Learning Japanese

[Mystique]

*remembers terms from Trinity Blood*

If you have that anime around, glance over it, since they are based at the Vatican and all
神父 【しんぷ】 (n) Catholic priest, abbe, (P)

So 'shinpu-sama' is a possible title, though tbh, I'm kinda semi curious myself about regular suffixes for ministers. Probably depends on the branch of Christianity you're dealing with anyways

[Tri-ring]

To my knowledge which is limited within thiss field but the names for Christian titles are as follows;

教皇 (Kyoko)　　 Pope
枢機卿 (Suukikei) Cardinal
司教　(Shikyo) Bishop
神父　(Shinpu) Father or padre
尼　　(Ama) Nun

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Kyuusai

Two questions from me today!

Firstly:
The greatest lack I find in Japanese dictionaries is the lack of pitch notation. So much effort in memorization is utterly wasted when I must re-memorize--or when I simply don't recognize--a word because I've previously only encountered it in text (and therefore do not know the proper pitch for each syllable).

Are there any Japanese dictionaries that contain pitch notation? I am not necessarily looking for anything written for English-speakers (I'm pretty sure there is no such thing, as I've only found one textbook's vocabulary sections aside). A native Japanese dictionary is fine, if such a thing exists.

Secondly:
I'm curious as to what titles or honorifics might be used to refer to and address religious ministers in Japan. Since I'll be working with Christian ministers in Japan, I'm most curious about Japanese terms appropriate in such context (in English we would generally use "Brother"/"Sister" or "Reverend", except for church leaders who are addressed according to office, ie "Pastor", and Catholic priests who are addressed as "Father"), but I'd also be interested in knowing what is appropriate for ministers of other religions active in Japan.

Why am I picturing a church meeting with a bunch of people calling each other "onichan" and "oneechan"?

Agree on the pitch issue... every language instructor I've spoken to says there's very little pitch change - mostly minor things like "hashi" or "hashi" for which my current instructor just does a little line with an upswing on the emphasized end. However, listening to casual chatter and dialects there are clearly a fair amount of intonation chirps.

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by Kyuusai

Are there any Japanese dictionaries that contain pitch notation? I am not necessarily looking for anything written for English-speakers (I'm pretty sure there is no such thing, as I've only found one textbook's vocabulary sections aside). A native Japanese dictionary is fine, if such a thing exists.

I think 日本語発音アクセント辞典 (Dictionary of Japanese Pronuncitation and Accent) will do best for that purpose. It is a textbook made by NHK to train announcers. Therefore note that it is strongly centred on "standard" Japanese; if you are interested in dialects, refer to other sources such as 大阪ことば事典 (Encyclopaedia Linguae Osakae).

Originally Posted by Kyuusai

Secondly:
I'm curious as to what titles or honorifics might be used to refer to and address religious ministers in Japan. Since I'll be working with Christian ministers in Japan, I'm most curious about Japanese terms appropriate in such context (in English we would generally use "Brother"/"Sister" or "Reverend", except for church leaders who are addressed according to office, ie "Pastor", and Catholic priests who are addressed as "Father"), but I'd also be interested in knowing what is appropriate for ministers of other religions active in Japan.

You can see the Cathoric titles in this statistics. Officially they call each other in familyname+title (eg. Smith-Shikyou / Bishop Smith) similarly as in many other fields in Japan. But it is acceptable to use "-san" in a relaxed situation. しんぷさま is also OK.

Some Buddhism sects also have clergy systems called 僧階 (soukai / priest grades). They are devided roughly 僧正 (soujou / leader) - 僧都 (souzu / fellow) - 律師 (risshi / associate), each of which is classified by prefix, such as 大僧正 (senior-) and　少僧都 (junior-). But those systems are often criticised severely because of the authoritarian nuance, and many priests prefer to be called just with "-san".

[Strahan]

I mentioned the same thing to my tutor, about intonation. I asked about "hashi" and he said that actually worrying about the pitch is not really important because of dialects. What may be appropriate on one side of Japan is the exact opposite on the other side. He said what really matters in most Japanese is context, because obviously if you go to a restaurant you aren't asking for a bridge with your soba and you obviously won't think when someone is giving you directions that you are supposed to get off the highway at the first exit after the chopsticks hehe.

On an unrelated note.. does anyone know of a website that has a kanji reference with stroke order? I'm going over my notes and there are several kanji I want to work on but I don't want to practice writing them unless I'm doing the proper stroke order and until payday I'm too broke for a kanji book

[Kyuusai]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

To my knowledge which is limited within thiss field but the names for Christian titles are as follows;

教皇 (Kyoko)　　 Pope
枢機卿 (Suukikei) Cardinal
司教　(Shikyo) Bishop
神父　(Shinpu) Father or padre
尼　　(Ama) Nun

Many thanks!

These are specifically Catholic terms. I find it interesting how the history of the Catholicism in Japan has resulted in Catholic terms having such terminology. It just seems so incongruent with such a western institution.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Why am I picturing a church meeting with a bunch of people calling each other "onichan" and "oneechan"?

Just so you know, this made me grin.

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

I think 日本語発音アクセント辞典 (Dictionary of Japanese Pronuncitation and Accent) will do best for that purpose. It is a textbook made by NHK to train announcers. Therefore note that it is strongly centred on "standard" Japanese; if you are interested in dialects, refer to other sources such as 大阪ことば事典 (Encyclopaedia Linguae Osakae).

You can see the Cathoric titles in this statistics. Officially they call each other in familyname+title (eg. Smith-Shikyou / Bishop Smith) similarly as in many other fields in Japan. But it is acceptable to use "-san" in a relaxed situation. しんぷさま is also OK.

Some Buddhism sects also have clergy systems called 僧階 (soukai / priest grades). They are devided roughly 僧正 (soujou / leader) - 僧都 (souzu / fellow) - 律師 (risshi / associate), each of which is classified by prefix, such as 大僧正 (senior-) and　少僧都 (junior-). But those systems are often criticised severely because of the authoritarian nuance, and many priests prefer to be called just with "-san".

My gratitude is immeasurable! I'll definitely order those books when I'm studying in 岡崎市 this December/January (What a time to go... I must remind myself to pray for a mild winter.).

Knowing that the Catholic references can be so relaxed lets me know that I won't have as much to worry about. Much like the difference in Buddhist sects, the great majority of non-Catholic Christianity has no strict authority structure or clergy hierarchy, and criticism of clergy systems and the inequality it created between clergy and the laity has led to greater use of status-neutral terms, such as as "Brother" and "Sister" (I, myself, become quite uncomfortable when referred to with "Reverend", because I feel it's inappropriate. I'm just a regular human being like any one else!).

While I imagine that I'll have to pay attention for use of honorifics like "sensei" on occasion, it sounds like I'll have no problems using "-san", which makes it easy on me.

Originally Posted by Strahan

On an unrelated note.. does anyone know of a website that has a kanji reference with stroke order? I'm going over my notes and there are several kanji I want to work on but I don't want to practice writing them unless I'm doing the proper stroke order and until payday I'm too broke for a kanji book

This may be of aid to you:
http://www.yamasa.org/ocjs/kanjijite...ish/index.html

My advice would be to focus first on stroke order of the radicals. The rest will follow. You get a feel for it rather quickly.

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

Though they are interchangeable in the meaning, each of them has different implication about the situation and speaker's background.

>nomanakucha

young, soft, casual, girly

well if memory serves me right, that form of verb is actually tokyo slang, amoung the the young people. Well that what my teacher said. Oh, well i guess living in osaka for a while i am quite fond of osaka~ben, which in my opinion soooooo much cooler!
飲まへん！！！
nomahen

acutally people dont really use that anymore...really

but i still hear alot of shindoi,akan,aho,homba...ect

[Tri-ring]

For MacDonald's,
in Tokyo it's Mac
In Osaka I think it was Macudo.

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

For MacDonald's,
in Tokyo it's Mac
In Osaka I think it was Macudo.

i dont know about tokyo


but the osaka ben is correct, i actaully use it alot lol

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by Butternuts

well if memory serves me right, that form of verb is actually tokyo slang, amoung the the young people.

As far as I know, the transmutation of "e-wa" into "ya" (e.g. te-wa -> tya, re-wa -> rya) can be seen widely in geographical and chronological dimension of the Japanese linguistic plane. I admit the standard Japanese today has been founded principally on Tokyo dialect, eliminating fertile diversity of dialects, but the e-wa metamorphosis is not limited within Tokyo dialect; even Yamaguchi dialect has it. I suspect Tokyo dialect itself imported the transformation from Mikawa dialect in the 17C.

I see you cherish your own tongue. But this thread is for those learning Japanese as the second (third, or more) language. You should not confuse them with "too rich" variables.

[Vexx]

aye, I picked up a book on Kansai-ben and Osaka-ben.... fortunately, it makes sense mostly but other than a few choice phrases and the linguistic interest it was a bit of a derail.

One thing I've found pretty much *zero* information written in English about is Ainu. A couple of PDF pages from an academic extract and some data on Ainu mythology.
Any leads would be appreciated but PM them to me.

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by bungmonkey

kusuri o nomanakucha (ikenai/dame/naranai) (girly/kiddish sounding?)
kusuri o nomanakute wa (ikenai/dame/naranai)
kusuri o nomanai to (ikenai/dame/naranai)
kusuri o nomanakereba (ikenai/dame/naranai)

Don't forget:

薬　を　飲まな（あかん）
kusuri o nomana (akan) (Osaka-ben)

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

I think 日本語発音アクセント辞典 (Dictionary of Japanese Pronuncitation and Accent) will do best for that purpose. It is a textbook made by NHK to train announcers. Therefore note that it is strongly centred on "standard" Japanese; if you are interested in dialects, refer to other sources such as 大阪ことば事典 (Encyclopaedia Linguae Osakae).

I should check out those dictionaries, I think. I was taught to speak Japanese using the JSL series, which includes marks for (Standard) intonation, but since then I've lived exclusively in Kansai, whose accent is completely different. I realize that the pitch accent is mostly irrelevant (and word choice can be figured out by context), but it's still pretty neat. Even when Tokyo and Osaka use the same word, they don't sound the same...

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

As far as I know, the transmutation of "e-wa" into "ya" (e.g. te-wa -> tya, re-wa -> rya) can be seen widely in geographical and chronological dimension of the Japanese linguistic plane. I admit the standard Japanese today has been founded principally on Tokyo dialect, eliminating fertile diversity of dialects, but the e-wa metamorphosis is not limited within Tokyo dialect; even Yamaguchi dialect has it. I suspect Tokyo dialect itself imported the transformation from Mikawa dialect in the 17C.

One thing I've been wondering about lately is the development of the negative conditional (i.e. mizenkei + na) in Osaka-ben. The affirmative conditional is pretty straightforward: it's just "-tara" (also seen in Standard Japanese; mizenkei of past ending "-ta") with the "-ra" mora clipped off, but I can't figure out where the negative version comes from and haven't found a dictionary that'll tell me. Is it the mizenkei of the medieval negative ending "-nu"? Something else entirely?

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

Don't forget:

薬　を　飲まな（あかん）
kusuri o nomana (akan) (Osaka-ben)


I should check out those dictionaries, I think. I was taught to speak Japanese using the JSL series, which includes marks for (Standard) intonation, but since then I've lived exclusively in Kansai, whose accent is completely different. I realize that the pitch accent is mostly irrelevant (and word choice can be figured out by context), but it's still pretty neat. Even when Tokyo and Osaka use the same word, they don't sound the same...

where do you live? o.o

my school is in tennoji xD

I would love to visit tokyo one day to see the difference between osaka and tokyo...however from shin-osaka to tokyo by shinkansen cost like..what 16000 yen...or something. Yea, being a student, I cant afford something like that lol.

yea and no night buses for me

[Tabris]

Anyone want to practice their Japanese and do me a favour by telling me what it says here
http://forums.animesuki.com/album.ph...pictureid=5370

Thinly veiled request

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Butternuts

where do you live? o.o

my school is in tennoji xD

I would love to visit tokyo one day to see the difference between osaka and tokyo...however from shin-osaka to tokyo by shinkansen cost like..what 16000 yen...or something. Yea, being a student, I cant afford something like that lol.

yea and no night buses for me

First stop on the Semi-Express out of Abenobashi.

And I know what you mean about travel; a teacher's salary isn't much conducive to getting around Japan, either. Still, there's plenty of places in Kansai you can get to on a budget...

[WanderingKnight]

Anyone want to practice their Japanese and do me a favour by telling me what it says here
http://forums.animesuki.com/album.ph...pictureid=5370

Thinly veiled request

It's splattered by "Welcome back, master!". There's a "Moe!" on the leftmost picture. Other than that, nothing of too much interest (personally). On the left you can read "Maijirou" who I suppose is the guy? Kinda weird name for a girl :/

[Tabris]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

On the left you can read "Maijirou" who I suppose is the guy? Kinda weird name for a girl :/

Thanks!

Nah, isn't the guy...because it's me haha

Anyone else care to translate the rest of it though?

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

First stop on the Semi-Express out of Abenobashi.

And I know what you mean about travel; a teacher's salary isn't much conducive to getting around Japan, either. Still, there's plenty of places in Kansai you can get to on a budget...

Yea i guess...

i usually hang out at shinsaibashi or someplace near there.....lol

btw does anyone know what youngsters these days use as slang...I don't have many young japanese friends, and school doesn't really teach "shortcuts".

My friends told me they use 暑い　(hot) to describe something cool/pretty/handsome/ect

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Butternuts

Yea i guess...

i usually hang out at shinsaibashi or someplace near there.....lol

btw does anyone know what youngsters these days use as slang...I don't have many young japanese friends, and school doesn't really teach "shortcuts".

My friends told me they use 暑い　(hot) to describe something cool/pretty/handsome/ect

I've heard "oishii" being used in the same sense as the English slang meaning of "sweet", but I'm not up to the minute on the latest slang. "KY" comes in handy at school though.

[Butternuts]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

I've heard "oishii" being used in the same sense as the English slang meaning of "sweet", but I'm not up to the minute on the latest slang. "KY" comes in handy at school though.

OMG KY

wait i know what it means

something like i cant read/understand the mood/atmosphere right now?

K->空気
Y->読まない
？？？