[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by TehChron

He spent his time before enlisting in the army with strolling through the rose garden and "drinking unpleasant drinks" or something in addition to reading. Why wouldn't that be referring to alcohol? Maybe not specifically absinthe, but sake or some other liquor is well within the realm of possibility.

And are we really about to get into the discussion about the likelihood of Kinzo's drinking affecting his lifespan? Does that even matter?

Yes because Nanjo made a point on the fact that alcohol is very bad for Kinzo's health, and that's really the only plausible way you can explain why Kinzo is still alive in Lion's world.

[Moogleking]

Unless the reason he is alive in Lion's world is that he wasn't murdered.

I really don't think Kinzo's death scene was legit. I just can't see him going out so peacefully.

Is it possible the red-guts line from Beato3 isn't referring to some injury from the fall?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yes because Nanjo made a point on the fact that alcohol is very bad for Kinzo's health, and that's really the only plausible way you can explain why Kinzo is still alive in Lion's world.

Stress and guilt do terrible things to the human body, I would chalk that up to being the cause more than the liquor.

Besides, wouldn't Lion's birth and acceptance into the family give him a reason to give up drinking, rather than continuing to indulge in it? That Lion's existence causes Kinzo to stop drinking doesn't preclude the possibility that he did so heavily before Lion's birth.

[Jan-Poo]

But then you'd have to imagine that Nanjo was the murderer or an accomplice because he said Kinzo was going to die soon back in 1984.

Besides, wouldn't Lion's birth and acceptance into the family give him a reason to give up drinking, rather than continuing to indulge in it? That Lion's existence causes Kinzo to stop drinking doesn't preclude the possibility that he did so heavily before Lion's birth.

If you are assuming he was drinking to begin with, why would you assume that he stopped right when Beatrice2 died?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But then you'd have to imagine that Nanjo was the murderer or an accomplice because he said Kinzo was going to die soon back in 1984.

He never did get that gold bar he was promised...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If you are assuming he was drinking to begin with, why would you assume that he stopped right when Beatrice2 died?

Im under the assumption he never stopped drinking. You're the one that said he might have in Lion's world, and that's me pointing out a flaw in that reasoning. That he drank something often/heavily before meeting Beatrice is something he stated himself. He never said he stopped.

Absinthe has been part of the characterization since the beginning. And in Episode 2, Battler got into Kinzo's booze stash before going up to the study at Genji's request. That very same Genji then commented on Kinzo's love for drinking.

[Moogleking]

This is another reason I am suspicious that he was murdered. This could also explain why Natsuhi and Krauss were so insistent on hiding the body.

[AuraTwilight]

He never did get that gold bar he was promised...

No, but he was paid the equivalent in hard cash.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

No, but he was paid the equivalent in hard cash.

Gold bars are a man's romance. Yen notes are not a substitute.

[AuraTwilight]

Nanjo doesn't have the means of converting that gold bar into money, I don't think he minds.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Nanjo doesn't have the means of converting that gold bar into money, I don't think he minds.

A man's. Romance.

Has nothing to do with money.

[Mirrored]

Converting small quantities of gold into cash isn't hard if it's one or two bars. Especially because Kinzo allegedly Repressed the gold with his own seals.

Now, massive quantities of gold, that wouldn't be so easy. But one or two bars worth, not a rough task.

[AuraTwilight]

Well, actually, yes, it is, if you don't want to get into criminal bullshit. Krauss brings it up as a damn arguing point. The gold isn't on the market and lacks a valid government seal and serialization, Kinzo's seal stamp won't mean jack. If Nanjo tries to convert it he could get into international legal trouble.

[Mirrored]

Actually, no, not really. I have most of my savings in gold (got it back at 750ish an oz). I went with Kruggerand's to avoid the risk of unmarked gold, but if you were dealing with anyone who could Assay gold, you could market it.

You get way less if you're going to have to assay it and you're going to do it legitimately, but its still marketable. You would take a huge hit to the price you could command for the gold, but you could sell it.

The siblings would want Krauss's connections for getting the most out of the gold, and for doing large scale, regular transactions, which would be sure to draw attention.

But with the reporting standards of 1986, you would be fine with one or two gold bars. You lose profit from having to have someone test/vouch for the purity, but there are legitimate channels to do this through.

Since the gold is essentially "free" to him, it'd be fine.

[Qaenyin]

I still maintain my theory that George is manipulating Shannon into everything and the 2 year gap between the end of Yasu's story and the Epitaph Murders are where he warps her into being a serial murderer(or serial murderer accomplice). Without outside manipulation Yasu simply has no motivation to kill anyone except Battler or perhaps herself out of grief and rage.

I've more or less suspected George ever since Ep 3 though. Him bringing Shannon "Back to life" with the help of "Beatrice" was just too suspicious especially if you factor in Shkanontrice and Personality Death symbolism.

[Mirrored]

Originally Posted by Qaenyin

I still maintain my theory that George is manipulating Shannon into everything and the 2 year gap between the end of Yasu's story and the Epitaph Murders are where he warps her into being a serial murderer(or serial murderer accomplice). Without outside manipulation Yasu simply has no motivation to kill anyone except Battler or perhaps herself out of grief and rage.

Strongly disagree. Natsuhi threw her off a cliff. The family has raised her as a servant. She's been denied her inheritance as a child of Kinzo, or even the consideration that comes with that. She was constantly berated. She is with George in a body incapable of love. He tells her that he wants kids. She can't have them. Battler returns. This is true whether Yasu is the child of Beatrice and Kinzo or whether Yasu is the child of Rudolf and Asumu.

If you believe what was presented, Kinzo apologized for his incest, etc. If you don't believe that, the possibilities there also get darker.

[AuraTwilight]

Strongly disagree. Natsuhi threw her off a cliff. The family has raised her as a servant. She's been denied her inheritance as a child of Kinzo, or even the consideration that comes with that. She was constantly berated. She is with George in a body incapable of love. He tells her that he wants kids. She can't have them. Battler returns. This is true whether Yasu is the child of Beatrice and Kinzo or whether Yasu is the child of Rudolf and Asumu.

In order, she doesn't know that, it's not their fault, she doesn't care, that's petty even by these standards, she loves George, we don't know for sure that she can't have kids.

[ijriims]

So it is time for us to post the final version of hypothesis?

Spoiler for Block of text:

To cut story short, Yasu has an ambiguious sex because of his/her hideous origin, she thinks she is a male if raised as Lion, a female if raised as Sayo Yasuda. After the fall from cliff, she got some scar, and thought it was the cause of her ambiguous sex

As Sayo Yasuda, she was very sensitive about her body and growth, so she fake her breast size...

A met with Battler sparked her first sense of love, but the left of Battler and lack of letter from him finally destoryed her love towards him. She became tired of imposing as a good maid Shannon, but instead abandoned the disguise and became Kanon. This was approved by Genji, known by Nanjo and Kumasawa.

She met Maria and created the world of Beatrice, the details was told in EP7

Problems ensued when George fell in love with Shannon, while Jessica hit on Kanon. She did not know which to choose because she did not want to hurt both. And she was anxious about George finding out her own body 's disfiguration (So Beatrice mocked Shannon in EP2 about her naive thought of George). She finally decided she would choose George (the duel in EP6) and came up with an excuse for Jessica.

After the death of Kinzo, Shannon realized that Krauss and his family was in big trouble so he could not reveal Kinzo's death. She knew that the other siblings were suspicious about it and the family was going to fracture, which will hurt George, Jessica, Battler and Maria. To avoid this, she decided to put up the play of Beatrice to put the adults' attention to the epitaph, while also affirming Kinzo's well-being (in the first letter). She also planned to transfer the headship and 10 ton gold if any sibling can solve the epitaph by 6th Oct. If no one was able to solve it by the time limit, at least the siblings can get the cash money. The whole play was also a means to have a "resurrected" Rosa for Maria, so that Maria and Rosa's relationship can get better.

The twilights served as the time limit posed on adults, people chosen will be asked to play death, meaning that their right of getting the 10 ton gold is lost.

Insiders are Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo and innocent helper Maria.
. George was only asked to point out the withered rose in the garde.

Shannon wanted this whole play as a challenge to Battler, but since he did not return, Shannon asked for Kyrie's help if she could persuade Rudolf to beg for Battler's return, by revealing her affectation towards Battler.

Battler returned, so Shannon and Kyrie got closer together (EP2 it was Kyrie to provide the timing and clue for Rosa to rush to Maria, and met Beatrice). Being closer, Kyrie deduced that Shannon had a plan of herself, finally Shannon revealed the whole plan of testing the family and her dilemma between George and Jessica. Kyrie used her words to instil doubts of the outcome into Shannon. Shannon feared more about the family fighting over the gold, George rejecting her and Jessica being devestated with Kanon's disappearance.

So instead of a fake death plot, Shannon turned it into a giant suicidal plan. She tried to find the solution inside her imagined stories. In the end, she left consolation money for the deceased's relatives (she asked Kyrie not to get Ange come on that day), wrote the letters-in-the-bottle, and set up the explosives. That's why Beatrice was so indifferent in the EP7 tea party and why Kyrie trusted Beatrice's word, because she knew all these stuff beforehand.

If Battler did not return, Kyrie will not get close to Shannon and knew her plan. If Battler return one year earlier, Shannon did not need to ask Kyrie for Battler's return.


Okay, enough bullshiting

Prediction for EP8's content:

-Amakusa is Battler, so only Battler returned

-Focus is on Battler's family, the tragedy is prevented by Rudolf revealing Battler's birth

-Okonogi's ass kicked hard

[Renall]

Again, keep in mind that:

• We don't know there was any baby (Beatrice-2 makes absolutely no mention of it to Rosa at a time when she should have recently given birth).
• We don't know if it was really given to Natsuhi (Kinzo's behavior in that scene is odd and there is the red that he never trusted her).
• We don't know that she really threw it off a cliff even if she did reject it (inconsistent testimony from Natsuhi).
• If the baby existed and did fall, there is no evidence that it survived (and Natsuhi asserts it couldn't have, but admittedly what does she know).
• There is absolutely nothing which identifies who the baby would be other than the word of Genji and Nanjo (both repeated liars and grossly unreliable). If the baby existed and even if it survived, neither Yasu nor Lion have any way of knowing they really are that child other than being told they are.

Given what has been said about furniture, I wonder why Yasu would get such a complex over a genuine accident.

I mean... furniture is like a character of sorts, either a role played or an imagined construct. Yasu was well aware of this as it was basically her idea in the first place. Logically, if she starts thinking of herself as "furniture" it means she believes she's nothing more than an actor-in-role or a fictional construct. I'll assume she didn't suddenly become aware that she was in a book, which leaves me with the idea that she realized she was actually "playing a role."

Well, what role can she be playing? The role of a servant? That wouldn't give her a furniture complex, she's already been doing that for a while and doesn't seem to mind it. The role of the family head? She seems competent enough at that and just wants to keep it quiet and let Krauss have it officially.

But you know what would make me feel like she does, in her situation? Finding out I'm just being used because it's convenient to Genji (and/or Nanjo/Kumasawa). Having my insecurities soothed by people I trust assuring me that I'm somebody special when I'm actually just being built up to make somebody else feel better or get somebody some money. That I convinced myself I'd have to give up on two consecutive romances because I thought I was related to them.

You want a motive to go psycho, there's one.

[witchfan]

Can I still insist you summarise your predictions? I would be somewhat disappointed if you don't, Renall... :-/

[Renall]

Eh there's nothing that substantial to it. Author Theory, Fictional Shkanon Only, Battler's alive, etc. I don't have some blueprint of where I think ep8 will go, other than guessing there will be a lot of Ange since it parallels ep4.

I have no comprehensive theories about the murders within the games because I really don't care about them and I don't think figuring out exactly how everything went down is really the most thematically important thing. Will's answers, even the non-answers, are good enough for me.