Hyouka - General Discussion

[Hiroi Sekai]

Different strokes, different folks. Still, I am a little surprised to see how much the balance tips for this series. Compared to everything else this season, this is one of MY favourites so far.

But hey, can't even judge until it's over, so who knows.

[felix]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

[...] this is one of MY favourites so far.

Same.

Originally Posted by papermario13689

But hey, can't even judge until it's over, so who knows.

I can. =P Just judge what you got...

[Triple_R]

I certainly can see where Kaioshin and Reckoner are coming from.

Hyou-Ka has what I would call "subtle hooks". Yes, there's "Dem Eyes", and various vivacious visual flourishes, but that's not what I'm talking about. As great as those are, the novelty of them can wear off after awhile.


What I find with Hyou-Ka, particularly in this third episode, is that it has this way of mysteriously implying that there's much more here than what meets the eye. I'm not talking about the episodic mysteries, which tend to be nice side-attractions at most. I'm talking about this aura of mystery surrounding the Classics Club in general.


This situation between Eru and her Uncle really is pretty darn weird. 45 years is a long time. Why the writer went with such a long span of time is intriguing to me, in and of itself. I think a couple other posters here alluded to the possibility of "magical realism" in this show, and I'm thinking that something like that, or close to it, might be at play here. I don't expect anything supernatural (although I wouldn't be surprised to see it, either), but I do think that the mystery of the Classics Club could be something pretty big and impressive.

I say that because of the care I see in the writing of this show. Part of the reason why I went with "Smooth" as the one word to sum up Hyou-Ka's strengths is the meticulous care I see in how this show is developing its characters, and moving its plot along. It's very, well, smooth. Not exactly exciting, but impressively handled without a sense of uneven pacing or jarring scene transitions.


But again, I can see how some wouldn't like the show. Those "subtle hooks" either drag you in, or they don't. If they don't, "Dem Eyes" and the visuals alone might lose their effect after awhile. Right now, it's those "subtle hooks" that intrigue me the most. I can't help but shake this feeling that Houtaro has gotten himself into far more than he's bargained for, and that he's in for quite a ride...


I should say that I'm not familiar with the light novels themselves, so this is largely speculative on my part.

[blaze0041]

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[Hiroi Sekai]

I can. =P Just judge what you got...

I guess we're different then.
You know, since shows that start off boring for me sometimes turn out to be my favourites.

[Hyper]

I wonder if Hyouka's lack of "early hook" have anything to do with the fact that it's a "traditional" novel rather than a light novel. Target audience is a little different. As we all know, light novel readers tends to be an extension of manga readers. For a manga, the hook has to appear by the first chapter. For example, compare this to a kind-of-similar-genre Iris Zero,

Spoiler for Iris Zero beginning.:

that story have the heroine "ask the MC out" within the first ten pages, and by the end of chapter one, she was already following him around even without any solid connection between them yet (different class, not sharing a club, etc.)

If Hyouka want to be like that, then Eru would have to say "please help me recovery my lost memory" within halfway through the first episode. Maybe right after Houtara solved the locked room mystery.
However, the usual novel format is a little different, at least IMO, that their readers does not expect that kind of sudden impact. The author actually have something like half a book or more to convince the reader to keep on reading, so the "hook" can be slow rolling. Turning that into an anime, and we have a problem: anime audiences are closer to that of manga, and an episode is more like a manga chapter. People expectation can be, as relentlessflame put it, "You have 24 minutes to impress me. 3..2..1..Go." You cannot say they're wrong expecting that either, because that's how anime format is.

That's why the plot is ramping up at this point, and even those who find the show "kinda boring" at the beginning is now appreciating it. Now, for people who find it "absolutely boring" at the beginning or "still boring" at this point, I think this is not your cup of tea.

Me? I watched every fansub group at least once, and cannot wait for the next episode

[TinyRedLeaf]

This thread, like that for Tasogare Otome X Amnesia, is so full of references to source material that it's impossible for an anime-only viewer like me to avoid stepping on landmines. I've been avoiding both threads as far as possible, for the sake of my own enjoyment.

That aside, all this talk about a lack of a "hook" only convinces me that too many viewers have very unrealistic expectations about what constitutes a "strong" introduction to an anime series. It reminds me of the discussion in the It gets better, I swear thread in the General Anime subforum.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I don't see why it's a "cliche". And "strong", as I'm sure we'd all eventually agree, is subjective. It doesn't take flashy animation or adrenaline-pumping action to hook me to a story, yet that is exactly the kind of introduction that a lot of viewers expect, I find.

And it's one of the reasons, I've observed, that some people overlook Haibane Renmei. There were even some who dropped the series too early despite claiming to like fly-on-the-wall realism. Too bad. It isn't until the last third of the series that everything clicks together. And when it finally does, wow.

Replace the names of series as necessary, and you get my general opinion of such discussions here. In short, it's only the third episode of a potentially larger story. I completely fail to see how we can say this series lacks a "strong" hook given the relative lack of perspective and hindsight.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

This thread, like that for Tasogare Otome X Amnesia, is so full of references to source material that it's impossible for an anime-only viewer like me to avoid stepping on landmines. I've been avoiding both threads as far as possible, for the sake of my own enjoyment.

That aside, all this talk about a lack of a "hook" only convinces me that too many viewers have very unrealistic expectations about what constitutes a "strong" introduction to an anime series. It reminds me of the discussion in the It gets better, I swear thread in the General Anime subforum.


Replace the names of series as necessary, and you get my general opinion of such discussions here. In short, it's only the third episode of a potentially larger story. I completely fail to see how we can say this series lacks a "strong" hook given the relative lack of perspective and hindsight.

You know, if you're going to talk down about people, especially in a completely unrelated thread about having unrealistic expectations, presenting your meta-opinion about this discussion, it'd be nice to at least discuss in the context of the actual show rather than a generic "it gets better" argument. It comes across as saying that people are watching a show wrong, and that might be true, but the problem is that this argument kind be applied to any show. If you are fair enough to give every show that pops up this kind of leeway, that good for you. But you can't expect everyone to do this. Even if I were to like a show, I'd never use such an argument towards someone that doesn't to get them to watch it. I'd have to espouse the show's own merits.

People are talking about their thoughts on three episodes, not the whole series. I've always said that if a show does something worthy, I'll give them credit for it then, and not a moment earlier. Now, we can discuss that perhaps, in someone's opinion, that this show deserves it now and I can accept that. But people can only discuss us as they see it thus far and not on some pie on the sky proposition.

Everyone has different expectations of a narrative-- the degree to which a story introduces its settings and characters. Whether or not Hyou-ka has done that is up for debate, but let's not dismiss the criticism that easily. You may think it's too early for this, but I feel these kinds of things start from the very first second.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

This thread, like that for Tasogare Otome X Amnesia, is so full of references to source material that it's impossible for an anime-only viewer like me to avoid stepping on landmines. I've been avoiding both threads as far as possible, for the sake of my own enjoyment.

Eh? I don't think there are many people here who have read the source, and I've been reading all the posts and haven't seen any spoilers. Maybe I'm going blind because I'm a bit immune to spoilers after all the years of having shows ruined for me (), but if you do see any source material spoilers please report it. There should be no spoilers in this thread.

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Eh? I don't think there are many people here who have read the source, and I've been reading all the posts and haven't seen any spoilers. Maybe I'm going blind because I'm a bit immune to spoilers after all the years of having shows ruined for me (), but if you do see any source material spoilers please report it. There should be no spoilers in this thread.

Really? Even with spoiler tags?

If that's the case then good thing I haven't posted any of it here.

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

For those who want to see the episode included with volume 3 of the manga, I have news. Episode 11.5, the pool episode, will be streamed through ustream on 7/7 at midnight.

11.5? So it won't be counted as an episode kinda like Fam?

Originally Posted by blaze0041

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Nice!

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by rulfo

11.5? So it won't be counted as an episode kinda like Fam?

It's an anime-original episode that takes place between episodes 11 and 12 chronologically, so naming it 11.5 is the best option. Other shows have done the .5 when it fits in-between episodes (or even halving episodes in the case of Kami Nomi). It'll be considered an episode, but it likely won't be necessary to the overall plot.

Also, if anyone's curious, the character designs for Houtarou, Eru, Satoshi, and Mayaka have been updated to feature something some people will like, and what others will be highly annoyed at.

[rulfo]

Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't notice it back then.

[Kismet-chan]

The full version of the OP is really great. <3

[Archon_Wing]

The OP is sweet; Chouchou needs to sing more OPs. They sang Kamisama no Memochou's which was one of my top 2011 OPs

[Arturia Polaris]

I thought Choucho did covers for other OPs on niconico? That's what propelled her to stardom.

In any case, she surely has gained recognition now after KamiMemo and Hyou-Ka

Niker

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I think part of the issue is a matter of faith that the show will get better and eventually go somewhere interesting.

The stuff I liked about the show was present in the first episode. I did have a couple fears about how the show might go wrong, but episodes two and three dispelled them.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Essentially some people ask for a little bit more out of the shows they are watching then just pretty visuals. Some people can get by on this, others such as myself need to be able to relate to the characters and the circumstances they are placed in order to have a reason to continue watching or to direct praise towards a show. It is regrettable that in my opinion the show made no great stride to achieve this humble expectation in it's early going.

You know, I have an ever so slight issue with the binary distinction you appear to be implying here, and not just because the tone of the paragraph is somewhat smug. The people I know who are watching the show are watching on more than just visuals and blind faith.

The most notable feature of this show for me is the way the understated yet very real personality clash between Oreki and Eru plays out. And oddly enough, I find myself siding with Ms. Quietly Enthusiastic here. Leading a relaxed, laid back existence should not mean trying to avoid being social and participating in things. Course, as Fome points out, there's also the angle of whether Oreki is actually all that pro-lazy or if he just styles himself that way. (I’m also shipping him and Eru but that’s a different matter entirely.)

As for the characters and their situation being relatable… well, I’m a laid back kind of guy who nonetheless has amanged to achieve a lot and therefore am in contact with lots of high achievers. To say that I can related to feeling like the odd one out around enthusiastic people is a bit of an understatement. Eru? Strip away the quiet, polite Japanese girl aspect of her and I’m sure I knew someone like her in high school. I even have a name and face in mind.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Hyou-Ka on the other hand really didn't offer up much about it's characters or really much to say about them in the first episode other than Eru has "Dem Eyes" and Houtaro is lazy, and that in my opinion just shouldn't happen if a show expects to hook more than the usual crowd so to speak.

Not only did it apparently say a lot more to me than that, it also reminded me of why I became a fan of KyoAni’s shows more than five years ago. It has the brand’s signature strengths. Which is good for the show's chances since my experience with the fanbase for KyoAni’s shows is that it’s not static, small, or narrow.

[Sylphic]

Originally Posted by Niker117

I thought Choucho did covers for other OPs on niconico? That's what propelled her to stardom.

In any case, she surely has gained recognition now after KamiMemo and Hyou-Ka

Niker

No. She's a fairly renowned Vocaloid cover singer.

The kamimemo OP actually didn't catch on. it did seem like it sold too well. I've always been wondering why Nagi from supercell caught on but not choucho even though they have the same origin.

She's not a star yet, but this OP will be her ticket to fame!

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Sylphic

No. She's a fairly renowned Vocaloid cover singer.

The kamimemo OP actually didn't catch on. it did seem like it sold too well. I've always been wondering why Nagi from supercell caught on but not choucho even though they have the same origin.

She's not a star yet, but this OP will be her ticket to fame!

KamiMemo didn't catch on in general.

Also, the difference between choucho and Nagi is supercell. Considering how popular supercell is, just working with them boosts Nagi's popularity far more than just her singing talent itself.

[Triple_R]

On the topic of Oreki's "laziness", or rather energy conservation strategy.


I think one of two things is true about him:

1. Though he'd be loath to admit it, Oreki really would like to be "happily active" like a lot of his peers. However, he's sincerely not interested in much of what his peers are interested in - For example, he probably has little interest in sports. So lacking anything that interests him, he adopts his energy conservation approach to life. In fairness to him, it makes some sense - If there's nothing that you're passionate about, why exert any more effort than the bare minimum required in any given situation?

So what Eru has brought into Oreki's life is something that he can gradually become passionate about. She herself was likely intriguingly different to Oreki, and now some of the mysteries surrounding her and the Classics Club has gained Oreki's interest.


2. Oreki really was perfectly content to lead a minimalist existence his whole life, but he has a strong moral core that has been stirred by Eru, particularly her situation with her Uncle. This caused him to put aside his minimalist approach to follow his conscience. It helps that he probably finds Eru attractive.


Either way, I suspect that Oreki's character arc will be like a blending of Kyon and Tomoya's - Starts off vaguely anti-social, cynical, and/or emo, but slowly finds things to channel his youthful zeal into due to meeting people who add a spark of inspiration into his life.

[NCP]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Hyou-Ka on the other hand really didn't offer up much about it's characters or really much to say about them in the first episode other than Eru has "Dem Eyes" and Houtaro is lazy, and that in my opinion just shouldn't happen if a show expects to hook more than the usual crowd so to speak. That is the key difference between Hyou-Ka and some of the other dialogue driven shows I've mentioned.

This is a lazy exaggeration. If all a person was able to learn about Houtaro’s character from the first episode was that he is lazy, then that person is either not paying attention to the show or seeing only what he wants to see. We learned quite a few things about Houtaro from the first episode. In fact, we learned something interesting about him in the first two minutes.

Spoiler for Wall of text:

If you’ll recall the beginning of the episode, you’ll remember Houtaro giving his speech about “rosy” and “gray” colored lives. At the end of his monologue, he remarks that the “gray” way of living might be quite the sad or lonely choice. As Satoshi then points out, Houtaro’s description of a “gray” life describes Houtaro perfectly. In other words, Houtaro believes that his way of living is lonely. This clearly strikes a chord with Houtaro considering how he looks away and gets annoyed with Satoshi for pointing it out. So why does Houtaro live a “gray” life if he finds it lonely? That would be because of his adherence to his motto. “If I don’t have to do it I won’t. If I have to do it, make it quick.” So basically, it’s a declaration of laziness.

In the very next scene we learn something else about Houtaro. Which is that he is quite open minded to other ways of living. When passing by the students running he salutes their energy expenditure. Odd for someone so committed to saving energy, huh? We then find out that he does not, in fact, believe that saving energy (living a “gray” life) is the superior option. He doesn’t ridicule those who prefer to live a “rose” colored life. He simply stays true to his motto.

The next couple of scenes focus on Houtaro meeting Eru and the mysteries. But the most interesting part of these scenes concerning Houtaro’s character takes place when he, Eru, and Satoshi are standing in front of the bulletin board. Houtaro becomes overwhelmed with the amount of latent energy emanating from all the board’s fliers. So much so, in fact, that he imagines himself being drowned in a sea of kanji for the word “rose”. This scene suggests that Houtaro’s laziness is deeply ingrained within his psyche. In other words, it isn’t a habit that can be easily broken. Another interesting revelation comes when the group is walking home. Houtaro is about to bid farewell to his low-power lifestyle when he relents by saying that he will fight with all his strength to maintain his energy saving ways. This is interesting because it implies Houtaro is willing to expend large amounts of energy in order to stay true to his motto. This begs the question of just how lazy Houtaro truly is. If he was really so lazy wouldn’t he simply not involve himself with Eru, thus not expending energy at all?

Finally, in the last scene with Satoshi and Houtaro walking home, we see the immediate effect that Eru has had on Houtaro. When Satoshi asks Houtaro why he went through the trouble of creating the fake mystery, he responds by saying that the music room was too far. In other words, he falls back on the second half of his motto; “If I have to do it, make it quick”. As Satoshi points out, though, it sounds like an excuse. The interesting thing here is that he considers running around with Eru something he has to do. As Satoshi pointed out, he could have simply refused to help her in the first place, which is what Satoshi says Houtaro would normally do. A few lines later we learn that the reason Houtaro didn’t refuse to help Eru was because he didn’t want to disappoint her.

So from all this, several conclusions can be drawn.

1. Houtaro believes that living a “gray” colored life can be quite lonely.
2. Houtaro lives a “gray” colored life. The first point implies that he may not be satisfied with this life.
3. Houtaro lives this way because of his adherence to his motto, which is simply a roundabout way of saying he is very lazy.
4. Houtaro does not believe his way of living is best. He is open to the idea of living an active or “rosy” lifestyle.
5. After meeting Eru, he has a desire to lead a more active lifestyle. This is made clear when he states that he did not want to reject or disappoint her.
6. This desire, though, is hampered by his commitment to his motto, which is to continue being lazy.
7. Ironically, in following his motto by creating the fake mystery, Houtaro likely spent more energy than he would have by solving the music room mystery. This implies that laziness is not a fundamental part of Houtaro’s being, but is instead something he has created within his own mind.

Looking at these points it becomes quite clear that there is more to Houtaro than just being “lazy”. He is a conflicted character whose decision making is being influenced by several competing motivations. In fact, he may not be truly “lazy” at all, considering how much effort he puts into maintaining his of a “low-power” lifestyle. I’d say that that is quite a bit of characterization and development from just the first episode, and the subsequent episodes continue to build off the same ideas.

EDIT:
Just saw Triple_R’s post. I think we make similar points. I would say that your first option is more likely considering how Houtaro feels about the “gray” colored lifestyle. Also, I disagree somewhat with the idea that Houtaro is not passionate about anything. This implies that he has no beliefs that he stands for. If that were so, his life would be better described as “colorless” rather than “gray” wouldn’t it? Instead I think that he is, in a way, passionate about his low-energy lifestyle. This is supported by how much effort he puts into maintaining it. So in other words, he is very committed to not being committed to anything, haha.