[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[erneiz_hyde]

Are you refuting GreyZone or do you want more example of how those reds can be twisted?

[GreyZone]

No one escapes, all die. ...in this fictional forgery. Even Eva dies sometimes, although she is supposedly alive.

.........My entire family...never came home from Rokkenjima that day...!! And I don't include Eva because I am still mad at her and my Onii-chan did not come back "that day", but many years later instead.

This game will not have a happy ending. This is a fictional story about Kyrie, Rudolph and Battler killing everyone else, after all!

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

No one escapes, all die. ...in this fictional forgery. Even Eva dies sometimes, although she is supposedly alive.

Who cared what the white text say, if I have a RED statement about Eva and everybody to be dead?

No one escapes, all die.

Or the red truth is false, or game 3 and the magic ending but:

The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

This game will not have a happy ending. This is a fictional story about Kyrie, Rudolph and Battler killing everyone else, after all!

[/QUOTE]

The Kyrie\Rudolf didn't even have a happy ending and it wasn't even a game, jsut a Bern troll story, why would it refer to it? This red was used at the end of episode 7.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Interesting. I wonder... what about Ep 3? The epitaph was supposedly solved there... unless the point is it was never solved and actually Eva solving it was a mere fantasy scene and Yasu lead her there...

I always considered that Eva-Beato could also be seen as "the true culprit" approaching her and basically using her as a disguise to further commit murders, as an alternate solution to EP3. That would make EP3 more or less a dark version of the tragic EP5, Eva being used as a scapegoat (just much more acceptable than Natsuhi).

I would in that way clearly separate "the true culprit" from "Yasu", since the murderous culprit is as much a fictional character, distilled from the real person's murderous fantasies.

I've hard time thinking Battler would be willing to accept that someone could kill Krauss and then to go on with taunting Natsuhi.

Well, doesn't that pretty much hint into the direction that the child is actually more or less male?

I never liked much the idea that in the golden land it would be okay for the 3 parts of Yasu to have 3 different love stories because well, yes, Yasu in truth it's only 1 person and she should choose.

Well, that is the horrible side of the whole Golden Land idea that Erika also comments on in the manga, which I like that they included it. The whole idea of the Golden Land is sweet and nice if there was no people outside suffering because of it, but it is basically saying, "We're here in this wonderful place where everybody is happy, but Ange can't join us," without ever giving a proper explanation to her why.

Thinking about it, this would also explain why she put the feelings between Kanon and Jessica into the forgeries. There never needed to be a betrayal of Jessica where she actually thought Kanon to be a separate person, but to the outside world there needed to be. The illusion of there being a person for George and one for Jessica makes them both end up happy if they die together, for the outside observer.
This was probably the way Yasu saw it, even though it's highly twisted.

George and Jessica knowing about it actually would explain why there was a battle over the headship in EP4, if it was actually over not the position but the actual head of the family.
If we consider Jessica's and George's answers then, it would also be a declaration of George to kill Jessica to have "the head" for himself and of Jessica to "be okay with being killed out of moral reasons, but not giving up so easily." That would leave room for the interpretation of this very scene being "the love duel" and the one shooting George would be Jessica in self-defense.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

There is no connection to that child with any character. And it is told by a eye witness, who killed it that that kid is dead. That confession is made in the real world to the detective, and not in a magical perpective by fictional characters.

The fact alone that the culprit is using the name "Beatrice", while it is being said that names can only be used by people who own it, is actually already strong foreshadowing of the solution. Like Erika in the manga version of EP8 says, only two characters have been described as being able to carry a multitude of names on the island. This does not mean that other people can't, only that, within the boundaries of necessary foreshadowing, only these two characters come into consideration.

There doesn't need to be an obvious connection with that child, this is still a mystery story that follows classic orthodox mystery tropes.
We know of the story of a child existing from EP1 onwards, when Natsuhi asks Genji if there was a child and he answers that he "never heard of such a story," which is avoiding the question. It is also discussed in EP2, when Beato arrives as a guest and the parents discuss if this is the illegitimate child whose existence they always feared. It is also largely hinted at with the servants never talking about serving "Kinzo" in the present tense, but only "the master of the house."

The confession about the child done by Natsuhi says nothing about the child's life or death status. She said that she clearly saw the dead servant and that she ASSUMED the child to be dead as well. She never went to check.

If there is red truth about a statement, everything otherwise is a lie, even if it is implied with white text afterwise.

Yes, but there is nothing that says in Red that people only carry one name.

What about ep 3, where both Shannon and Kanon are dead at the beggining?

Using what Erika said in the EP8 manga, その二人名は死んでいる！It's something that is hard to translate into English though, considering that one of the formal counters for people in Japanese is also the Kanji for "name."

And the Red was already adressed by GreyZone but I also want to give my spin on it:
.........My entire family...never came home from Rokkenjima that day...!! Because, when Ange talks about her family, she is clearly only referring to the people she regards as her family, which is Battler, Kyrie, Rudolph and Maria.

This game will not have a happy ending.
One solution would be: The game never had a happy ending.
And another is also the unlikeliness of being able to call the end to Umineko a HAPPY ENDING. Everybody died, except an amnesiac Battler, who regards himself as another person entirely, and Ange, who changed her name and became famous but also got the same cancer as Eva. It's entirely possible that Tohya died in the last scene of EP8 (up to interpretation) and Yukari probably won't live that much longer either. All the others died in an explosion or were possibly murdered brutally, except Eva, who died of cancer and what is likely a paranoid schizophrenia induced heart attack, believing that everybody in the world hated her.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Who cared what the white text say, if I have a RED statement about Eva and everybody to be dead?

No one escapes, all die.

Or the red truth is false, or game 3 and the magic ending but:

The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

It is explained in the EP8 manga that there are two kinds of Red Truth (which most readers already considered but is now written out).
There is one that is about death status and circumstances of death, crime scenes and alibis. This Red only applies to the individual game in which it is spoken and has no bearing on being true outside of that game.
The other one is about personalities, behavior and the number of people on the island. This one is shared by all games and can also be considered true outside of the catbox.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Who cared what the white text say, if I have a RED statement about Eva and everybody to be dead?

No one escapes, all die.

Or the red truth is false, or game 3 and the magic ending but:

The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

And? There are "clues": In "Alliance of the Golden Witch", everyone died. There is one example where everyone died, and no one returned.
Here is my blue: Do you have any solid proof of 100% credibility, that that statement doesn't refer to the forgery "Alliance of the Golden Witch", or a similar one, but to, as you claim, the "real" world? If not, then this blue truth is proof that the meaning of red truth can be interpreted in more than one way and is therefore only defined as absolute, if no one can find a counter example. If someone does find even just 1 counter example, then using the red as definite proof is invalid.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The Kyrie\Rudolf didn't even have a happy ending and it wasn't even a game, jsut a Bern troll story, why would it refer to it? This red was used at the end of episode 7.

When she said that statement, she was opening a new gameboard.

I apply "Hempel's Raven" here:
There was only one gameboard shown that she ever controlled and that is the so-called "troll story". Do you find any clues, that she may refer to anything else other than this "troll game"?

As long as you cannot counter these blue truths, all your arguments using red truths, that have at least 1 counter example in them, become invalid.

[jTiKey]

The confession about the child done by Natsuhi says nothing about the child's life or death status. She said that she clearly saw the dead servant and that she ASSUMED the child to be dead as well. She never went to check.

The only reason why Natsuhi believed the "man from 19 years" was alive was the phone call, cuz she feld sorry for what she did.

The is no reason for anyone to save a baby Lion and hide it from Kinzo.
There is no reason for a child to fall down a clif, where 2 people died already, and survive!

what Erika said in the EP8 manga

Who cares what a fictional witch Erika has to say in white\black text?

It is explained in the EP8 manga that there are two kinds

Answer please my question. I didn't ask you about EP8 manga spoilers. I want a Shkannon solution of the 3 game using ONLY the 1-4 games.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Answer please my question. I didn't ask you about EP8 manga spoilers. I want a Shkannon solution of the 3 game using ONLY the 1-4 games.

"Beatrice" is the murderer and uses the aliases "Shannon" and "Kanon". Everything else is as the solutions that are known. "Shanon" and "Kanon" can't die, because they are nothing more than aliases and don't exist beyond the acknowledgment of the other characters, and the disguise etc. So them "dying" means nothing more than "discarding that identity".


Oh, and "Answer please my question"! Or rather my blue truth from my last post!

[Renall]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

You know, the existence of "Beatrice" has been foreshadowed in every game multiple times. In the murder case that is also the title of the murderer.

More to the point, Battler's entire thesis in the first four episodes is "there isn't a witch, the culprit is human." Thus, if Beatrice presents a culprit "Beatrice," then the proper formulation of the culprit's identity according to Battler's thesis would be "'Beatrice,' the human culprit posing or being represented as a witch." And this character did exist, because they were the one killing people. But we quickly learned from the red that the culprit had to be one of the other people on the island. The culprit was therefore shown, because the culprit was (at least) one of those people. Ergo, "'Beatrice,' the human culprit" existed, we just weren't told outright who they are.

But since Shannon/Kanon culprit can solve Legend, one can at least at that point make the argument that "Beatrice" is one of them.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The only reason why Natsuhi believed the "man from 19 years" was alive was the phone call, cuz she feld sorry for what she did.

The is no reason for anyone to save a baby Lion and hide it from Kinzo.
There is no reason for a child to fall down a clif, where 2 people died already, and survive!

Yasu doesn't actually have to have been the baby. The only thing that's necessary as a precondition is that he/she believes what Genji has told him/her about that. It's entirely possible the "real" Lion died and was just replaced by somebody else whom Genji groomed to appear to be the baby for Kinzo's sake. Basically, the baby living via miracle or dying and being replaced are both possibilities, and either one being possible makes the implausibility of the baby's survival irrelevant.

In 1986, there was a person who believed themselves to be the illegitimate child of Kinzo and a person named Beatrice, a group of people who feared that child existed, and Natsuhi who knew that some sort of child existed in the past and couldn't independently verify whether it had survived or died. Whether any of that was actually true doesn't matter, because only Genji would know and we have no idea whether we can trust his word on pretty much anything.

Also, of course Natsuhi herself believes she killed them both. She's completely overcome with guilt for doing it. She's not going to equivocate and say "well maybe the baby survived," because that would be trying to mitigate responsibility for the act. And if nothing else, it seems pretty clear that Natsuhi considers herself fully responsible for it.

[jTiKey]

Do you have any solid proof of 100% credibility

Seems, you don't even know what blue truth is. You can use it to build theories, not asking proofs from me.

Here is how it is done:

There are general statements in the context of the red truth.

These red truth were used one after another:

Ushiromiya Battler has a sin
Because of your sin, people die.(This is referring to Battler's sin.)
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
No one escapes, all die.

Battler has a sin in all games. Because of the "general sin", great many people die: no one escapes, all die (why?) because of his sin, which is the core of all the tragedy. which is implied in ALL games.

So, in general, there is nothing in these red statement that reffers to something local, but only general (the sin, and people death) so there is no reason for "no one escapes" to be local.

Do you find any clues, that she may refer to anything else other than this "troll game"?

The ending of the 4th game, where both Bern and Lambda said the same thing?

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

"Shanon" and "Kanon" can't die

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

[jTiKey]

In 1986, there was a person who believed themselves to be the illegitimate child of Kinzo and a person named Beatrice, a group of people who feared that child existed, and Natsuhi who knew that some sort of child existed in the past and couldn't independently verify whether it had survived or died. Whether any of that was actually true doesn't matter, because only Genji would know and we have no idea whether we can trust his word on pretty much anything.

If it could be anyone, that doesn't give Skannon any profit.

ADD: Actually, all I wan't to know, who didn't continue the murders in EP3 and why. You can name anyone from the list, except the one, that are crossed with a red line, because they are announsed dead in red before any other murder:

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Seems, you don't even know what blue truth is. You can use it to build theories, not asking proofs from me.

Here is how it is done:
These red truth were used one after another:

Ushiromiya Battler has a sin
Because of your sin, people die.(This is referring to Battler's sin.)
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.
No one escapes, all die.

This was said in the 4th episode, where everyone did in fact die. So your point? Just because "Battler has a sin" in every episode does not prove that "no one escapes" in every episode.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

You have not given proof, that "Kanon dies" = "The identity of Kanon stops existing" is wrong. You also didn't explain how the "death of an alias" is defined. So my argument still stands. The murderer took the identity of "Beatrice" and continued with the murders.
EDIT: thank you hagurama, your argument is much better than mine.


And that chart? To use your own arguments against you: They are nothing more than "white text".

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The is no reason for anyone to save a baby Lion and hide it from Kinzo.
There is no reason for a child to fall down a clif, where 2 people died already, and survive!

There is no reason for a child not to survive either.
If you want to say it is unlikely, yes, maybe, but the story tells us the baby survived and we have to believe it. Also, the only thing your screenshots proof is that Natsuhi believed the baby to have died as well, it's argument against argument.

Who cares what a fictional witch Erika has to say in white\black text?

This was said by the detective Erika, not the witch Erika.
Also, I could argue, who cares what a fictional witch Beatrice has to say in Red about a fictional game.
Since this is a story that is set up to be solved, we have to assume that most parts of the story are meant as hints.

Answer please my question. I didn't ask you about EP8 manga spoilers. I want a Shkannon solution of the 3 game using ONLY the 1-4 games.

The person behind Shannon and Kanon faked his/her death (as possible in EP1 and 2) by bribing certain people on the island (hinted in EP2 and 3) and using trickery. That person then used the confusion caused by this, along with several elements he/she had set up before (like Maria trusting her, shown from EP1 onward) to lure people out of their safe heaven and kill them. Eva was used as a scapegoat (like Natsuhi and Rosa in EP1 and 2). That person was in possession of the gold, making them the true heir (shown by Beatrice handing the ring to Eva in EP3), and since Kinzo can be seen as a transferable status (EP4) this person would be both Beatrice and the head of the house.
The only person who fits everything that has been ascribed to Beatrice and her furniture for EP1-4 is only two people on all of Rokkenjima, and incidentally one of them is never seen dead by the detective.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

So, in general, there is nothing in these red statement that reffers to something local, but only general (the sin, and people death) so there is no reason for "no one escapes" to be local.[/COLOR]

Only it does because (a) it is spoken within the confines of said game (EP4) and (b) we already know that Eva escaped the island and lives till 1998.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

Counter: Ushiromiya Battler is dead!
Still, Hachijo Tohya lives in Ushiromiya Battler's body.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

If it could be anyone, that doesn't give Skannon any profit.

Only it does, because Kinzo, at the end of his life, was only searching for a way to make up for his sins and thought that would be forever lost. Genji guiding Shannon and Kanon towards solving the epitaph and making them the next heir and Beatrice also helps in paying back the debt he feels towards Kinzo.

EDIT:
Actually, the idea of a person just impersonating their role on Rokkenjima is brought up as soon as EP2, when Rosa accuses Battler of being an impostor who killed the real Battler or was bought by Rudolph and Kyrie to cash in on the inheritance.

[jTiKey]

This was said in the 4th episode, .

There is no "general game". All red truth was used in different games, thought there is one truth.

"The identity of Kanon stops existing"

It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

And that chart? To use your own arguments against you: They are nothing more than "white text".

So, you can't. I understand.

[jTiKey]

There is no reason for a child not to survive either.

2 adults didn't survive. Why would a baby survive a fall? And it isn't just a fall. Who knows how much time passed after they were found and take to a hospital.

This was said by the detective Erika, not the witch Erika.

There was a game in EP8? Erika was a detective?

bribing certain people

Any hints, that any of the characters wound KILL for money?

we already know that Eva escaped the island and lives till 1998.

We also know and see that Kinzo is alive long 4 episodes. Know what, in EP 5 the red truth denies his existence!

Counter: Ushiromiya Battler is dead!
Still, Hachijo Tohya lives in Ushiromiya Battler's body.

Red truth = Truth
EP8 = lie.

Red Truth > everything else.
Magic Ending = Lie

because Kinzo

lol. The kinzo who didn't accept even Natsuhi, would give everything to a non-gender servant?

he idea of a person just impersonating their role on Rokkenjima

It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

[GreyZone]

Ok let's end this. Have a taste of your own logic!

"When I speak the truth, I will use red.
Everything I speak in red is the truth "

This statement was said before the red truth was in effect, therefore it has no value as red truth and therefore every red truth has no value.

Red truth had no definition at that time, so the definition, that was in red, was as much worth as white text. Therefore all red truth = white text

=> No truth exists, as everything can be doubted.

Bam, check mate. Circular logic at its best!

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

2 adults didn't survive. Why would a baby survive a fall? And it isn't just a fall. Who knows how much time passed after they were found and take to a hospital.

The baby was cushioned by the servant who held it in her arms.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/14/ju...y-mother-fall/
Weirder things have happened.
Also, Natsuhi apparently immediately informed Genji about it, who probably took direct measures.

Any hints, that any of the characters wound KILL for money?

The accomplices don't need to kill for money, the murders in the games are carried out by "the true culprit."

Red truth = Truth
EP8 = lie.

Red Truth > everything else.
Magic Ending = Lie

Going by your logic, everything that is not Red Truth is a lie. Therefore ending at the circular logic that GreyZone mentioned, the Red truth itself is a lie.

lol. The kinzo who didn't accept even Natsuhi, would give everything to a non-gender servant?

If that servant was actually his son/daughter and (in his eye) the spitting image of his lost lover. Natsuhi is nothing more than a selfish, paranoid woman who married into the family, managed to apparently kill or at least endanger his favorite child and is herself unable to produce a proper heir.

It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.

Where is impersonating a person a supernatural agency?
Good to know, if I were to dress up as a woman and fool somebody, I'm automatically a witch

[jTiKey]

Ok let's end this.

Congratulation on you selfproclamed win *slap* *slap*:

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Congratulation on you selfproclamed win *slap* *slap*:

So, you can't [refute it]. I understand.

[jTiKey]

Going by your logic, everything that is not Red Truth is a lie.

Everything that says otherwise, that the red truth states.

If that servant was actually his son/daughter

Erm, few post ago we agreed that it could be anyone, and regardless if Lion actually died or not.

impersonating a person

All those "rolls" and "actors" don't aply to the real world.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

So, you can't [refute it]. I understand.

So as you can't name the culprit of the 3rd game <3