Shounen no Abyss

[Kanon]

I picked it up today and I'm already up to chapter 74, it's just really hard to stop. Will probably be caught up tomorrow. I enjoyed reading your thoughts, frubam.

Spoiler for Spoilers up to chapter 74:

This manga sure has a lot of crazy twists. I knew about the sensei being nuts, and it's part of the reason I picked it up, wow, my expectations were exceeded
I disagree she's a victim of Reiji, she's an adult and could make her own decisions. And her first decision was to sleep with a student who was simply asking for help and to pretty much confine him in her flat. There was something wrong with her from the start. That said, she's such an enjoyable character because of how batshit crazy she is, and because she isn't actually evil.

Speaking of evil, I never saw the twist with Reiji's mom coming. I starting off thinking she was guilt tripping him, but then when she revealed her weakness to Reiji and Gen showed her what she had been doing for him, I felt super bad for her and saw her as the biggest victim in this. Imagine how low my jaw dropped when it was revealed she's an evil manipulative bitch. She's made so many people suffer to get what she wanted. And I'm sure it's not over.

Chako was my favorite for a long while and was definitely the most normal character of the cast. She experienced regular teenage angst, that's it. Too bad that in her case, Reiji definitely did en up fucking up her life. She used to be so happy and energetic... that said, she's looking damn fine for someone with anorexia. She said she's still no match for Nagi but I'd say she's pretty close.

Nagi... not much to say about her because the story hasn't revealed anything yet. She's just a husk. I was happy her meeting with Reiji was no coincidence and it was all part of Nozoe's plan, it made more sense than an idol retiring to the boonies and wanting to kill herself with the first boy she meets (after having sex with him of course). If I had to choose, I'd say I like her though. Great looks and I'm interested in her. I was also really relieved Gen didn't have her gang-raped like I was expecting.

Gen... I just feel sorry for him. He's as much a victim of Yuko as Reiji is, if not more.

Can't wait to find what happens next!

[MK-95-]

Another joins in on the fun huh. Welcome aboard! Haha

This one is certainly a roller coaster because just when you think you've figured something/someone out, another spanner gets thrown into the works and completely changes your interpretation of events.

All I know for certain right now is that everyone, with the exception of Yuko are either victims of each other or circumstance or both and all are seemingly heading towards ruin at this rate. Will we get a happy ending of anyone involved? Idek anymore. What I do know is that Yuko is the common denominator here in mostly everyone's suffering and for them to even have a small chance at happiness, she needs to be dealt with.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by MK-95-

Another joins in on the fun huh. Welcome aboard! Haha

This one is certainly a roller coaster because just when you think you've figured something/someone out, another spanner gets thrown into the works and completely changes your interpretation of events.

All I know for certain right now is that everyone, with the exception of Yuko are either victims of each other or circumstance or both and all are seemingly heading towards ruin at this rate. Will we get a happy ending of anyone involved? Idek anymore. What I do know is that Yuko is the common denominator here in mostly everyone's suffering and for them to even have a small chance at happiness, she needs to be dealt with.

Thanks! I'm not really sure I should use spoiler tags, but just in case...

Spoiler for 92:

All caught up now. With the latest chapter, I'm actually a bit afraid the author is going to try to redeem Yuko by having her become a rape victim. I don't really think so though, the previous flashback showed a hint she was already twisted even before any of that happened. Whatever is going to happen will provide her with a reason to kill that guy, as it's obvious she never attempted to commit lovers' suicide and outright killed her boyfriend, probably with Nozoe's help. I'm expecting it to be a relatively petty reason though. She's definitely also the one who torched her mother's bar.

I'm still not sure what exactly she wants from Reiji, and why she was so deathly scared when her (presumed) brother took Reiji out of town for an afternoon. I don't know why she still keeps Kazu around either now that the jig is up.

As of now, she's definitely the source of all evil, with Nozoe coming in second place since he's the one who put Nagi into Reiji's path after all. I was a bit disappointed Nagi didn't show up in those chapters, except in a gravure photo. I've done a lot of thinking and she's really the one who interests me the most because we know nothing about her and it feels like she can be saved. That said, she's quite an abyss herself. I feel pretty dumb for not seeing how similar Reiji is to her until Gen pointed out he was hollow. Probably because we've known his thoughts and feelings all along. He's not a complete robot who just follows people's commands like her, but he's pretty close.

Chako can also still be saved. Nothing too bad has happened to her. Her friendship with Reiji will never go back to how it was though.

Gen being revealed to be in love with Yuko and projecting those feelings onto Reiji didn't surprise me. If anything, I thought his initial confession was weird, since there were more hints he was infatuated with Yuko.

Shiba hasn't changed one bit. Only a naive boy like Reiji would get fooled. Yuko obviously completely saw through her, and now presumably has her eating out of the palm of her hand.

[MK-95-]

^Agreed. So far, Nagi is the only one who we know next to nothing about. Some light has been shed on everyone else to some extent, but new developments usually alter reader's established perception of them, so that's not as reliable as I'd want it to be.

I'd say Reiji is the character I have the largest grasp on and that's mainly because he's the protagonist and therefore has the most exposure of all the characters in the story.

Of everyone, I think Chako is the least damaged and is the most hopeful to be saved in the end. As for Reiji, Gen, Nagi, Yuko, Shibasawa and Esemori... I starting to think that none of them are going to end this story on a positive note (well Esemori is already done for anyway).

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by MK-95-

Of everyone, I think Chako is the least damaged and is the most hopeful to be saved in the end. As for Reiji, Gen, Nagi, Yuko, Shibasawa and Esemori... I starting to think that none of them are going to end this story on a positive note (well Esemori is already done for anyway).

I think Esemori/Nozoe's story will be the turning point for Reiji. If he still doesn't want to turn his life around that, then he really is hopeless.

Nagi could go either way. I think she has a pretty good chance of making it, but only if Reiji does get his shit together and tries to understand her.

[Kanon]

Spoiler for 93:

Yuko was rescued before anything could happen. They told us she's the cause of the war between the two gangs but none of the specifics. Uryu actually seems like a cool guy, gave Nozoe plenty of chances. Chances Nozoe completely blew up.

Next chapter, either something tragic happens to Yuko, Nozoe simply gets NTR'd, or what he'll witness is her true evil self. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out she instigated the whole war on purpose.

[frubam]

Oh, welcome to the fam Kanon =03.

Originally Posted by Kanon

All caught up now. With the latest chapter, I'm actually a bit afraid the author is going to try to redeem Yuko by having her become a rape victim. I don't really think so though, the previous flashback showed a hint she was already twisted even before any of that happened. Whatever is going to happen will provide her with a reason to kill that guy, as it's obvious she never attempted to commit lovers' suicide and outright killed her boyfriend, probably with Nozoe's help. I'm expecting it to be a relatively petty reason though. She's definitely also the one who torched her mother's bar.

Didn't think much about the bar, since it was during Chako's flashback and monologue, but Yuko torching the bar makes a lot of sense. Wonder what's the story behind that one.

Also I thought the initial lover's suicide story was strange, because the news article said the guy died and she lived, but her reasoning that was stated in the old news article didn't sound in-line with the whole suicide thing that she told Reiji(the time they slept together). Kinda handwaved it off, but if she actually killed that guy, it would def be a reasonable conclusion to the discrepancies of her statements.

Originally Posted by Kanon

As of now, she's definitely the source of all evil, with Nozoe coming in second place since he's the one who put Nagi into Reiji's path after all.

Nozoe evil? I'm rather on the fence about this =0v. On one hand, he certainly instigated the events of the story by sending Nagi, but I can't see him outright sabotaging peoples lives directly like Ms. Shiba has. Now I will say that "I WON!" declaration he did after the Yuko accident makes him suspect of 4D chess-level manipulations no doubt, but I think he also wanted to do something to help Reiji. I would say that the two feelings are not mutually exclusive, and so, at least in that junction, he'd be one of the lesser evils in this story, hell perhaps maybe even its savoir from Reiji's perspective.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Yuko was rescued before anything could happen. They told us she's the cause of the war between the two gangs but none of the specifics. Uryu actually seems like a cool guy, gave Nozoe plenty of chances. Chances Nozoe completely blew up.

At first, it did seem like Yuko made Uryu look like some kind of a**hole bully. Even stranger that she never said anything derogatory about him, but her "tone of voice", and her expressions gave me that impression. But, he is a pretty cool guy. I thought when he saw Yuko with Akira last chp(92) that he, with that cold look of his, would come back for revenge at a later time, but nope, guess he just saw that they were together and decide to leave them alone. Then he gave Akira the chance to take Yuko before he did, even though he fought an entire gang for Yuko's sake. I could have guessed that Uryu was a upright guy, but before, it was harder to grasp when looking at it only from Akira's perspective.

Originally Posted by MK-95-

...but new developments usually alter reader's established perception of them, so that's not as reliable as I'd want it to be.

Yeah, just like with Uryu, so very true. At this point it shouldn't be a surprise; this series has been doing that with almost every character up til this point, but I still am in awe of how the author can change this dynamic multiple times on the same character. Its like they can balance their cruelties with their vulnerabilities at the same time, which can give a shift from, say, "they are evil" to "they were a victim", then they jump to being "evil" again(ofc, using "evil" as a catch-all here). Just wonderful storytelling =03!

Originally Posted by Kanon

Next chapter, either something tragic happens to Yuko, Nozoe simply gets NTR'd, or what he'll witness is her true evil self. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out she instigated the whole war on purpose.

Definitely believe she started that war on purpose now. That look when she asked Akira "what did Uryu say to you?", I knew that, even at this time, she has probably been the instigator of all these events. I'm not sure what's to come. NTR DOES seem likely, like that would really push Akira over the edge, but that might also discount him from having the chance to be Reiji's father. He still a)has to become Reiji's father(unless, well, he ISN'T Reiji's father), b)date Shino'oka(stated this to Chako where he threw up on her, unless, well, Shino'oka WASN'T the girl he dated that looked like Chako), and c)get the idea to escape the town forever. Last thing I recall, he wanted to die and take Yuko with him, but decided not to because of Yuko, so he'll need a catalyst to remove that ideal. Can't wait to see how this upcoming revelation will change the narrative (^,^ )!

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

Definitely believe she started that war on purpose now. That look when she asked Akira "what did Uryu say to you?", I knew that, even at this time, she has probably been the instigator of all these events. I'm not sure what's to come. NTR DOES seem likely, like that would really push Akira over the edge, but that might also discount him from having the chance to be Reiji's father. He still a)has to become Reiji's father(unless, well, he ISN'T Reiji's father), b)date Shino'oka(stated this to Chako where he threw up on her, unless, well, Shino'oka WASN'T the girl he dated that looked like Chako), and c)get the idea to escape the town forever. Last thing I recall, he wanted to die and take Yuko with him, but decided not to because of Yuko, so he'll need a catalyst to remove that ideal. Can't wait to see how this upcoming revelation will change the narrative (^,^ )!

We don't know what will happen in the next chapter but we do know what happens a few years later: Nozoe rescues her during the lover's suicide attempt (which was probably a plan to bring Nozoe back to her) and she's smiling happily, not giving a crap about Uryu dying. It's also when Nozoe tells her he hates her. That's like a decade before Reiji was conceived. If he is the father, and all signs point to yes, it was most likely hate sex after he came back to town temporarily.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Kanon

We don't know what will happen in the next chapter but we do know what happens a few years later: Nozoe rescues her during the lover's suicide attempt (which was probably a plan to bring Nozoe back to her) and she's smiling happily, not giving a crap about Uryu dying. It's also when Nozoe tells her he hates her. That's like a decade before Reiji was conceived. If he is the father, and all signs point to yes, it was most likely hate sex after he came back to town temporarily.

I don't remember the part where he rescues her(but I do remember when Yuko flashbacked to remember Nozoe saying he hated her). When exactly is it shown she does this?

Haha I can't imagine Nozoe having hate sex with Yuko . Man doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. I think it'd be more of "I couldn't forget about you" and Yuko manipulating his emotions, coming on to him, making herself look pitiful, etc.. I also don't recall him coming back temp. He left, and didn't come back until his mother passed to visit her grave, right? Then he saw Reiji.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

I don't remember the part where he rescues her(but I do remember when Yuko flashbacked to remember Nozoe saying he hated her). When exactly is it shown she does this?

It's from there. They're both dripping wet, with Yuko smiling down on him (a pure kind of smile) and him saying he hates her. I don't remember the chapter, I'll try to look it up tomorrow.

Chapter 41 for Yuko smiling and chapter 57 for Nozoe saying he hates her. Both flashbacks are from the scene if you compare.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's from there. They're both dripping wet, with Yuko smiling down on him (a pure kind of smile) and him saying he hates her. I don't remember the chapter, I'll try to look it up tomorrow.

Chapter 41 for Yuko smiling and chapter 57 for Nozoe saying he hates her. Both flashbacks are from the scene if you compare.

AH! I see I see. Completely missed that detail, even after reading it multiple times. Wow. There were even several points in the dialogue in that chapter where he subtly hints at the whole affair. Thought he was only talking about Nagi. And since that Yuko image was before the full Nozoe flashback, I thought it only alluded to how similar they looked and nothing else. Very clever. Appreciate the clarification =03.

[Kanon]

Spoiler for 94:

It's easy to jump to the conclusion that he parents have been whoring Yuko out, but I think it might be more "complicated". If I'm not mistaken, the room she did it with that old man is the one she always went to and wished her mother would never rent. My guess is that after her father beat her really badly in the previous flashback, she decided to move there and is selling her body to the "tenant" (he has the key, after all). Of course both her parents are pieces of shit for letting her do that.

So that's probably been going on for a year now.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for 94:

It's easy to jump to the conclusion that he parents have been whoring Yuko out, but I think it might be more "complicated". If I'm not mistaken, the room she did it with that old man is the one she always went to and wished her mother would never rent. My guess is that after her father beat her really badly in the previous flashback, she decided to move there and is selling her body to the "tenant" (he has the key, after all). Of course both her parents are pieces of shit for letting her do that.
So that's probably been going on for a year now.

Spoiler for 94:

Sounds pretty plausible. I instantly thought her parents were whoring her out, but that'd be far too simplistic for this story. And at this point, when it comes to Yuko, I have to assume there are some manipulations at work. It's possible that her mother is the one whoring herself out. On the brief interactions she's had in this story so far, she didn't seem like the kind of person to endorse such a fate to Yuko, so I could see the whole window, light-off/on, man-leaving-store bit as a red herring.

The fact that she saw Nozoe out there and then coped a smile is pretty unusual(but maybe usual for Yuko). If she is sleeping with the guy I wonder how she intends to cover it up. Not to mention this was the same day she was supposed to give Uryu an answer to the dating query. Well we may never find out how she was gonna react,, cause he ran away.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

Spoiler for 94:

Sounds pretty plausible. I instantly thought her parents were whoring her out, but that'd be far too simplistic for this story. And at this point, when it comes to Yuko, I have to assume there are some manipulations at work. It's possible that her mother is the one whoring herself out. On the brief interactions she's had in this story so far, she didn't seem like the kind of person to endorse such a fate to Yuko, so I could see the whole window, light-off/on, man-leaving-store bit as a red herring.

The fact that she saw Nozoe out there and then coped a smile is pretty unusual(but maybe usual for Yuko). If she is sleeping with the guy I wonder how she intends to cover it up. Not to mention this was the same day she was supposed to give Uryu an answer to the dating query. Well we may never find out how she was gonna react,, cause he ran away.

Spoiler for 94:

I very much doubt it's red herring. In the previous flashback, when Yuko tried to run away to that room like she usually did when her father beat her, she said she found her mother there with a customer. The implication being she was whoring herself out.

My reasoning is that after this incident, Yuko was too scared to go back home and basically took over her mother's job in exchange for staying in that room. Prostitution being the lesser evil in her eyes. I'm sure the customer(s) were more than happy to exchange a middle aged lady for a JC too.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for 94:

I very much doubt it's red herring. In the previous flashback, when Yuko tried to run away to that room like she usually did when her father beat her, she said she found her mother there with a customer. The implication being she was whoring herself out.

My reasoning is that after this incident, Yuko was too scared to go back home and basically took over her mother's job in exchange for staying in that room. Prostitution being the lesser evil in her eyes. I'm sure the customer(s) were more than happy to exchange a middle aged lady for a JC too.

Can't argue with that logic: makes a lot of sense, but... I just don't see the Yuko twist in all of this. After everything she's done, it's hard to see her purely as a victim, or victim of circumstance. If things do happen as you say, I expect there to be some other purpose at work; like trying to get pregnant to enact her plan. Although I could also see the author trying to humanize Yuko given how vile her adult version is.

[Kanon]

Spoiler for 95:

Yuko started whoring herself out because her mother asked her to to help pay off her father's debt, and she doesn't see anything wrong with it. Her face at the end when she asks Nozoe what he means by "it's too late" is really scary... she finally dropped her mask.

She's clearly twisted already, so her having been the instigator of the gang war seems likely.

[frubam]

Man, sure is hard waiting chapter to chapter instead of reading a big chunk of chapters =0v.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Spoiler for 95:

Yuko started whoring herself out because her mother asked her to to help pay off her father's debt, and she doesn't see anything wrong with it. Her face at the end when she asks Nozoe what he means by "it's too late" is really scary... she finally dropped her mask.

She's clearly twisted already, so her having been the instigator of the gang war seems likely.

Spoiler for 95:

Yeah, believe she's responsible for the gang war, though I can only guess how she did it. I will say at this point, highly doubt some random dudes just decided to walk up and take her in the festival chapter; I could definitely see her inviting the rival gang members and freely going along with them to bait Uryu to fight them. Or maybe they were strictly for Nozoe, so he would give more pity towards her after being "stolen" and Uryu was an unexpected obstacle. I'm guessing her endgame is finding someone who will either die FOR her or love her unconditionally. And Nozoe was fully willing to give up his life with hers to keep her from the pains of adulthood; but unfortunately for him, she has already reached that point. And probably far earlier than he actually realizes.

I wonder what exactly did she expect for him to say near the end. Like, what else would he want to talk about that's more important that selling the body of the girl he loves to some old fat man? Come to think, the whole Uryu boyfriend thing has been completely forgotten, assuming that wasn't a lie ofc. Either way, she's discarded the mask, but he's not looking at her directly, so its possible she could 'revert' back to her cheery self by the time he has the composure to look up. But I honestly hope she doesn't because I want the dynamic between them to permanently shift, and I don't think that'll fully happen until he's 100% focused on her and sees her unmasked(no glimpses like last chapter).

On some random note, I was rereading the beginning chapters again(just cause) and it is interesting how info from later chapters makes certain things far more clear to me. Like, you can see Reiji REALLY hates his mother(if the declaration during stabbing incident wasn't obv enough, but to see the foreshadowing is nice), and how he realizes that everything he's experiencing is all her fault(bro, grandma, Gen, etc) and how she is a lying sack of s***. During his monologue, he uses the word "They", but its clear hes talking about his mother. Gen feels more tragic since I know his backstory, you can see most of his behaviors make sense.

Also, Reiji states that Nozoe must be 46 y/o, since Yuko stated he was a classmate of the same grade/school. If Reiji is 16~17, I'm not seeing how Nozoe is the father, esp since he proclaimed from the time he declared he wanted to marry Yuko, to seeing Reiji for the first time was 32 years apart and he supposedly left for Tokyo and never returned until 1 year before the beginning of the story. Either I misunderstand the timeline, or there's still a crapton of story to tell, even though it always feels like the end is looming just around the corner at this point.

[Kanon]

Unless she's delusional, Yuko has already confirmed that Nozoe is Reiji's father. We also can't dismiss that other characters have noted the similarities between them, despite the fact Yuko tried to raise Reiji to be the opposite of him: someone who would never abandon his family and leave the town.

Nozoe has never been able to get over Yuko, it's possible that he came back 17 years ago thinking that he could "fix" her, only to realize she was even more far gone than he thought. He's laying out the whole story this time (from his POV), so we'll get the answer soon enough. I certainly agree waiting is painful though.

A lot of people are seeing Yuko as an innocent victim now. Personally, I'll only buy it once we get her side of the story. Only thing I know for sure is that she did love Nozoe, and probably still does but would rather not admit it.

[frubam]

Points taken =03. If he's really laying out the whole story, its gonna be a LONG time before the end of it. I do want to know what happened to Chako too =0<. He said he stayed there for 6 years since he was in the 7th grade, 13 y/o, so he at least graduated from there then left. Then there'd be a whole story about when he came back, which would be another long arc, so I can't say the answer will come "soon enough", but it'll come eventually .

When you say "people" you mean in-story? Or other readers(obvs outside of here )? Anyway, I can't trust Yuko either. It would have been more intriguing if the author didn't show her unmasked face, and instead kept the reader guessing if she was manipulative or not like her adult self, but given her unmasked faces, its easy to believe that she's orchestrated some of the current(in the flashback) events in some way.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by frubam

When you say "people" you mean in-story? Or other readers(obvs outside of here )? Anyway, I can't trust Yuko either. It would have been more intriguing if the author didn't show her unmasked face, and instead kept the reader guessing if she was manipulative or not like her adult self, but given her unmasked faces, its easy to believe that she's orchestrated some of the current(in the flashback) events in some way.

I mean other readers. I'm actually surprised so many of them are taking everything at face value. We don't know what was actually happening behind the scenes.