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Old 2008-12-18, 17:24   Link #61
0utf0xZer0
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I don't think those people are normal, but depending on the actual root cause of their preferences, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

Part of the point of my previous post was to demonstrate how such a preference could arise from a fairly normal circumstances. As you probably picked up from my previous post, I'm an introvert, but I do have some level of sex drive. In my case, that drive manifests itself in a mild interest in real girls - and a lot of looking at dirty pictures of 2D ones. So to me, it's not inconceivable that someone like me could have their sex drive manifest completely in attraction to the 2D.

Now if we're talking an attraction on a deeper level than just sex drive, then I agree that it seems weird for someone to go for a fictional character that can't provide any feedback. However, I'm not familiar enough with this kind of attraction yet to say much about it.
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Old 2008-12-18, 17:40   Link #62
Mumitroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Mumitroll, sorry, but I don't subscribe to your elitist views about the (in)ability of the ordinary people to contribute actual progressive and innovative ideas
well, have you done any real graduate/postgraduate-level research in a serious exact science field? it's really an obvious point, and it's almost a waste of time for me in my opinion to argue about that.


Quote:
And nice way of comparing driving with passengers and being an actual doctor. They are exactly the same thing, and involve exactly the same responsibilities toward your wards. This is sarcasm, by the way.
it was a joke. while its obviously not the same, it fits the question you've posed. still, the main difference between surgeons, for example, is not intellectual level or something - it's craft skill. surgery is a handwork. like carpentry or such. except that it also requires good nerves. people with that, good hands, and lots of practice, mostly end up being pretty good at it.


Quote:
Oh, and what's wrong with my finding some kinda behavior unhealthy? It's my opinion, thank you. And it happens to be based upon observation and (some) study.
what i'm trying to say is that it doesnt have to be so. i'll readily agree that probably 90%+ of 2D addicts are not exactly the ideal image of a socially successful person - at least not today. what i dont like is when people try to turn this into absolutes. thats plain wrong. based upon *my* observation.


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so why do you keep trying to distort my point?
because its very limited, and should also be more carefully formulated to be defendable.


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To reinstate: my problem is with people actually forsaking real life partners to concentrate their "affections" on fictional characters, in whatever form they come.
thats a better formulation. still, even that is not really defendable. please explain exactly why that is a problem, with an individual - i.e. if you do not extrapolate it to "majority of mankind forsaking their partners for fictional characters" (which is a problem alright).


Quote:
As for your little research link... honestly, a month without having sex, in the life of a married couple is next to nothing.
its not "little". its RL. there are tons of other studies showing pretty much the same. also, excuse me, if you have sex merely once a month... that is not exactly something essential for your relationship.


Quote:
Oh, and Viagra sells even to young people, you should look into that.
i know, bought it myself (well, Cialis to be exact). its not unhelpful when you need to get turned on when drunk after hours of partying

still, my point remains valid. male libido does go down substantially with age. same for women, at least after the menopause.


Quote:
And, yes, being a misanthrope philosopher isn't exactly a healthy way to approach life, in my book. I'd rather that person be a more productive member of society than a theoretical recluse. But maybe, that's just me.
i'd attack that head-on. its a very weak position, and in a nutshell can be killed by citing many examples of outstanding people who moved humanity far ahead while completely neglecting their social life. but its not really relevant for this thread, so maybe another time.


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Homosexuality is not a disease or a medical condition. There's no gay gene.
says who? my opinion is pretty much the opposite. i think its more or less a physiological/medical condition - at least if we talk about gays who are *genuinely* turned on by males and are not turned on by females (or the respective lesbians) - and most likely the exact reasons for it will be found earlier or later.


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0utf0xZer0, I, for one, have no problem with finding fictional characters attractive - hey, I do. My point was with people who claim superiority of those over the real ones
well, you know, it's sort of hard to deny their superiority in many aspects. be it, e.g., beauty, voice, or personality. since all of those are custom-tailored to cater to the likes of the audience (while RL women arent, normally ).

of course its obvious that they arent the same as a real person - with a conscience, lifelong memories, 3D body, etc. the question is whether for you all those benefits of real people are enough to compensate their shortcomings

here, mileage may vary


Quote:
If you people find that normal, fine. I don't.
it certainly is not normal *today*. just like homosexuality isnt. whether it will be normal in 100 years or not - hard to say. my (educated) guess is: yes.
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Old 2008-12-18, 17:48   Link #63
LeoXiao
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When I watch female characters in anime I always "translate" the looks into "real life," as in, taking out the exaggerations and funky hair colours. Then I decide what looks good and what doesn't. So the difference isn't very much for me.
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Old 2008-12-18, 18:10   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
well, have you done any real graduate/postgraduate-level research in a serious exact science field? it's really an obvious point, and it's almost a waste of time for me in my opinion to argue about that.
Actually, I have. I'm a post-doc undergraduate with a thesis on the way to be published sometime next year (related to extrapolation algorithms used to determine best policies toward developing areas in my country, in diversely afflicted areas like health care, housing, nourishment, etc.). Does that make me a better person?

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
it was a joke. while its obviously not the same, it fits the question you've posed. still, the main difference between surgeons, for example, is not intellectual level or something - it's craft skill. surgery is a handwork. like carpentry or such. except that it also requires good nerves. people with that, good hands, and lots of practice, mostly end up being pretty good at it.
Right. And, by nerves, you actually include the doctor's determination to keep going even after a good portion of patients dies at his/her hands, huh? Because, honestly, that's a very big point of contention, to me. It's not just study - there's also a little something called vocation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
what i'm trying to say is that it doesnt have to be so. i'll readily agree that probably 90%+ of 2D addicts are not exactly the ideal image of a socially successful person - at least not today. what i dont like is when people try to turn this into absolutes. thats plain wrong. based upon *my* observation.
Are you sure you're not guilty of the same mistakes of spouting absolutes?

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
because its very limited, and should also be more carefully formulated to be defendable.
Oh, this has turned into a debate club, all of a sudden? Okay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
thats a better formulation. still, even that is not really defendable. please explain exactly why that is a problem, with an individual - i.e. if you do not extrapolate it to "majority of mankind forsaking their partners for fictional characters" (which is a problem alright).
I thought I already did. Honestly, does a person's problem only turn important enough to warrant concern when it affects a large amount of people? If so, we would never have developed treatments for A LOT of psychological conditions - or even diseases not prone to huge bouts of virulent spreading. That's kinda close-minded, if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
its not "little". its RL. there are tons of other studies showing pretty much the same. also, excuse me, if you have sex merely once a month... that is not exactly something essential for your relationship.
I'm not even gonna dignify your last point, as it turns this discussion pretty close to infantile name-calling. I'm not here for that shit. So I'll pretend you didn't write that, okay?
As for the other studies that prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'd love to see 'em. As I recall, they're always taken at close-cropped intervals of time. So, not much interest, there. Also, funny you should start relying on other's studies or opinions, when you made quite a point of my doing so, earlier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
still, my point remains valid. male libido does go down substantially with age. same for women, at least after the menopause.
Okay, and that's something most doctors say, right? Funny how suddenly it's okay to trust studies and majorities, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
i'd attack that head-on. its a very weak position, and in a nutshell can be killed by citing many examples of outstanding people who moved humanity far ahead while completely neglecting their social life. but its not really relevant for this thread, so maybe another time.
No, it isn't. And whatever advances were brought by such recluses would have been gotten anyway, by some other mean, even if at a later time. Humanity is resilient and more often than not, different people arrive at the same conclusion (or a close proximity of it), even when separated by great distances - be they physical or not. But this really isn't the place for it.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
says who? my opinion is pretty much the opposite. i think its more or less a physiological/medical condition - at least if we talk about homosexuals who are *genuinely* turned on by males and are not turned on by females - and most likely the exact reasons for it will be found earlier or later.
That's your position. Again, you take a stand contrary to what most clinics would. I should be accustomed to it, by now.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
well, you know, it's sort of hard to deny their superiority in many aspects. be it, e.g., beauty, voice, or personality. since all of those are custom-tailored to cater to the likes of the male audience (while RL women arent, normally ).
of course its obvious that they arent the same as a real person - with a conscience, lifelong memories, 3D body, etc. the question is whether for you all those benefits of real people are enough to compensate their shortcomings
here, mileage may vary
Exactly, this is a matter of personal perception. I don't agree with you. Patience.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
it certainly is not normal *today*. just like homosexuality isnt. whether it will be normal in 100 years or not - hard to say. my (educated) guess is: yes.
Homosexuality is not normal? Not a regular fixture of everyday life? Wow, we must live in different planets, then.
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Old 2008-12-18, 19:02   Link #65
Mumitroll
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Actually, I have. I'm a post-doc undergraduate
er, its either post-doc or undergraduate.. not both at once. PhD is a graduate degree.


Quote:
with a thesis on the way to be published sometime next year (related to extrapolation algorithms used to determine best policies toward developing areas in my country, in diversely afflicted areas like health care, housing, nourishment, etc.). Does that make me a better person?
dont know. give a link to your thesis, i can read and say what i think.


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Right. And, by nerves, you actually include the doctor's determination to keep going even after a good portion of patients dies at his/her hands, huh?
yes. basically, by "nerves" for a surgeon i mean disregard for human life.


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Are you sure you're not guilty of the same mistakes of spouting absolutes?
yes. feel free to try and find absolutes in my statements.


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Oh, this has turned into a debate club, all of a sudden? Okay...
well, it depends on your level of arguing. if you can produce logical, clean, sound arguments, then there probably isnt much I can do about them. on the other hand, if you are inaccurate and sloppy, its easy to attack from all kinds of perspectives.


Quote:
Honestly, does a person's problem only turn important enough to warrant concern when it affects a large amount of people?
yes. with a few preconditions. 1) the "problem" is not illegal. 2) the "problem" does not affect the person's well-being and does not make them socially dependent (i.e. freeloading off parents until 30+ years old). 3) the "problem" does not physically hurt anyone (the person him/herself, or anyone close to him/her). 4) the "problem" is not known to commonly escalate into something that results in 1) 2) or 3).

given that, i'm liberal enough to say that the "problem" actually isnt one, but rather a matter of personal freedom of choice.

and, to repeat it again: e.g. homosexuality would already fail at 1) in various countries. being obsessively addicted to e.g. MMORPG games or model railways is a case for 2). various nasty things fall under 3). and lots of things potentially can be 4).


Quote:
I'm not even gonna dignify your last point, as it turns this discussion pretty close to infantile name-calling. I'm not here for that shit. So I'll pretend you didn't write that, okay?
i neither called you names nor used any cursewords. it is your personal problem if you take a simple factual statement ("for couples that only have sex once a month it is not an essential element of their relationship") as an offense.


Quote:
As for the other studies that prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'd love to see 'em. As I recall, they're always taken at close-cropped intervals of time. So, not much interest, there. Also, funny you should start relying on other's studies or opinions, when you made quite a point of my doing so, earlier...
please be accurate. a study is a somewhat valid argumentation tool if it is done by a serious institution and is independently confirmed. the above Durex/Kitamura study is for example basically confirmed by other studies such as

http://api-net.jfap.or.jp/siryou/ken...f/C071_S18.pdf
http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/?p=914

a personal opinion on the other hand is typically not a very valuable argument, unless you are an expert in the question at hand, with years of experience/professional education.


Quote:
Okay, and that's something most doctors say, right? Funny how suddenly it's okay to trust studies and majorities, isn't it?
its something i can confirm from my own - and hearsay - experience

as opposed to the what "most economists" say point in the economy thread or what "most psychologists" say point earlier in this thread...


Quote:
And whatever advances were brought by such recluses would have been gotten anyway, by some other mean, even if at a later time.
lol, with that logic you can dismiss all science and all people devoted to science at once. it "would have been gotten anyway". at a later time. like 5000 years later. doesnt matter much though, does it? i mean the Sun is still going to be there for another 4-5 billion years... oh wait it was those science people who figured that out


Quote:
Humanity is resilient and more often than not, different people arrive at the same conclusion (or a close proximity of it), even when separated by great distances - be they physical or not. But this really isn't the place for it.
if those people are actually good enough to get there. look at all major achievements in theoretical science in history. most of them were done by people who barely cared at all about their social life. for obvious reasons: e.g. if you spend your life on women, you are not going to do anything significant in science.


Quote:
That's your position. Again, you take a stand contrary to what most clinics would.
what is a "clinic" stance? the stance of the chief of staff? that of its sponsors? dont make me laugh.. the only stance that is worthwhile is the consensus of people doing serious research in this field. i am yet to see any paper proving that homosexuality is not a physiological/medical condition. if there were one it would surely be a major bomb. there wont be one though. the reasoning for this is actually fairly simple: if you state that homosexuality is not physiological but rather entirely defined by the experiences that person has had, it is sufficient to find merely one counterexample - where the person cannot remember any trigger experiences making him sexually like men, but still inexplainably "feels like it". i'd daresay you'll find not one but many thousands of such counterexamples.


Quote:
Homosexuality is not normal? Not a regular fixture of everyday life? Wow, we must live in different planets, then.
on most of the planet, it certainly isnt. it may be a tolerated exception in some places (and not tolerated in others) - but its far from being normality.
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Old 2008-12-18, 19:59   Link #66
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
First, I think saying that people who prefer fictional characters to real people have a dissociative disorder is jumping to conclusions. I'd say 99%+ of us here are guilty of caring more about fictional characters than real people. Unless it happens to be someone I know, I would prefer not to hear about their troubles.
Well I guess I'd be the 1% that would care more about my family and friends over a fictional character. Also comparing your feelings towards a fictional character to someone you don't know in real life is not a great presentation of your point. Its not uncommon for someone to feel an emotional attachment to fictional characters, animated or not. Many people cry when their "favorite character" dies in a show or book because they felt an emotional attachment to the character after in a sense spending so much time getting to know the character through reading or watching their expierences. So bringing up that towards feelings you have for someone you don't know, its pretty obvious which one you'd care more for.

Even with that said it still goes the other way. Plenty of people care about others who are facing hardships in their lives more than say a fictional character, real people over fictional, and go out of their way to help these people who are basically complete strangers to them. For instance those who work in organizations that help build houses for families without a home. Do you think they care more about some fictional character or the person they're helping?

Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2008-12-18 at 23:12.
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Old 2008-12-18, 21:21   Link #67
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
er, its either post-doc or undergraduate.. not both at once. PhD is a graduate degree.
In layman's terms, I don't have my post doctorate yet, making me an undergraduate in that sense. However, I'm obviously a graduate in something, or I wouldn't have a shot at a post-doc, now would I? Please, no semantics debate, here...

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
dont know. give a link to your thesis, i can read and say what i think.
It was a rhetorical question. I don't really care much about your opinion, either way. Neither are most of my papers in english - if they were ever translated, I didn't have much of a hand in it.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
yes. basically, by "nerves" for a surgeon i mean disregard for human life.
Yeah, that's what drives someone to become a surgeon: disregard for human life. What a great platitude.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
yes. feel free to try and find absolutes in my statements.
"the main difference between surgeons, for example, is not intellectual level or something - it's craft skill. surgery is a handwork. like carpentry or such. except that it also requires good nerves. people with that, good hands, and lots of practice, mostly end up being pretty good at it."

"it certainly is not normal *today*. just like homosexuality isnt."

"so, put bluntly, for 90% of people its simply impossible to contribute anything here as the level of mathematical understanding required is beyond their ability."

Need more?

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
well, it depends on your level of arguing. if you can produce logical, clean, sound arguments, then there probably isnt much I can do about them. on the other hand, if you are inaccurate and sloppy, its easy to attack from all kinds of perspectives.
Right. Just like your points, I take it?

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
yes. with a few preconditions.
Your point here is so jumbled with inaccuracies in the manner of actually defining a "problem" it's not even worth my time, really... Moving on.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
i neither called you names nor used any cursewords. it is your personal problem if you take a simple factual statement ("for couples that only have sex once a month it is not an essential element of their relationship") as an offense.
I wouldn't have taken offense if you had phrased your statement in the way you put it now. However, we both know that's not how you wrote it. Want me to quote it for you? Or just drop it?

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
please be accurate. a study is a somewhat valid argumentation tool if it is done by a serious institution and is independently confirmed.
Right. You seem to have a little bit of a problem of using double-standards when it suits you. Fine by me.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
a personal opinion on the other hand is typically not a very valuable argument, unless you are an expert in the question at hand, with years of experience/professional education.
Okay. Then that means I can just shrug off ALL of your opinions so far in this debate? Geez, they amount to basically pretty much your whole point. There are lots of "I think", "I mean"...

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
lol, with that logic you can dismiss all science and all people devoted to science at once. look at all major achievements in theoretical science in history. most of them were done by people who barely cared at all about their social life. for obvious reasons: e.g. if you spend your life on women, you are not going to do anything significant in science.
Oh yeah, Einstein died a virgin too, didn't he? It's not like every single major scientific breakthrough was made by mal-adjusted misanthropes who never laid hands on men/women. That's a pretty big generalization, right there. And I know you're so against those...

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
what is a "clinic" stance? the stance of the chief of staff? that of its sponsors? dont make me laugh.. the only stance that is worthwhile is the consensus of people doing serious research in this field.
You seem to know a lot about the inner workings of the very simplistic medical science. Tell me, what's your specialty? I thought it was something to do with exact sciences, no? Don't make me laugh.

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Originally Posted by Mumitroll View Post
on most of the planet, it certainly isnt. it may be a tolerated exception in some places (and not tolerated in others) - but its far from being normality.
And you wonder why some people might take offense at your points? It boggles the mind...
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Old 2008-12-18, 21:37   Link #68
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
1) Are there similarities between the kind of characters you're attracted to in anime and in real life, either in terms of looks or personality?

2) Have you ever had changes in your tastes in anime characters affect the type of person you're attracted to in real life?
Do you mean that about "people in general" or "possible lovers or persons to have sex with"?
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Old 2008-12-19, 00:35   Link #69
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
Well I guess I'd be the 1% that would care more about my family and friends over a fictional character. Also comparing your feelings towards a fictional character to someone you don't know in real life is not a great presentation of your point. Its not uncommon for someone to feel an emotional attachment to fictional characters, animated or not. Many people cry when their "favorite character" dies in a show or book because they felt an emotional attachment to the character after in a sense spending so much time getting to know the character through reading or watching their expierences. So bringing up that towards feelings you have for someone you don't know, its pretty obvious which one you'd care more for.

Even with that said it still goes the other way. Plenty of people care about others who are facing hardships in their lives more than say a fictional character, real people over fictional, and go out of their way to help these people who are basically complete strangers to them. For instance those who work in organizations that help build houses for families without a home. Do you think they care more about some fictional character or the person they're helping?
If you only care about family and friends more than fictional character, you fall into the rhetorical 99% I describe. When I say most of the populace, myself included, cares more about the fate of a fictional character than that of a real person, I'm talking about someone you don't know. Doesn't make them any less of a real person.

The entire point of that argument was to show by analogy. You yourself admit that it is common to form an attachment to fictional characters. So apply this to the situation of a single male anime geek: he's deeply attached to some female characters, but he may not have any strong attachments to real women. Hence, it seems to me like it would not be abnormal for him to state an interest in the 2D but not real women. It's my attempt to create a psychological profile for someone who prefers the fictional to the real that doesn't involve an abnormal blurring of fantasy and reality. It does raise the issue of whether anime geeks should try and meet more real women, but that's an entirely different argument. I'd personally argue many of these geeks may have a strong desire for real relationships and are only into 2D girls because it's an easy way to relieve sex drive - which is not the same thing.

Do you understand my argument now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona
Do you mean that about "people in general" or "possible lovers or persons to have sex with"?
That's open to your interpretation. Honestly, I'm interested in people's thoughts on either.

Last edited by 0utf0xZer0; 2008-12-19 at 00:43. Reason: Edited for clarity.
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Old 2008-12-19, 05:18   Link #70
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
If you only care about family and friends more than fictional character, you fall into the rhetorical 99% I describe. When I say most of the populace, myself included, cares more about the fate of a fictional character than that of a real person, I'm talking about someone you don't know. Doesn't make them any less of a real person.
I speak from personal experience when I say that I believe your percentage is way off. If not, there wouldn't be so many people working in a social capacity towards helping others. Mostly complete strangers to them. Granted, it's something not most people would do, but it's not limited to 1% of the general populace, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
The entire point of that argument was to show by analogy. You yourself admit that it is common to form an attachment to fictional characters. So apply this to the situation of a single male anime geek: he's deeply attached to some female characters, but he may not have any strong attachments to real women. Hence, it seems to me like it would not be abnormal for him to state an interest in the 2D but not real women.
Speaking from experience, again, I've had trouble believing reasonably well-educated people would display such preferences, since in all my years as a member of geek cliques, I've NEVER personally met anyone who professed such preferences or that actually acted like he/she wasn't interested in real life girls/boys. It's a recent phenomenon that I've only seen a sample over internet news sites and, now, message boards.
Behavior like the one exhibited by the feral otaku who were outraged when a female character in a manga was revealed to have had a boyfriend in the past (Nagi, from Kannagi), or by the fangirls of seiyuu Mamoru Miyano when he announced his marriage to his pregnant girlfriend is just all kinds of wrong - and it's exactly the reason I have a problem with some people claiming this kind of behavior to be "normal" and not something to be worried about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
It's my attempt to create a psychological profile for someone who prefers the fictional to the real that doesn't involve an abnormal blurring of fantasy and reality. It does raise the issue of whether anime geeks should try and meet more real women, but that's an entirely different argument. I'd personally argue many of these geeks may have a strong desire for real relationships and are only into 2D girls because it's an easy way to relieve sex drive - which is not the same thing.
Do you understand my argument now?
I do, but the "relieving" of sex drive is still a bit off, to me. I mean, fapping to a cartoon is all well and good, but doing that for your whole life seems a bit... lonely, I'd say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
That's open to your interpretation. Honestly, I'm interested in people's thoughts on either.
Like I've been trying to explain to a certain extent, I don't think it's inherently a problem to feel affection towards fictional characters. I only think it wrong to disavow the real world completely and profess to have no interest in it. But that's what I think, and people are open to their own opinions on the matter.

And, whenever I claimed this kind of extreme behavior to merit some sort of medical assistance, please be reminded that psychology is something that only works with the (conscious or not) help of the patient. When the interest is not there... so, it can't be something like a mandatory crash-course in reality. If the person doesn't believe to have a problem, it wouldn't work, anyway - so, it's a moot point, really. It' not like one can force someone else into a rehabilitation program and hope for the best - that never really works.
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Old 2008-12-19, 05:55   Link #71
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Behavior like the one exhibited by the feral otaku who were outraged when a female character in a manga was revealed to have had a boyfriend in the past (Nagi, from Kannagi), or by the fangirls of seiyuu Mamoru Miyano when he announced his marriage to his pregnant girlfriend is just all kinds of wrong - and it's exactly the reason I have a problem with some people claiming this kind of behavior to be "normal" and not something to be worried about.
Don't worry, those behavior are not considered ''normal'' you have the right to feel worried about.
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Old 2008-12-19, 06:18   Link #72
Navel
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Hmm... Mumitroll, I see you mentioned the Economy 2008 thread here... I have to say I stopped posting there because I realized you were trolling. Don't take that in support of your "theories" here by association. You don't have any support from me, at least. I do appreciate the time you take to write those long posts, but I think you are getting lost in the pleasure of debating instead of keeping it real.
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Old 2008-12-19, 06:59   Link #73
MuraKami
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Quote:
1) Are there similarities between the kind of characters you're attracted to in anime and in real life, either in terms of looks or personality?
Quote:
2) Have you ever had changes in your tastes in anime characters affect the type of person you're attracted to in real life?
No, there are similarities between real life people I am attracted to and anime characters, and anime characters are free to come in their particular designs as much as their creators deem plausible. On the other hand, I may deem their creators' ideals matching or mismatching mine, but then again, I don't rely on anybody to educate me on what I should like or dislike. 2Ds or 3Ds with 1D personality are significant turn offs in anime and real disappointemt in life even if their major asset is beauty. I don't expect anime to provide me with a life partner, neither I watch anime, because I am not able to like real people. On the contrary, in anime I might (unfortunately, less and less) find new and diverging interpretations of themes that interest me in real life, as well as real life people could become an infinite source of pleasure and amusement in respect to their flaws and specifics. Being not perfect myself, I believe it would be mutual. If I have to bet on something as far as my tender feelings are concerned, it would be completeness, not perfection, and I am sorry, but I adore them live and kicking.
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Old 2008-12-19, 07:26   Link #74
emotionless_teenage
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well,i am fond to 'cute,kind,emotionless' kind of girl (like rei ayanami)

and to tell the truth,i still can't find it anywere
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Old 2008-12-19, 09:08   Link #75
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
The entire point of that argument was to show by analogy. You yourself admit that it is common to form an attachment to fictional characters. So apply this to the situation of a single male anime geek: he's deeply attached to some female characters, but he may not have any strong attachments to real women. Hence, it seems to me like it would not be abnormal for him to state an interest in the 2D but not real women. It's my attempt to create a psychological profile for someone who prefers the fictional to the real that doesn't involve an abnormal blurring of fantasy and reality. It does raise the issue of whether anime geeks should try and meet more real women, but that's an entirely different argument. I'd personally argue many of these geeks may have a strong desire for real relationships and are only into 2D girls because it's an easy way to relieve sex drive - which is not the same thing.
Again this is something that goes both ways. Yes there are "geeks" that have a great desire for 2D characters, but they still seek a real life relationship. And again there is the other side which is the "geek" that has absolutely no interest in real life women. The key figure is how and why they got to that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Do you understand my argument now?
I did understand your argument, but I wasn't going against your entire argument. I just went after that one part which seemed a little uneeded and seemed, in my opinion, a flaw to your overall point. Just so you know you brought up many great points and so like I said I'm didn't disagree with your overal argument, there was just a few things that nitpicked me.
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Old 2008-12-19, 09:23   Link #76
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Anything unique or strange (anime girls)

Females classified under male otaku (in other words, hardcore real girls)
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Old 2008-12-19, 14:40   Link #77
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I speak from personal experience when I say that I believe your percentage is way off. If not, there wouldn't be so many people working in a social capacity towards helping others. Mostly complete strangers to them. Granted, it's something not most people would do, but it's not limited to 1% of the general populace, either.
Even I'm starting to think I was stupid to use a 1% figure. Still, based on my own experience in a major Canadian city, I can comfortably say that most people will not concern themselves with the troubles of a complete stranger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Speaking from experience, again, I've had trouble believing reasonably well-educated people would display such preferences, since in all my years as a member of geek cliques, I've NEVER personally met anyone who professed such preferences or that actually acted like he/she wasn't interested in real life girls/boys. It's a recent phenomenon that I've only seen a sample over internet news sites and, now, message boards.
There's several points I think you need to consider here:
First, I'm not claiming these people are common. What I am saying is that based on the fact that I know a lot of geeks have a minimal drive towards real life relationships, there's probably a small segment of that population who just doesn't have a drive for it period. I personally do have some drive towards real life relationships, but it's low enough that I'm easily able to imagine what it would be like to have no drive - and it doesn't really feel weird to me.
Second, there's a lot of research that shows that people are a lot more likely to post information that's less socially acceptable online, so I don't think it's any surprise that you meet more people like this online than off.
Third, you're 31, so I have to ask what the age of most of these geeks you observed were. I'm only 21, but I can safely say that I'm more interested in girls now than I was at say, 15. I imagine the phenomenon varies with age.
Fourth, a weekly event for my anime club happened to fall on Febuary 14th once. I'm not sure if you have Valentine's Day in Brazil, but it's a big romantic occassion in Canada and the US. We had considerably higher than usual turnout for the event, I don't remember anyone in the club bringing a significant other, and there's like one couple I'm aware of in the entire club. And despite the fact we have a relatively even gender balance, I don't remember any couples forming in the weeks following. Based on that, I think I have some grounds to say that a signficant number of 20-ish year old anime geeks don't exactly pay much attention to the opposite sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Behavior like the one exhibited by the feral otaku who were outraged when a female character in a manga was revealed to have had a boyfriend in the past (Nagi, from Kannagi), or by the fangirls of seiyuu Mamoru Miyano when he announced his marriage to his pregnant girlfriend is just all kinds of wrong - and it's exactly the reason I have a problem with some people claiming this kind of behavior to be "normal" and not something to be worried about.
I still wonder if the Kannagi guy might have done it for the attention rather than because he actually believed in what he did. Can't prove it either way, of course, but I think it's definitely a possibility - I don't think anyone here would argue that attention seeking personalities are all that rare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I do, but the "relieving" of sex drive is still a bit off, to me. I mean, fapping to a cartoon is all well and good, but doing that for your whole life seems a bit... lonely, I'd say.
Even I agree with this to some extent, and suspect that "2D only" (as differentiated from mere interest in 2D) is probably a phase for a lot of people rather than a lifelong orientation. I'm more concerned about it in the Japanese fanbase where the social stigma associated with the fanbase may impede attempts to build relationships outside it when they do want out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki
Again this is something that goes both ways. Yes there are "geeks" that have a great desire for 2D characters, but they still seek a real life relationship. And again there is the other side which is the "geek" that has absolutely no interest in real life women. The key figure is how and why they got to that point.
I was trying to offer a theory as to how they got there. I personally believe that these people are affected by the same factors that drive large number of geeks to have only minimal interest in the opposite sex. The only difference is the extent to which these factors affect a person, and I actually think the difference between someone like me who has a bit of interest in the opposite sex and someone who has no interest is small, not large. As I told BetoJR, I'm close enough to the line to be able to imagine crossing it without feeling very weird.

This isn't to say that some of these people don't have dissociative problems, but I doubt that's the case for most.
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Old 2008-12-19, 16:45   Link #78
BetoJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Still, based on my own experience in a major Canadian city, I can comfortably say that most people will not concern themselves with the troubles of a complete stranger.
On that, we agree whole-heartedly. Most people wouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
There's several points I think you need to consider here: First, I'm not claiming these people are common.
I didn't even believe they actually existed, until recently, so we're even, there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
What I am saying is that based on the fact that I know a lot of geeks have a minimal drive towards real life relationships, there's probably a small segment of that population who just doesn't have a drive for it period.
Now that's an interesting point. Most geeks I know have a real big drive towards the opposite/whatever sex. They just don't really know how to go about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Second, there's a lot of research that shows that people are a lot more likely to post information that's less socially acceptable online, so I don't think it's any surprise that you meet more people like this online than off.
Not disputing that fact. The whole "veil of secrecy" of the web is a heaven for not very acceptable social behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Third, you're 31, so I have to ask what the age of most of these geeks you observed were. I'm only 21, but I can safely say that I'm more interested in girls now than I was at say, 15. I imagine the phenomenon varies with age.
Most of the geeks I know have ages ranging close to mine, but I know some older and some younger than me. More young ones, tho. And I have to say most of them are really interested in the opposite/whatever sex, showing it through personal relationships, conversations or simple porn addictions.
Honestly, most geeks I know are basically addicted to porn - more often than not, because they simply can't get a girl/boyfriend. And not for lack of trying, mostly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Fourth, a weekly event for my anime club happened to fall on Febuary 14th once. I'm not sure if you have Valentine's Day in Brazil, but it's a big romantic occassion in Canada and the US. We had considerably higher than usual turnout for the event, I don't remember anyone in the club bringing a significant other, and there's like one couple I'm aware of in the entire club. And despite the fact we have a relatively even gender balance, I don't remember any couples forming in the weeks following. Based on that, I think I have some grounds to say that a signficant number of 20-ish year old anime geeks don't exactly pay much attention to the opposite sex.
The anime events around here are, more often than not, stages for blooming romance, to at least a small percentage of the followers. Lots of guys stand ogling the cosplaying girls and vice-versa, but some do act upon their impulses and start relationships out of the blue. However, we, as a people, in my country, are generally a lot more open towards how our sexuality is used. So, maybe that's more of a cultural thing.
And yeah, Valentine's Day is a big thing around here. It's celebrated on June 12th, tho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I still wonder if the Kannagi guy might have done it for the attention rather than because he actually believed in what he did. Can't prove it either way, of course, but I think it's definitely a possibility - I don't think anyone here would argue that attention seeking personalities are all that rare.
He could have been vying for that, sure. The disturbing thought is, though: what if he wasn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Even I agree with this to some extent, and suspect that "2D only" (as differentiated from mere interest in 2D) is probably a phase for a lot of people rather than a lifelong orientation. I'm more concerned about it in the Japanese fanbase where the social stigma associated with the fanbase may impede attempts to build relationships outside it when they do want out.
And isn't that what happens most often? I mean, even shows like Genshiken make fun of just such a topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
This isn't to say that some of these people don't have dissociative problems, but I doubt that's the case for most.
I don't. But I'd need more contact with them to determine such a thing - as I don't want to sound altogether dismissive right off the bat.
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Old 2008-12-19, 17:43   Link #79
NoSanninWa
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Well, to bring the conversation back to a somewhat more direct level and away from the "Wall of Quotes" effect.

Personally, I prefer real life members of my preferred gender, not because of appearance or personality, but for a reason that hasn't even been mentioned yet. I like real life people because they can surprise me. No matter how sweet, cure, tsundere, complicated, cool, sexy or whatever you like best in an anime person, they never challenge me.

Real people are full puzzles and surprises. They challenge me.
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Old 2008-12-19, 18:00   Link #80
Vexx
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Same here... I put off my thoughts on the OP's question because I was stewing on how to answer (among other things :P). The OP question was how one's *TASTES* in anime personalities differed from their tastes in real life people. Not necessarily whether one preferred one or the other.

Anime personalities, like any other literary creation, are *sketches* of a real personality. Real personalities are unpredictable and the worst thing for your brain is too much predictability.

I will say that real people who exhibit particular traits associated with certain anime archetypes tend to appeal to me. I like small petite women who have personalities much larger than their appearance (what might be called loli-tsundere by some). But in real life, they're much more complicated entities. I also liked that sort *before* I ever picked up the anime hobby. However, I also tend to have a broad spectrum of personality types I like .... about the only type I *don't* like in anime are the submissive servant anime archetypes -- the "let me bring you tea and be your mommy" types. And fortunately, in real life, even people who exhibit that trait tend to be more complex.
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