Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[JagdPanther]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

*snip for length*

That's... a lot to take in. Wow.

[Twi]

I kind of agree with Renegade, though in my eyes its just a pointless escalation meant to get the plot moving. And quagmire also brings up a good point by introducing that plot element, they effectively made Durandal's actions last season a whole lot stupider since he was going to shoot his own plan in the foot. Maybe if he was planning to kidnapper and kill the other witnesses so he could lock her up/brainwash her while his propaganda version acted as the public face, but pretty sure those ZAFT dudes took kill shots.

[aeriolewinters]

Spoiler for Spoiler quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade334

A few things from the official Freedom novel by Liu Goto. We'll suppose it is canon and follows the movie faithfully.

TL;DR…

SPOILERS - movie backdrop and other details, ch.1, unofficial translation

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NOTES:

Spoiler:

- At one of the first public screenings, Fukuda is said to have expressed interest in a prequel to Freedom, centered on this unseen Gundamjack. Take this with a huge grain of salt, 4chan comments are by no means Word of God.

Spoiler for Moonlight Valkyrie novella:

The Moonlight Valkyrie novella (AKA "Week 1 Attendee Special Gift B"), also by Liu Goto, kind of foreshadows that the culprit of the failed hijacking is a Coordinator by the name of Leonard Valway, whose parents died in Januarius Two as a result of the REQUIEM firing by Djibril. He gained access to the Freedom by buttering up Agnes, who then used her family connections to promise him at least one joyride. The novel ends on a dialogue between those two, although it is unclear whether the Accords had a hand in his actions.

- Agnes is more of a Fllay-like gold-digger/social climber than first described and has quite the spiteful tongue, too.
- The whole "Foundation breaking away from Eurasia" and "Orphee Lam Tao being acknowledged by Durandal" raises questions on the whole timeline, especially it makes one wonder how did Coordinators successfully orchestrate a coup d'état in a region that is nowadays quite the Blue Cosmos hotbed. Also makes you wonder whether Aura and Gilbert were in true cahoots (Foundation's breaking off being possibly one of his peripheral schemes to weaken the EA) or if they simply had relatively similar dreams they were pursuing independently of one another.

Personally - I don't really like this Accord thing, which feels tacked-on as a means to align the whole Coordinator concept (which was its own thing and I hoped it'd stay that way!) closer to the Newtype/Innovator concept from other Gundam universes (and Fukuda does borrow a lot of things from other Gundam franchises in the movie, be it the Z'Gok, the Gyan, the G-Bit, the Gundam 00 Raiser - just to cite the more obvious ones). Especially with Kira being dubbed a "failed Accord", as it rewrites the whole Ulen Hibiki backstory and draws up unneeded (IMHO) entanglements. Hibiki's Ultimate Coordinator project was started to solve one problem, which was the sharp fertility drop-off issue after three generations and the rising number of stillbirths. Hibiki partially solved it with the artificial womb and then designed, with his son as the medium, the ideal Coordinator whose genes made the stillbirth problem a non-issue (though it is unknown what causes it; it's clearly said in SEED that the biggest wildcard in Coordinator pregnancy was the mother's womb, but it is not clarified, AFAIK, whether the womb was rejecting the embryo as if it were a foreign body contaminant or if the embryo was simply failing to survive in the uterus)...it wasn't a "I will create the perfect supersoldier" plan at all, nor was it a "I will create the next world leader" plan, either - at least that we know of (and Raww did not allude to this, either, in his fevered ramblings). Ulen's dalliances with Al Da Flaga were an acceptable plot twist (why? Because it explains how Kira could have inherited his Newtype abilities from the Da Flaga gene pool, which Ulen had access to), but this new Accord thing makes it feel like a tangled web. Hibiki's single-minded pursuit of perfection and the ideological can of worms that is the Destiny Plan are not...fundamentally...incompatible, but it does make me wonder if, as a Natural, he'd have agreed with it given that the implementation of such a sweeping social program would have stuck him somewhere in the middle of the human pyramid of genetically-determined merit; he strikes me as too proud an individual for that (and he already had reservations on the subject of cloning, but probably needed the money anyway).

Of course, the extradiegetic explanation to the introduction of the Accord stuff is that the scriptwriters needed something to prop Lacus up and rationalize her presence inside Strike Freedom (aside from presenting a mirror image to Cal-re.A's Orphee and Ingrid pilot crew) aside from giving Kira a pep talk...
...and provide a good reason why COMPASS gets such a thorough trashing midway through the movie.

My thing here is that Aura, et al isn't a reliable judge of what Kira is. I'd also imagine that Aura is sour-graping at the fact that Kira managed to become what he is, despite his original purpose. Ulen did way better than what he intended.


We later find out through battle that The accords are just passing off hot air. They aren't the invincible race they thought they were. Which leads me to believe that Kira's existence annoys them.

[Renegade334]

The way I simply see it, is that Ulen Hibiki's Ultimate Coordinator and Aura Maha Cipher's Accord are two separate development branches of the Coordinator program.

• UC: solves the fertility and stillbirths issue plaguing the Coordinator race...which Fukuda seems to have forgotten about or glossed over. Also incorporates Newtype genes either because Ulen wanted the best of the best for his son or because he found those exotic genes stabilized the Coordinator genome.
• Accord: Coordinator with telepathic abilities, thus making them ideal to manipulate the masses and install themselves as leaders.

There is so far no evidence both programs were linked and shared notes, or that Ulen was competing with Aura to create the first Accord.
Also, there is no currently known evidence that the Accord technology solves the Coordinator fertility and pregnancy stability issues the UC program set out to resolve in the first place - which means they, too, could still be in a demographic/genetic pinch. Ulen's victory was short-lived given that Mendel was attacked by Blue Cosmos shortly after Caridad absconded with both Cagalli and Kira; much of the UC know-how probably died with the Hibikis and their assistants... Orphee being the same age as Kira, I don't think Aura had the time to refurbish his genome with UC material hypothetically pilfered from Mendel after the tragedy. I could be wrong, though - the novel hasn't been fully translated yet.

As for Kira, the novel (chapter 1) makes it clear Orphee views him as a "pest"...primarily because of his romantic entanglement with Lacus, though.

[aeriolewinters]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

The way I simply see it, is that Ulen Hibiki's Ultimate Coordinator and Aura Maha Cipher's Accord are two separate development branches of the Coordinator program.

• UC: solves the fertility and stillbirths issue plaguing the Coordinator race...which Fukuda seems to have forgotten about or glossed over. Also incorporates Newtype genes either because Ulen wanted the best of the best for his son or because he found those exotic genes stabilized the Coordinator genome.
• Accord: Coordinator with telepathic abilities, thus making them ideal to manipulate the masses and install themselves as leaders.

There is so far no evidence both programs were linked or had technology exchanges, or that Ulen was competing with Maha to create the first Accord.
Also, there is no currently known evidence that the Accord technology solves the Coordinator fertility and pregnancy stability issues the UC program set out to resolve in the first place - which means they, too, could still be in a demographic/genetic pinch. Ulen's victory was short-lived given that Mendel was attacked by Blue Cosmos shortly after Caridad absconded with both Cagalli and Kira; much of the UC know-how probably died with the Hibikis and their assistants... Orphee being the same age as Kira, I don't think Maha had the time to refurbish his genome with UC material hypothetically pilfered from Mendel after the tragedy.

As for Kira, the novel (chapter 1) makes it clear Orphee views him as a "pest"...primarily because of his romantic entanglement with Lacus, though.

That's the smoking gun. I don't ever think that Kira was intended to be an Accord. They just tried to hoodwink Kira into believing that his abilities aren't unique at all. But realistically. I don't see it, Orphee and the other Accords all have MS that are way spec'd even over Strike Freedom, but when the chips are down? Kira and their "will" will win over "designed Superiority"

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by Twi

And quagmire also brings up a good point by introducing that plot element, they effectively made Durandal's actions last season a whole lot stupider since he was going to shoot his own plan in the foot.

The thing is, the Destiny Plan was absolutely perfect for Aura and her Accords, as it secured them top seats in this promised Brave New World. But were the Accords perfect for Durandal's vision of a stable and peaceful society? That's the more salient question. Individuals like Durandal who are steadfast in their conviction that they know better and have the better plans are not necessarily willing to cede control to others, especially individuals who are defined by their ability to manipulate others. That's assuming, of course, that Durandal was aware of what Aura was truly cooking in her lab.

It's possible that Durandal only saw them as useful pawns on his imaginary chessboard, good for raising hell in the EA's own backyard and possibly create an Earth-bound springboard for the DP when the time came to implement it and spread it all over the planet.

Durandal's death, of course, was a boon for the Accords since they were now free to scheme with Jagganath, the radical head of ZAFT, and pave the way for a coup in PLANT. No more middle man.

Originally Posted by Twi

Maybe if he was planning to kidnapper and kill the other witnesses so he could lock her up/brainwash her while his propaganda version acted as the public face, but pretty sure those ZAFT dudes took kill shots.

It's very clearly said in the dialogue that Lacus was to be killed. Either Durandal wasn't aware of her status as an Accord cuckoo chick (it's still unknown at this point whether Siegel knew what she was or how she came to be that way) or he labeled her too big of a threat to bother manipulating.

[cyberdemon]

Spoiler for Kira:

I’ve seen a few version concerning Kira. 1 is that he is an accord but never properly trained so falls behind early. Yet he learns through the movie. The other is that he's a failed accord. So which is it?

[Washu-Chan]

Today is Lacus’s birthday!

Happy birthday, Lacus!

Speaking of Lacus, she has wing motifs in her designs, from her headgear and spacesuit, as well as the Proud Defender she pilots. It could be a possible nod to Gundams with similar wing motifs, including the Wing Zero Custom, the Hi-Nu Gundam, and obviously the Freedom series.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

That's... a lot to take in. Wow.

And, apparently:
- there might be deviations from the movie plot (unspecified).
- vol.2 of the novel will be released in two months' time.

[Washu-Chan]

There could be a Gundam SEED Freedom Astray manga coming soon, in the tradition of SEED Astray, SEED Destiny Astray, and SEED CE 73 Delta Astray, as well as a possible Gundam SEED Freedom: Phase Zero.

[Mad Pierrot]

Interesting.

Spoiler for spoiler:

The characters aren't that proud about everything they did in the previous two series.

Still... Orphee is a Scirocco expy? The power to mindscrew others was used by the guy in Zeta

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Today is Lacus’s birthday!

Happy birthday, Lacus!

[Washu-Chan]

Rie Tanaka’s Twitter: Rie Tanaka celebrates Lacus’s birthday by cutting Mr. Pink, Lacus’s Haro

[Frontier]

Rie Tanaka really likes playing Lacus...and cosplaying .

[quagmire]

Saw another trailer which just further adds to the inconsistencies to the movie at least when it comes to the official Mobile Suit information.

As revealed, they redesignated the SF Spec II to a new designation. Yet the trailer shows the SF Spec II to still have the ZGMF X20A designation on its head unit.

[Renegade334]

The ZGMF/A-262 is the original Strike Freedom, but refurbished (different railgun geometry, reworked pauldrons) and dubbed "Spec II". It still uses the original frame and overall equipment, but the original DRAGOON-carrying flight pack can be swapped with the new Proud Defender, at which point it is essentially considered a new model (and a two-seater, at that).

The only other thing they really changed is the mega particle cannon they slotted into the forehead block (a homage to the MSZ-010 ZZ Gundam)...which is useless without the PD.

What is peculiar, though, is that the Infinite Justice, which is described a "modified version" of IJ (though I am not fluent enough in Japanese to tell whether it can be more accurately translated as a "modified/altered/updated IJ")...does not share the /A suffix of the Mighty Strike Freedom or the Destiny Spec II. Also it is named "Type II" rather than "Spec II"...a different frame?
Naming conventions are a bit all over the place here...

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

The ZGMF/A-262 is the original Strike Freedom, but refurbished (different railgun geometry, reworked pauldrons) and dubbed "Spec II". It still uses the original frame and overall equipment, but the original DRAGOON-carrying flight pack can be swapped with the new Proud Defender, at which point it is essentially considered a new model (and a two-seater, at that).

The only other thing they really changed is the mega particle cannon they slotted into the forehead block (a homage to the MSZ-010 ZZ Gundam)...which is useless without the PD.

What is peculiar, though, is that the Infinite Justice, which is described a "modified version" of IJ (though I am not fluent enough in Japanese to tell whether it can be more accurately translated as a "modified/altered/updated IJ")...does not share the /A suffix of the Mighty Strike Freedom or the Destiny Spec II. Also it is named "Type II" rather than "Spec II"...a different frame?
Naming conventions are a bit all over the place here...

Oh I know it is still the same MS....

I was mostly pointing out the fact they didn't even bother to put the new designation on the suit. The animators were just being lazy/missed that attention to detail and left X20A on there.....

[Renegade334]

About that potential prequel to Freedom, there is apparently more to it (relevant part in red):

FUKUDA: (Regarding the flashback scene in FREEDOM that doesn’t make sense as a standalone) There’s a whole story that comes before that. We don’t know if we’ll ever produce it though (audience yells “Make it!”)
PRODUCER NAKA: You wouldn’t understand that scene just by watching FREEDOM.
FUKUDA: There was a project 10 years ago. There was talk of it being released as an OVA, and talk of a theatrical version. Over the years, the OVA got cut. While Morosawa was still alive, Morita and I finished writing the script, but…
FUKUDA: (Audience: We want to see it!) I’m not telling.
YOSHIDA: There is a very convincing way to persuade them. If it’s a huge hit, there’s no way they wouldn’t make it, right? (Audience applauds)
FUKUDA: Well, that’s how these things tend to happen.
FUKUDA: I didn’t want to just pretend it never happened, so I forcefully worked it in there. I was hoping someone would notice and ask about it.

This was from a Q&A with Fukuda held at the movie's premiere, after the screening (credits to Zeonic-Translation for collation and translation).

Spoiler:

This, of course, refers to the Strike Freedom Gundam getting hijacked by Agnes' then-boyfriend before the movie takes place and shot down by Foundation's Black Knights, which is a sort of WTF moment that sticks out like a sore thumb.

By the way, Fukuda's twitter has some interesting/amusing blurbs and tidbits here and there (like a scene where Ezalia Joule stares at Shiho until her son glares at her to stop it, or a mention that Kira and Lacus have a mansion in PLANT, near the central colony shaft, and share a double bed).

[Mad Pierrot]

Something I don't understand about this movie is this

Spoiler for mecha:

So the Freedom and Justice are just new Gundams weaker? And the ones revealed in the climax are the ones from from Destiny but with some touches?

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

Something I don't understand about this movie is this

Spoiler for mecha:

So the Freedom and Justice are just new Gundams weaker? And the ones revealed in the climax are the ones from from Destiny but with some touches?

Basically, yes.

Spoiler for a few things:

Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice are mothballed, possibly because they're both nuclear-powered...and SF was being rebuilt in the background because Agnes' boyfriend hijacked it before the events of the movie (as revealed in a short flashback and in a bonus novella by Liu Goto distributed to Day 1 moviegoers) to fulfill a revenge fantasy of his against EA/Blue Cosmos...and got himself shot down by the Black Knights Squad, who (presumably!) took this opportunity to study the SF and mount a strategy against it.

Kira and Shinn (yes, Shinn, not Athrun--who's still an Orb agent rather than a COMPASS one) use Orb-built MSes that use Murasames as basis but draw final inspiration from SF and IJ. They're weaker in that sense.

And they sustain massive damage midway through the movie (Archangel crash-lands and is blown up, for one).

In the final battle, most of COMPASS' mobile suits are technologically outclassed by Foundation's and their pilots are put on the back foot due to the Accords' abilities, but COMPASS is eventually allowed to shine through thanks to:
- pilot idiosyncrasies and skills: Shinn being literally a musclehead with a protective Stellar living rent-free in the depths of his mind; the telepathic attempt to access his innermost darkness ends up mentally destabilizing his opponents (thanks to a vision of a monstrous and ghoulish Stellar) and putting him in berserker state.
- trickery and skills: Athrun pretending to pilot his IJ Spec II while Cagalli is actually remote-controlling it from her own MS far, far away from the battlefield, thus negating the telepathic shenanigans of Athrun's adversary - Shura, if I remember well. Additional points to Athrun for actually force-feeding his foe lewd thoughts of his love interest. He does retake control of his mech after Shura realizes the deception, though, and showcases how good he is as a close-combat expert (death by forehead beam saber).
- Power-up and couple!power: Kira's Strike Freedom is still outmatched by the technologically superior Cal-re.A (which is a two-seater with a pilot and a weapons operator), but it receives an upgrade in the form of the Proud Defender backpack, which basically doubles (?) its power output, allows it to use its head-mounted mega particle cannon (which is extremely power-hungry but powerful enough to cleave Messiah and several warships asunder) and a massive nanoparticle-enabled electric forcefield that can also repel particle beam. The operation of that last (mentally-controlled) gimmick is handed over to Lacus, which makes the Mighty Strike Freedom a two-seater, a mirror image of its Foundation adversary. Last but not least, the PD gives Kira a physical sword to defeat the Cal-re.A's beam-resistant FT armor.
Also: Ahrun pilots a Z'Gok, which is secretly a Mars Jacket shroud concealed the IJ Spec II underneath it...once he discards the shell, he equips a new flight pack that is basically Fukuda's homage to Star Wars' X-Wing.
And: Yzak and Dearka arrive with nuclear-powered Buster and Duel and use the Eternal's METEORs.

By the way...here's another pet peeve of mine for this movie.

Spoiler:

Why the hell are Requiem and Messiah still around? Why were these superweapons allowed to be (respectively) rebuilt and refurbished? Shouldn't they have been completely dismantled as part of the post-Destiny peace process? These two things are kinda hard to miss and leave lying around, yo.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Does Athrun get back with Cagalli? That's the only thing I need to know.

I've read here and there that there is a second novella that was distributed to the Day 1 moviegoers...

Spoiler:

...about a date between Athrun and Cagalli taking place several weeks/months after the movie. Main bullet points:
- Athrun sneaking about to get that date (at a restaurant? will have to recheck) and Cagalli's security detail thinks of him as a two-timing pervert.
- Cagalli and Athrun being a couple is confirmed, but Cagalli's status as head of state makes things very complicated for them. "No open romance" type of complication.
- According to the novella, Meyrin and Athrun were never a couple.
- Cagalli never saw the two as a couple.

Of course, this has to be taken cautiously with a grain of salt as I haven't seen an actual translation of it yet (or maybe it's just passed by me unnoticed - who knows). Not to mention and, as I understand it, those limited-edition novellas won't be available for sale afterwards, as they're a special goodie distributed exclusively to the movie's first audience members.