[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Uberzaki]

Does KNM ever actually give a substantial reason for Ryukishi's attributed deception?

It's fun to think about other possibilities and all, but I think saying Shkanontrice is wrong is missing the point of the story a bit. I personally prefer to look at it as either Shkanontrice isn't the only solution, or is only part of our solution, I'm sure a lot of you think it's wrong to think of it as entirely false, since we get two whole later chapters setting it up.

Just my two cents.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by Uberzaki

Does KNM ever actually give a substantial reason for Ryukishi's attributed deception?

It's fun to think about other possibilities and all, but I think saying Shkanontrice is wrong is missing the point of the story a bit. I personally prefer to look at it as either Shkanontrice isn't the only solution, or is only part of our solution, I'm sure a lot of you think it's wrong to think of it as entirely false, since we get two whole later chapters setting it up.

Just my two cents.

He gives two things that I can remember off the top of my head. One I discussed earlier with the third story. The other one is how Ryukishi says that he wants to protect the people who reached the truth which is why he didn't reveal the culprit at the end. Him confirming Shkanon seems to contradict what he says earlier in the interview.

TBH I could except Shkanon as a lie but as far as it goes it fits all the puzzles the best. Well not the best but better than Rosatrice...

Going back to what Cronotrig said a few pages back, just because someone is suspicious doesn't mean they are the killer. Rosa is pretty suspicious based on the things that Kiltias brought up but the theory is still ultimately flawed.

So guys we should replace Rosatrice with Gohdatrice.

Episode 1: Gohda fakes his death with the help of Nanjo

Episode 2: Small bombs first twilight, kills Jessica and hides kanon's body second twilight, suggests to the other servants that Rosa is the killer and they should fake Nanjo and Kumasawa's death to fool her. After George is kicked out he kills them all. The Letter was in the room the whole time Battler was just too incompetent as a detective to notice it.

Episode 3: Gohda fakes his death, Gohda died but the Magical Chef didn't

Episode 4: He escapes the shed with the help on Nanjo. Kills everyone goes back into the shed with Maria, gives Maria the key and tells her to lock it and to go back inside to where there is a drink left for her and she will meet Beatrice if she drinks it. Maria goes back inside and drinks the poison left by Gohda and dies. Gohda suicides with a gun and string trick.

Gohda's motive is he was tired of all the servants messing with him with a stupid witch and leaving him out of there super secret things so he decided to make a murder mystery and he decided to make Battler the detective cause he heard from Shannon whining about Battler not coming back that he liked detective fiction so it made sense.

To get past the logic Error in EP6, Gohda fed Kanon a small bomb and he slipped out the window after Battler announced his location. Kanon saved Battler then hid in the closet. Gohda then activates the Small bombs kill Kanon.

GG

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Kiltias

I have right in front of me.Don't give me it's incorrect.

Of all the people in the dining hall, not one of them left the dining hall until 1:00 AM...!
During the short break at 1:00 AM, the first two to leave the dining hall were Rosa and Eva. Until Eva returned, everyone in the dining hall remained there.

Mind you, these times have to be approximate - Rosa can't have left the mansion at exactly 1:00am and ALSO run into Erika in the guesthouse at exactly 1:00am. But she definitely didn't leave the dining hall until way after the letter/knock incident had happened.

Originally Posted by Kiltias

Manga.
Same one where Maria draws 6 people into the sand when the 9th Twilight was brought on the Beach by Battler..Natsuhi,Battler,Maria and Rosa are clearly visibly drawn by Maria.The other 2 remained unfinished yet shortly before its indicated Maria drew 2 tiny circles into someones face when the others had dots as eyes.
Followed by:
"Everyone dies noone survive" and a wave destroys the drawing at the same time that was said.

Just checked that out. I really need to read through the manga at some point. Even if they aren't important, it's cool how they communicate visually where the VN had pages and pages of text ... I mean, I glanced at the chapter where Erika tried to explain the knock/letter, and it's a WAY harsher scene in the manga, from both Cornelia being punished to Erika being humiliated.

Originally Posted by Uberzaki

Does KNM ever actually give a substantial reason for Ryukishi's attributed deception?

It's fun to think about other possibilities and all, but I think saying Shkanontrice is wrong is missing the point of the story a bit. I personally prefer to look at it as either Shkanontrice isn't the only solution, or is only part of our solution, I'm sure a lot of you think it's wrong to think of it as entirely false, since we get two whole later chapters setting it up.

Just my two cents.

Mmm, it's something like "Umineko is a story ALL ABOUT deceiving the readers.", and it fitting his idea that Shkanon is silly and ruins everything.

And yeah, almost everyone on this board pretty much accepts Shkanon as the intended solution, even if we don't exactly like it.

[Drifloon]

The other one is how Ryukishi says that he wants to protect the people who reached the truth which is why he didn't reveal the culprit at the end. Him confirming Shkanon seems to contradict what he says earlier in the interview.

Well, this only applies if you assume that the Prime culprit and the gameboard culprit are the same person. And I'm not sure why so many people assume that. Considering that the interview was done just after EP8 came out, I'm pretty sure Ryukishi was talking about how he left everything ambiguous regarding Prime, rather than that he never wanted to reveal the truth of the gameboard.

That said, he hasn't actually ever said that Shannon and Kanon are the same person in any interview AFAIK. He's certainly confirmed Shannon culprit, but he seems to leave the multiple personalities thing alone from what I've seen. Of course, read between the lines etc, but I don't think he's ever flat out stated it.

[Wanderer]

I just realized a (the?) solution to Erika's "18th human" line at the end of EP6. I'm surprised I hadn't thought of it earlier, because it fits perfectly with ShKanon Replacement Theory.

It's about the "th" in "18th". The game has had 17 people other than Erika, making her the 18th person. However, the game actually only has 16 people other than Erika, making the total, with Erika included, 17.

[Renall]

Well, it's not that difficult a linguistic trick.

Neil Armstrong is the first man on the moon.
There are no men on the moon.

Both of these statements are after all true; Neil Armstrong didn't stay there.

There is still some questionableness to it though. Who is the 17th person "on Rokkenjima?" Are we counting characters or what? Because allegedly Kinzo is dead before the start of the games, and there have probably been more than 18 people total on Rokkenjima in all of history (the soldiers and Italians, other servants, visitors, etc.).

[GabrieliosP]

Wasn't Rokkenjima only named Rokkenjima AFTER Kinzo bought it? That would invalidate the soldiers and italians. Then again, there were the workers who built the mansion too.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

It really seems an inner monologue between chosing if doing something and just letting things as they are but, with the implication that doing something maybe will give Shannon's George's love but it'll also will cause lot of troubles.

The following parts are also interesting.

Shannon gets to be with George and be happy thanks to Beato but then Beato confesses she did it only on a whim and with the purpose to tear them apart.

If we consider Beato and Shannon are the same person it means more or less than Yasu longed for love (confirmed by Ep 7 in which she says it doesn't matter where it is as long as she's welcomed and loved) so she tried to have it with George because she had the chance to pursue it however she didn't really plan for a long term relation possibly also because she believed a long term relation would work as Kanon insists. In fact he too confesses he would like to pursue love but refuses to believe it oculd work.

So in other words, Yasu's main goal was simply "to go out with someone", not to find a future marriage partner. Not that she wasn't interested in having a deeper relationship, but she wasn't confident that anyone would want her, if they knew everything about her.

And in fact, in both cases, it was the other person who pushed for their relationship to become stronger. We never see Shannon pushing for any commitment beyond a few dates and hugging (George is very forceful when he proposes to her, and her immediate reaction is to try to back out of it by calling herself furniture) and Jessica is the one who pushes Kanon to "create a new self" and presumably go out with her (and Kanon successfully backs out of it with the furniture excuse). In both cases, Jessica and George are so serious that they initially ignore the furniture excuse, with Jessica getting emotional and George sort of brushing it aside.

Spoiler for Sidenote: translation error correction: please read:

In the beginning of EP2, in a cafe or something sometime before the final family conference, George says this line to Shannon:
"...Now, I will have a ring made that's appropriate to give to you. I think I'll probably bring it to the family conference coming up soon. I'll give it to you then, so please, I want you to let me hear your answer."

It should be something more like this (corrected for content, not for sounding weird):
"...Right now, I'm having a ring made that's appropriate to give to you. It'll probably be ready in time for the upcoming family conference. I'll give it to you then, so please, I want you to let me hear your answer."

...The difference being that George had already started having the ring made before telling Shannon that he had any intention of marrying her, and that the family conference probably isn't too far off.

[Drifloon]

It would really be nice if you could update the patch some time to include these improved translations. Especially the ones regarding the wording of reds, like the 'gunshot wounds that became fatal' thing.

[Valkama]

My gut reaction to the 18th person problem is that Kinzo is one of the people who was on the island but is no longer there. However if we consider 18th as being the 18th person to arrive since the games start, the boat captain was on the island at the start but then left. However this is probably not what Ryukishi intended but it's definitely a solution.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Valkama

My gut reaction to the 18th person problem is that Kinzo is one of the people who was on the island but is no longer there. However if we consider 18th as being the 18th person to arrive since the games start, the boat captain was on the island at the start but then left. However this is probably not what Ryukishi intended but it's definitely a solution.

Did he ever leave the boat? If you're on a boat in the water at a dock on the island are you in fact a visitor on Rokkenjima?

Stupid Beatrice and her vague definitions and flighty reds like "on Rokkenjima."

[Wanderer]

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume "18th human on Rokkenjima" means the "18th human participating in the game". An interpretation of the statement to mean the "18th human on Rokkenjima ever" is clearly quite absurd, not to mention demonstrably false. The statement can't even include one more person, like Kinzo or Kawabata, or the number would be different.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume "18th human on Rokkenjima" means the "18th human participating in the game". An interpretation of the statement to mean the "18th human on Rokkenjima ever" is clearly quite absurd, not to mention demonstrably false. The statement can't even include one more person, like Kinzo or Kawabata, or the number would be different.

But Kinzo never participates in the game as a human.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

But Kinzo never participates in the game as a human.

Did you think I was suggesting that he does? I wasn't.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

So in other words, Yasu's main goal was simply "to go out with someone", not to find a future marriage partner. Not that she wasn't interested in having a deeper relationship, but she wasn't confident that anyone would want her, if they knew everything about her.

And in fact, in both cases, it was the other person who pushed for their relationship to become stronger. We never see Shannon pushing for any commitment beyond a few dates and hugging (George is very forceful when he proposes to her, and her immediate reaction is to try to back out of it by calling herself furniture) and Jessica is the one who pushes Kanon to "create a new self" and presumably go out with her (and Kanon successfully backs out of it with the furniture excuse). In both cases, Jessica and George are so serious that they initially ignore the furniture excuse, with Jessica getting emotional and George sort of brushing it aside.

Yes, more or less.

Shannon, like Jessica, likely wanted a boyfriend. Differently from her however she wished even more for a person who would love her and accept her due to her background. Technically it could very well be that she wanted more to be loved than to love. However, as soon as she finds the truth about her body she becomes 'furniture', something unable to be loved.

This makes even harder for her, someone who's deemed below by nearly everyone around her (Jessica and George excluded) to really believe in a happy ending, at the same time she doesn't really want to give up hope and yet she doesn't seem to trust things to have a chance to go fully well.

Honestly, I'm not sure she had the guts to leave with George if Battler hadn't come back so I think it's possible she would have accepted George's ring and then faked her suicide or something.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for Sidenote: translation error correction: please read:

In the beginning of EP2, in a cafe or something sometime before the final family conference, George says this line to Shannon:
"...Now, I will have a ring made that's appropriate to give to you. I think I'll probably bring it to the family conference coming up soon. I'll give it to you then, so please, I want you to let me hear your answer."

It should be something more like this (corrected for content, not for sounding weird):
"...Right now, I'm having a ring made that's appropriate to give to you. It'll probably be ready in time for the upcoming family conference. I'll give it to you then, so please, I want you to let me hear your answer."

...The difference being that George had already started having the ring made before telling Shannon that he had any intention of marrying her, and that the family conference probably isn't too far off.

Thank you for the corrections!

George is a pretty pushing guy. Personally I can't say I liked him much through all Umineko...

[GuestSpeaker]

The Japanese was Beatrice wa "i"ru (ベアトリーチェは”い”る).
In Japanese there is a distinction between existing as an object or concept (ある=aru) and existing as a being (いる=iru), so by marking it "i"ru it is less a question of whether Beatrice exists in general terms but rather being vague about whether she exists as a being or simply as an object or concept on the island.

See, I figured that the ' ' was meant to add that sort of unclear effect (even without the two meanings of exist, we do play that game in English as well) but I guess they left it in to be ambiguous. Unless Maria has some views on Beatrice and her controlling of Shannon I don't know about, you'd think she would just straight up say Beatrice exists as a person.


As for the 18th thing, that's really clever. Logic dictates (wait, in Umineko? I must be mad) that the other person must be Kinzo. I think by mere virtue of the fact he has been acknowledged to have been a human character in the game (even if he was never truly alive) for so long, that it is accepted he can be referred to as one of the humans. If you like, consider Erika the 18th human piece to be played upon the board of those two days (otherwise we would have to count all the Beatrii). She and Kinzo may never have existed during those two days, but they were the human pieces.




And yeah, the manga made the humiliation of Erika much harsher, it is one of the (rather weak) basis by which I assume Bern knew more than she let on. She AND Lambda are both sitting in their high and mighty chairs, laughing at Erika failing in her duties. At the least I think it implies Bern was less interested in seriously solving the puzzles and more interested in seriously messing with Erika.

[Valkama]

Here is something interesting that could really just dig Rosatrice a grave.

Maria says: George onii-chan couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a kid though. Purple statements are as absolute as red truths. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements. We know Maria can't be the culprit as the culprit needs two parents and Maria happens to only have one. So this statement is an absolute truth about George. George can't kill adults so he couldn't have killed Rosa in the third game or done any of the other crimes in the third game. Nanjo is not a killer so he couldn't have done any of it either. He also couldn't have killed Gohda in Natsuhi's room in the 2nd game or Nanjo and Kumasawa.

[Drifloon]

Bern's game is an entirely different scenario, though. It would be pretty silly to use any information from that and apply it to Beatrice's games.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Bern's game is an entirely different scenario, though. It would be pretty silly to use any information from that and apply it to Beatrice's games.

The statement isn't about the game though, it's about the character George himself.

[Drifloon]

Yes, in the context of a game where the characters' personalities have been messed with by Bern.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in a George culprit theory either, but Maria's purple statement about him doesn't mean anything more than Battler, Rudolf and Kyrie laughing maniacally as they kill George and Maria in the same game. Pieces' roles can change from game to game.