ironically. Though to extend it further it is stupid to hate a character just because you feel that they somehow get in the way of their OTP, and not because of their personality, behavior, or actions, through the course of the story.
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2009-06-28, 23:10 | Link #1333 |
C.C. & Sheryl worshipper
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Ooops, for (many) seconds I thought this was the Favorite character Thread
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2009-06-28, 23:23 | Link #1334 | |
Minmay Guard
Join Date: May 2009
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So, who's seen Eva 2.0 yet? Frontier's trailer is supposed to be attached to that, I think. |
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2009-06-28, 23:46 | Link #1335 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
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Spoiler for For Size:
Last edited by wisteria233; 2009-06-30 at 06:49. |
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2009-06-29, 00:03 | Link #1336 | |
Izanami
Graphic Designer
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I am sooo loving that poster <3
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2009-06-29, 03:20 | Link #1337 | ||
Lets be reality
Join Date: May 2007
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Last edited by Westlo; 2009-06-29 at 03:33. |
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2009-06-29, 03:35 | Link #1338 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 48
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Newtype: December: Sheryl: #2 - Ranka: not listed January: Sheryl: #5 - Ranka: not listed March: Sheryl: #1 - Ranka: #3 April: Sheryl: #5 - Ranka: #10 May: Sheryl: #4 - Ranka: not listed June: Sheryl: #6 - Ranka: not listed July: Sheryl: #6 - Ranka: not listed Kinda speaks for itself, although Iīd really like to know to what the popularity surge in March and April was due. As for the other magazines, you have to ask Tak and Westlo, who are the people whoīd know more about this than me.
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Last edited by magnuskn; 2009-06-29 at 04:00. Reason: Bleh, why doesnīt the TAB key work here? -.- |
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2009-06-29, 08:07 | Link #1339 |
Izanami
Graphic Designer
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Fresh INFO from a Japanese fan (yes, he used machine translation but I totally adore him!):
I have seen EVANGERION:02 today. There was trailer of MacrossF before screening this volume. BANDAI is a sponsor of EVANGERION and MACROSS. BGM of the trailer were "Pink Monsoon" and "Sagittarius☆9:00PM Don't be late". Pink Monsoon is a new one, and Sheryl's debut album title tune. For me, the works of KAN-NO Yoko are the enjoyment. from here
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