Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

If Suzaku lover's stopped using the same arguments over and over again then perhaps it would be more objective. Except since they don't stop those who support Lelouch have to keep on using different examples and arguments to prove why Suzaku is bad for Japan.

Ciao dear, have a nice day in Trollville

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Suzaku didn't ask Tianzi, he asked someone else. What would he have done if he had asked the Tianzi directly and she said she didn't want to go through with it.

Most likely he would've done nothing anyway because
1) its for peace
2) he was ordered to accept it

Most likely he would've done nothing anyway because it's not his business? As Cecile noted, he's just a guest, nothing else.

If you go to a wedding for a couple you don't know but have doubts about, do you just screw it up for kicks? You are in no position to even do so. Your not family, nor close friend, so what'd you expect him to do?

As for me being a perfect britannian? Nope I'm still far from it since I'm not racist and I wouldn't invade another nation and oppress their people for the sake of a few minerals and natural resources.

And how many times do people need to explain to you? This isn't about resources, it's about the Geass ruins.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Ciao dear, have a nice day in Trollville

Perfect example of a person who can't accept and face the hard truth. Finally realized that you can't win this debate eh?

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Most likely he would've done nothing anyway because it's not his business? As Cecile noted, he's just a guest, nothing else.

If you go to a wedding for a couple you don't know but have doubts about, do you just screw it up for kicks? You are in no position to even do so. Your not family, nor close friend, so what'd you expect him to do?

Do the right thing. If you allow, through inaction, someone to go ahead and choose a path which you know for certain that it would not be good are you going to just sit by idly?

Someone who allows another person to fall into danger, through inaction, is just as guilty as a person who places someone into danger on purpose.

And in matters such as marriage, there is a very good reason why we have something called the age of consent.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Do the right thing. If you allow, through inaction, someone to go ahead and choose a path which you know for certain that it would not be good are you going to just sit by idly?

Ok so what's the "right thing" for Suzaku to do?

I already explained to you. He is just a guest who has no right or anything to object to the marriage.

The only people who had the right to stop the marriage were Schenzeil, Odysessus, Enuchs, Zero, and Xing Ke (who was preparing a coup).

Suzaku has nothing on him, he'd do more harm than good much as what Xing Ke was doing.

And in matters such as marriage, there is a very good reason why we have something called the age of consent.

Clearly you need to read up on history. Marriages aren't just about love and such, marriages are also done for political reasons.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Ok so what's the "right thing" for Suzaku to do?



Clearly you need to read up on history. Marriages aren't just about love and such, marriages are also done for political reasons.

Thats another reason why Suzaku should try and prevent it, political marriages more often than not happen without the consent of at least one of the parties involved.

One of the principles of Freedom is the Freedom of Choice, Free Will.

Oh well maybe I AM being biased here, because in my family no one is allowed to marry, on pain of death, for any other reason then because the couple loves each other. And I LOATH marriages of politics, marriages of convenience, marriages for a green card, etc.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Yeah you mind answering my question? What IS the right thing for Suzaku to do? Object to the marriage? Okay so then WHAT?

Thats another reason why Suzaku should try and prevent it, political marriages more often than not happen without the consent of at least one of the parties involved.

You really really need to read up on history.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Yeah you mind answering my question? What IS the right thing for Suzaku to do? Object to the marriage? Okay so then WHAT?



You really really need to read up on history.



See now that in itself is a bias opinion. You are personally against those types of marriages.

No, you need to read up on history, many times the side of one of the couple has to convince that man or woman to marry the other and they give so many reasons such as it's for the sake of family, of peace, of economics etc. And then afterwards there are so many scandals about who they had an affair with or what problems they are facing etc.

Look at Milley and Lloyd, she has to marry him because her family wants to regain some social status.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

No, you need to read up on history, many times the side of one of the couple has to convince that man or woman to marry the other and they give so many reasons such as it's for the sake of family, of peace, of economics etc.

You know I was the one that said that there are many other reasons for marriages and that it's not just about love and such so I'm not sure what you are trying to make a point and I know now that your just simply biased against any marriage that doesn't involve love.

The fact I was pointing out was that it wasn't uncommon in the old days for age gaps to be quite big and the couple never had any issues with it.

Look at Milley and Lloyd, she has to marry him because her family wants to regain some social status.

If that was the case then why didn't she just accept the previous suitors? She turned all of them down except for Lloyd and so far they don't seem to have any issues with each other compared to Tianzi who was scared the living hell in just even going near Odyessus.

And you still haven't answered my question on what is the right thing for Suzaku to do.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You know I was the one that said that there are many other reasons for marriages and that it's not just about love and such.

The fact I was pointing out was that it wasn't uncommon in the old days for age gaps to be quite big and the couple never had any issues with it.



If that was the case then why didn't she just accept the previous suitors? She turned all of them down except for Lloyd and so far they don't seem to have any issues with each other.

And you still haven't answered my question on what is the right thing for Suzaku to do.

1) we don't know a thing about Milley's previous suitors, perhaps by the time of Lloyd her family had succeeded in convincing her and perhaps his noble status is higher than the previous suitors since Lloyd works under Schneizel.

2) Suzaku should've tried to talk Schneizel out of it.


Oh and YES in this instance I am really biased against that kind of marriage. It takes away free will, for Suzaku who believes that any method that brings peace as long as it doesn't involve killing is ok is just crap.

Even Lelouch, after being objected by CC, Kaguya and Co. and after talking to Shirley realized that he can't decide on the matters of the heart for Tianzi, that the choice is up to her.

Thats also why he never geassed any of the black knight members to join, because only those who join of their own free will can be truely loyal, else he could've just geassed Suzaku into siding with him in the first place.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

1) we don't know a thing about Milley's previous suitors, perhaps by the time of Lloyd her family had succeeded in convincing her and perhaps his noble status is higher than the previous suitors since Lloyd works under Schneizel.

You'd know I would actually accept that if there's been any indication that Millly was against the marriage.

If she consents then what's the issue?

2) Suzaku should've tried to talk Schneizel out of it.

That's the best you can give me?

He'd get the same response,
"It's all for the sake of peace. Remember Suzaku you are just a guest here so please enjoy the party."

If the emperor ordered Suzaku to sabatoge the the wedding then he would have every right to intervene. Or if Suzaku was on equal ranking with Schenzeil then yes he could use his power to do something.

Oh and YES in this instance I am really biased against that kind of marriage. It takes away free will, for Suzaku who believes that any method that brings peace as long as it doesn't involve killing is ok is just crap.

Until you can bring yourself out of this bias this argument has ended. I understand that you are against the marriage but what I cannot accept is you using it to critize Suzaku. If Suzaku had some handling of the situation for the marriage then YES it would be right to critize him but since he just got invited to his party there really is nothing he can do.

As Lelouch pointed out, the marriage happened quite quickly like almost on the spot.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You'd know I would actually accept that if there's been any indication that Millly was against the marriage.

If she consents then what's the issue?



That's the best you can give me?

He'd get the same response,
"It's all for the sake of peace. Remember Suzaku you are just a guest here so please enjoy the party."

If the emperor ordered Suzaku to sabatoge the the wedding then he would have every right to intervene. Yet here h

She gave her consent after realizing that it was the good thing for her family, not for herself. I hope in the coming episodes either Lloyd dies or her engagement to him is canceled when Zero wins the war.

My problem is the fact that Suzaku just asked if it was ok and then just remained quiet, if he had tried to talk to Schneizel and failed it would've been better than doing nothing at all.

It is always better to have tried and failed than have done nothing at all.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

My problem is the fact that Suzaku just asked if it was ok and then just remained quiet, if he had tried to talk to Schneizel and failed it would've been better than doing nothing at all.

It is always better to have tried and failed than have done nothing at all.

Okay let's play assumption here.

Let's assume Suzaku wanted to talk with Schenzeil about it.

Schenzeil just arrived at the party and right afterwards Zero came forth and then challenged him. Then you got the chess match and then crazy Nina came in and crashed the party.

Then in the next scene Zero crashes the wedding.

So following the show, there's no way Suzaku would get a chance to speak with Schezenil about it.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Okay let's play assumption here.

Let's assume Suzaku wanted to talk with Schenzeil about it.

Schenzeil just arrived at the party and right afterwards Zero came forth and then challenged him. Then you got the chess match and then crazy Nina came in and crashed the party.

Then in the next scene Zero crashes the wedding.

So following the show, there's no way Suzaku would get a chance to speak with Schezenil about it.

Ok lets forgive him for not doing anything about the marriage, but later he was OK with it all when everyone on their side had decided to kill the Tianzi? Not even a word of questioning?

I'm so glad by what Schneizel said about those Eunuchs no longer deserving to join their country. Seems to me if it wasn't for the sake of peace he wouldn't even consider those pigs as anything remotely human.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

Ok lets forgive him for not doing anything about the marriage, but later he was OK with it all when everyone on their side had decided to kill the Tianzi? Not even a word of questioning?

How many lines did Suzaku had in that episode?

Almost zero. You could literally argue that he was absent from the episode.

Even Anya and Gino had more lines than he did.

[DN24]

Not like Schneizel could do anything,at the time of the party everything is done. Nobody at that party really care about Tianzi's feeling except Kaguya( a friend) and Suzaku( a stranger).That is enough to prove he's a good guy.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

How many lines did Suzaku had in that episode?

Almost zero. You could literally argue that he was absent from the episode.

Even Anya and Gino had more lines than he did.

well that was the producers that decided who gets what lines. So lets blame all of Suzaku's faults on them instead. they need to die to redeem Suzaku

So from now on, every bad guy in all the mangas and animes, it's not their fault. It's the mangaka and producers who made them that way.

Damn if it wasn't for the fact that we need action, conflict, drama, etc.

[Aquaman OS]

You don't seem to understand Suzaku's place in proceedings. He has to follow political proceedures to avoid international conflict. He can't just stop marriage and end it there he doesn't have the authority. He also can't interfere with China deciding to kill the Tianzi as thats their own internal politics.

Suzaku's part of the Britannian political system now, he can't play hero. He's not Jesus Yamato who can swoop in with heroic music playing and stop political marriages because he doesn't like it, or fire on another country's military because he doesn't want them fighting who they are fighting or do whatever he pleases (I find it funny how people harped on Kira for being a vigilante in GSD yet seem to dislike Suzaku for not doing this in Geass).

All Suzaku can do is follow Emp's orders, engage in combat against people his country has already declared war on (he can join the battle against EU because they were already fighting but he can't attack CF who they were allied with just because he didn't like their methods) and refuse orders from anyone other than Emp himself. If for whatever reason they wanted HIM to marry her he could refuse, and if they ordered HIM to fire at Tianzi he could refuse to do it, (but not stop anyone else from doing so). Otherwise he'd get Britannia involved with wars they don't want and get fired and/or arrested killed for going over the Emp's head.

[BlackOni]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

well that was the producers that decided who gets what lines. So lets blame all of Suzaku's faults on them instead. they need to die to redeem Suzaku

So from now on, every bad guy in all the mangas and animes, it's not their fault. It's the mangaka and producers who made them that way.

Damn if it wasn't for the fact that we need action, conflict, drama, etc.

I agree competly it seems I find myself analysing Suzaku for a remdeming quaitly and always seem to come up short. The only redeming quality he "had" was during season one when he was willing to risk his life to save a civilian (episoide 2) and disobey orders (episoide 12) when it envoled killing unarmed people. But since r2 he seems to have lost both those qualitys and just wallows in his belief that orders are absoulute even if they are against his original beliefs.

I also realise the best argument against this is that he needs to obey his order in order to gain status and in the end save his country. But to me that bull. Selling someone for that sake of a promotion, rewriting your friends memories, (i say this cuase suzaku is the only one who could have explained lelouches relationships with his friends and such to the emperor so he could geass them.)

and don't think of my hate as ignorance cause I can completly understand his choices and why he chosses them, but I still belive there the wrong choices and that the way he's going he'll become a charles copy with his original beliefs completly distored and make japan worse then is was before, unless something drastic happens soon, I can't see him on any other path.

i do not on ther other hand agree with many of lelouches choices, but i also realise he make these choices knowing he'll be hated. i think C.C. said it best in episoide 7 of r2. "the one that wears that helmet most cary the wait of the world on his shoulders." he's prepared to be hated becuase he knows in the end the world will be a better place, (though I also don't quite agree with that belief.)

Anyways thats all i'm going to say right now as I have already wrote 2 other really long (4-6 paragrphs if i remember) post explianing new reason why I hate Susaku as they come along, and it would take way to long to explain them all now.

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by BlackOni

I agree competly it seems I find myself analysing Suzaku for a remdeming quaitly and always seem to come up short. The only redeming quality he "had" was during season one when he was willing to risk his life to save a civilian (episoide 2) and disobey orders (episoide 12) when it envoled killing unarmed people. But since r2 he seems to have lost both those qualitys and just wallows in his belief that orders are absoulute even if they are against his original beliefs.

I also realise the best argument against this is that he needs to obey his order in order to gain status and in the end save his country. But to me that bull. Selling someone for that sake of a promotion, rewriting your friends memories, (i say this cuase suzaku is the only one who could have explained lelouches relationships with his friends and such to the emperor so he could geass them.)

and don't think of my hate as ignorance cause I can completly understand his choices and why he chosses them, but I still belive there the wrong choices and that the way he's going he'll become a charles copy with his original beliefs completly distored and make japan worse then is was before, unless something drastic happens soon, I can't see him on any other path.

i do not on ther other hand agree with many of lelouches choices, but i also realise he make these choices knowing he'll be hated. i think C.C. said it best in episoide 7 of r2. "the one that wears that helmet most cary the wait of the world on his shoulders." he's prepared to be hated becuase he knows in the end the world will be a better place, (though I also don't quite agree with that belief.)

Anyways thats all i'm going to say right now as I have already wrote 2 other really long (4-6 paragrphs if i remember) post explianing new reason why I hate Susaku as they come along, and it would take way to long to explain them all now.

Please do explain since it will make no difference whatsoever