[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Klarth]

Sorry if this has already been stated,
But has it been considered that Erika's body does wash up on the first four arcs, and is sometimes used to fake a death? (E.G. Shannon's corpse in EP1)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Klarth

Sorry if this has already been stated,
But has it been considered that Erika's body does wash up on the first four arcs, and is sometimes used to fake a death? (E.G. Shannon's corpse in EP1)

It's been thought of, however...

She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.

That kind of kills it, because arguing that what you're saying doesn't influence the previous games leads to circular arguments. Best to take this red as it is.

[Renall]

No one has any reason to go to whatever shore Erika is on by the time she would wash up on the island. As far as we know, nobody has the reason or inclination to go searching the beaches in the rain. Erika only comes to anyone's attention when alive because she wanders into the rose garden and meets Maria. If she doesn't do that, then I can't see any reason she'd ever be found by anyone.

[Suikami]

I love Renall's theory, however one thing catches me that I'd like clearing up, first...

For Battlertrice to be the culprit the major closed room scenario from an earlier episode (I'm half asleep so I might be a little vague) would need a logical explanation. Battler's theory was that the closed room murder scenario was created and only truly became one when the culprit had some form of accident which led to their own demise which, in turn, creates the final locked room that creates the major scenario.

If Battlertrice was actually the culprit, how would that work? He would have actually have died, and not just the personality, the body would have to have been unable to do anything, but rather be a corpse. We, however, are aware that Battler's body wasn't a corpse at that time and thus he couldn't have created at least the elaborate closed room murder scenario.

Unless this has already been tackled to support Renall's theory, could I have an explanation that backs the theory? Otherwise I'll be unable to actually understand it correctly. =\

[Renall]

Well Battlertrice is impossible in the sense that too many killings happen while Battler himself is awake, conscious, and in his "Ushiromiya Battler" persona. He can't be off committing murders if he himself is present and being watched.

However, I guess he could set up the endgame event, or Battlertrice during the first night (where he's never awake anyway) and organize all the events of the next day.

It's a pretty silly theory. I wouldn't look too hard at how to make it work. It's mostly an exercise in the danger of personality death as an option, similar to Kinzotrice but even more ridiculous.

[Jaden]

I agree that multiple personalities and personality death would be just lame devices in a mystery, and I hope the truth doesn't involve them...

But this episode has all that red text which forces me to accept those theories. How else to escape a closed room without tripping the seals? How else to disappear? It's kind of like the chapel and the letters in episode 2, except those can also be "solved" by suspecting everyone.

My problem is that I'm only looking at the closed room mysteries. They're just the most fascinating part about Umineko. I've actually gone and reread only the parts concerning the closed rooms. All of them have solutions that deny the witch, but none of them have solutions that make sense. You can't even get close to the truth by only looking at the closed rooms.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jaden

But this episode has all that red text which forces me to accept those theories. How else to escape a closed room without tripping the seals? How else to disappear?

Not be there, never exist in the first place, or cease existing. This calculus doesn't actually change regardless of theory; personality death is just a way of suggesting a possible cessation of existence. The other, and I think more plausible one is to physically die. There are certainly various ways to escape non-specific location checks, though most of them are tricky.

[Jaden]

I suppose. Going in the closet and somehow dying, it's easier to accept than the whole crossdressing nonsense. But either way all you have is a theory that's effective against the red, not a theory that makes sense.

Another very REDstricted murder is the halloween chapel massacre in episode 2. Does anyone have any good insights for that? Disregarding Battler's small bombs blue, I have two effective theories... The first is an implausible one, the second is a cheap shot.

1: People including at least Rosa, Shannon and whoever gave maria the key are conspiring to make the chapel look locked when it isn't.

2: Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands, but Beatrice was earlier unwilling to repeat that "the key was not used" during that time. Therefore the key was used in some way that avoids the condition of "passing through someone's hands". Like this just about anyone could be the culprit.

[Leafsnail]

I don't think your option one is too silly, actually - I mean, Rosa is likely to be involved in the FFT, so she might just not have realised it had gone wrong (perhaps she'd expect Nanjo to ring alarm bells if it had). This could explain quite a few illogical actions, actually - if Rosa didn't realise the chapel murders were real, the first killing that was confirmed for her was the fourth twilight (when Battler pulled the stake straight out of Shannon's face... in fact, I'd actually say this is the biggest barrier to Shkannon culprit theory. Personality death won't get you out of a stab to the brain).

By the way, I'm having a slight problem with the stakes.

Kanon dies in the boiler room in episode 1. This death is basically confirmed to be fake by the red text. He dies to "the stake of satan".

Natsuhi also gets the "stake of satan" rammed into her in episode 3... but this time it's confirmed to be real (Jessica pulls it straight out). I'd therefore suggest there aren't 7 unique stakes at all, but that there are a bunch of generics with some fakes. Or the witch's game record is just bullshitting again...

[mstrchef117]

So, I just finished Episode6. A few questions though if you guys could be kind enough to explain to me

Spoiler for Umineko EP 6:

The scenes with Featherine, did Ange(1998) read about herself meeting a witch, like tohya actually wrote her into the tale or the "meta"-world scenes actually happen. Also, I hear about all this talk about Shkanon/Shkannontrice being confirmed by EP 6, how though? You see them all as seperate entities even during the "duel" And if they were the same person, how the hell does the ending wedding wor?. Pardon my ignorance since I discovered this series quite late and missed most of the debate and speculation that took place, could some explain to me the Shkanon, Skhkanontrice, Jessicatrice, smart battle, Pony-theory, and for some reason, I also heard of Jessica is Battler theories?

Btw, what the hell is moon-chan?

Thanks for clarifying things.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by mstrchef117

The scenes with Featherine, did Ange(1998) read about herself meeting a witch, like tohya actually wrote her into the tale or the "meta"-world scenes actually happen.

Apparently so, since Ange told Featherine not to kill her in gruesome ways again.

Originally Posted by mstrchef117

Also, I hear about all this talk about Shkanon/Shkannontrice being confirmed by EP 6, how though? You see them all as seperate entities even during the "duel"

The detective (POV) never sees them together, and the fact they say only one of them can love sort of point it out. As for the duel, that's Meta, anything can happen there.

Originally Posted by mstrchef117

And if they were the same person, how the hell does the ending wedding wor?.

Happy End in the Meta.

Originally Posted by mstrchef117

Pardon my ignorance since I discovered this series quite late and missed most of the debate and speculation that took place, could some explain to me the Shkanon, Skhkanontrice, Jessicatrice, smart battle, Pony-theory, and for some reason, I also heard of Jessica is Battler theories?

Btw, what the hell is moon-chan?

• Shkanon: Shannon = Kanon
• Shkanontrice: Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice
• Jessitrice: Jessica = Beatrice
• I haven't heard of "smart battle". Unless you mean Smart Battler, which is the theory that says EP6 went according to BATTLER's plans.
• Pony Theory: It's the theory that says that Battler's sin was related to the promise of returning to Shannon in a white horse. It also says the person who got the promise wasn't Shannon, but a human Beatrice.
• Jessica=Battler: It refers to the other Battler. Many people find it odd that after 12-15 of being able to conceive Natsuhi was suddenly able to. This is the same year Battler was born, and EP4 hinted the possible existence of another Battler.
• Moon-chan: It's the theory that says Jessica is the culprit.

[Judoh]

Btw, what the hell is moon-chan?

The Tarot card studio DEEN made Jessica was the moon, which represents deceptions and illusions (sometimes for yourself not others). Kanon also calls Beatrice the moon using a parable in episode 2.

So basically Moon chan became a nickname for Jessica on 4chan because of that. It also helped connect her as Beatrice in a silly way.

But nobody uses that nickname here...

[Leafsnail]

If they're the same person, they'd be seperate meta entities, provided their secret isn't revealed (in the same way Kinzo exists as an entity for the first 5 episodes).

There's also the whole "Shannon has a perfect memory" thing... I mean, Jessica would just forget about such a promise, wouldn't she?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

There's also the whole "Shannon has a perfect memory" thing... I mean, Jessica would just forget about such a promise, wouldn't she?

That's George that says she has a good memory. Do you really trust HIM?

For Jessica we don't have enough info to be sure.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

There's also the whole "Shannon has a perfect memory" thing... I mean, Jessica would just forget about such a promise, wouldn't she?

A definite tsundere, forget about being slighted?

[LuckySovietStar]

If I remember correctly, in EP2, after George "saves her", Shannon is said to not pay attention when talking with people; she don't listen to them really, and just nods to be polite, but don't give a fuck about conversation. It changes when she starts caring about George. Which is also indirect hint about how much she cared about Battler.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Judoh

That's George that says she has a good memory. Do you really trust HIM?

For Jessica we don't have enough info to be sure.

She does quote several of Battler's phrases word for word 6 years after he said them?

For Jessica... I dunno. If she did remember, she'd surely be more likely to punch Battler in the face the moment he got off the boat ("This is for forgetting, you creep!").

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I suppose. Going in the closet and somehow dying, it's easier to accept than the whole crossdressing nonsense. But either way all you have is a theory that's effective against the red, not a theory that makes sense.

Another very REDstricted murder is the halloween chapel massacre in episode 2. Does anyone have any good insights for that? Disregarding Battler's small bombs blue, I have two effective theories... The first is an implausible one, the second is a cheap shot.

1: People including at least Rosa, Shannon and whoever gave maria the key are conspiring to make the chapel look locked when it isn't.

2: Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands, but Beatrice was earlier unwilling to repeat that "the key was not used" during that time. Therefore the key was used in some way that avoids the condition of "passing through someone's hands". Like this just about anyone could be the culprit.

Well, for EP 6, I find it disappointing that they never used Kanon's real name, Yoshiya, as a part of the answer. You would think that after that "Kanon = George" theory, Erika would've went straight to using "Yoshiya" as a tool in a name trick... Oh well, anyways, my theory are that Kanon- kun was able to leave because Kanon never existed in that room. As for how he did not exist in the guest room, it was only referring to the name Kanon in that particular subject, so it can be said that, at that point, the name Yoshiya became Kanon's new identity and Yoshiya is still in that room.

As for EP 2, it is never denied that Rosa herself used the key. Thus it is possible that she locked and unlocked the door herself.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

She does quote several of Battler's phrases word for word 6 years after he said them?

She quoted Several? No just one. She said she remembered other things that happened, but the person in question didn't want to remember them. She might have a good memory, but it's definitely not perfect if you consider her blunders as a servant.

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

*snip*

The whole point of the everyone else red is that with a few exceptions everyone else is in cousin's room. Since no one is specifically named it doesn't matter whether Kanon's name is Yoshiya or not everyone not specifically named is in that room at the time that red was declared. The name Yoshiya does not escape that.

Whether not he is there afterward is debatable though.

[Disz]

I think George and Jessica did it. :<

Just a thought.


I should probably check it out.

Oh,and I'm never getting off Georges ass.Ever hear his character song?
Yeah,you heard that evil laugh.