Dating

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

She also told me about a female friend of hers that she was falling for, too, and wanted to experiment with. But she knew it would hurt him, so she felt trapped. That's why I can say it was love between us.

Or maybe she needed to turn to someone to vent, and you happened to be there and willing. I'm not saying it wasn't love, but IMO, it's not the kind of love that is shared between only two people. You don't know for sure if she honestly told you because she loved you and wanted your thoughts on things, or if she needed someone to talk to about it and you were willing to listen. How can you know for sure that her intention was loving?

But I do know it was love. You aren't psychic, and you weren't there, so there is no way for you to know what we felt.

Again, I ask: how do you know it was love on her end of things? Certainly, you can guess it was love for you, and confirm how you felt, but how fo you know for sure that it was the same for her? She lied to her fiance to be with you, and cheated on him to be with you, when if she truly loved anyone and was really "100% honest" she would have come clean. So really, I'm just curious: how can you be so certain it was love at all?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by cheyannew

No one's denying there was "love". I DO however think it's complete bullshit (pardon my french) to feel "trapped" in ANY relationship. The SECOND you feel trapped, that's a BIG RED FLAG to get the hell OUT of that relationship.
And, you missed the part about me KNOWING I could tell my hubby anything, else I would not've married him. Besides, HE suspected it long before I did lol
The girl should have, as soon as she knew she was bi/poly, have sat down w/ her mate and discussed things with him.

That's what HONEST people, (and IMO true polys) do.
Sorry for my stubbornness, but there's nothing you can say that'll excuse her CHEATING on her mate, and LYING to both him, and herself, to me. there's no reason for it, IMO.

Again, note the IMO.

See, the thing is, you're thinking with a clear head. You didn't go through the shit she did, where she was used and abused by two guys *and* a girl prior to her meeting her current fiance (which I assume she's married to by now). The first guy just used her for sex, and would literally just come over, screw her, then zip and be gone. The girl was fairly similar, using her. The next guy was even worse, as apparently he'd screw *anything* including animals, and come back to screw her. She was fairly fucked up, not just mentally, but physically as well.

Throughout the times I was seeing her, she was fairly weak physically, with illnesses and weaknesses that would come and go. She was being treated for that, as well as seeing a counselor. While she had made a lot of progress and seemed normal on the outside, I could see things inside of her. Even with all that, she might not ever be "normal;" I just happened to believe that everyone deserves love, regardless. In fact, it was only that caring that allowed her current fiance to get her out of the last sexually abusive relationship she was in(and it still took him a year, I think).

I don't deny that cheating is wrong, but it's a lot harder to argue against when you're there. When you're in something that feels so right. I'm sure we've all known people who, we see them in a bad relationship, but we want to tell them "It's wrong and you should stop it" but knowing they won't listen, heh.

If I could go back in time and stop myself, I do wonder if I would. In one respect, it was wrong. But in another, it taught me a lot of life lessons that made me who I am. Like Kirk said in Star Trek V: "I need my pain. It's part of who I am."

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

So really, I'm just curious: how can you be so certain it was love at all?

How can *you* be sure that *you* love someone? How do you know that it's really love that the other person is feeling? Answer: Some things you never know for sure, and just have to accept. You had a girlfriend; how did you know she loved you? Do you think she did? Or was she just happy to have a girlfriend and thus was using you?

You told us a story awhile back, about a friend of yours that loved this guy she met online. You thought it was bad, but she wouldn't listen to you telling her that. But it seemed pretty obvious to you that she loved him regardless of how right or wrong it was.

Love is a funny thing, and in some ways, you can never know for sure. There are many forms of love, and all I can say now, is that I did love her. I wanted her happy, and I was happy when I was with her. Right or wrong, that's what it was. Maybe she used me, maybe I was just fulfilling some psychological need... but isn't that what love is anyway?

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

See, the thing is, you're thinking with a clear head. You didn't go through the shit she did, where she was used and abused by two guys *and* a girl prior to her meeting her current fiance (which I assume she's married to by now). The first guy just used her for sex, and would literally just come over, screw her, then zip and be gone. The girl was fairly similar, using her. The next guy was even worse, as apparently he'd screw *anything* including animals, and come back to screw her. She was fairly fucked up, not just mentally, but physically as well.

Throughout the times I was seeing her, she was fairly weak physically, with illnesses and weaknesses that would come and go. She was being treated for that, as well as seeing a counselor. While she had made a lot of progress and seemed normal on the outside, I could see things inside of her. Even with all that, she might not ever be "normal;" I just happened to believe that everyone deserves love, regardless. In fact, it was only that caring that allowed her current fiance to get her out of the last sexually abusive relationship she was in(and it still took him a year, I think).

I don't deny that cheating is wrong, but it's a lot harder to argue against when you're there. When you're in something that feels so right. I'm sure we've all known people who, we see them in a bad relationship, but we want to tell them "It's wrong and you should stop it" but knowing they won't listen, heh.

If I could go back in time and stop myself, I do wonder if I would. In one respect, it was wrong. But in another, it taught me a lot of life lessons that made me who I am. Like Kirk said in Star Trek V: "I need my pain. It's part of who I am."

You're still trying to justify something that's not justifiable to me, though.
And seeing you know nothing of my past, you're making assumptions.
If she lacked the respect for herself (forget anyone else) so's to be honest, and so on, then she should not be in a relationship period, much less two "relationships".
Let's just leave it at this, though, because again, there's nothing you can say that'll make me go "Oh, ok, it's ok that she lied to her mate and screwed around on him". That's just not how my brain works, and it's not how the brain of any poly person I've ever met in my entire life works. They're all prettymuch the same: can't fathom cheating and abhors it.
I guess the way we (polys) are wired, it just doesn't occur to us, why you'd hide something as beautiful as love, from all those you care about.

And to me, keeping secrets like that is dooming your marriage to fail. Secrets have a way of coming out, and then, d'you think her hubby will say "Oh that's ok that you cheated on me"? probably not. Some people will, yes. Most? not so much.

[Kaijo]

Then I think we agree. You can accept it was love, and we both know it was wrong because cheating is wrong.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then I think we agree. You can accept it was love, and we both know it was wrong because cheating is wrong.

The "love" part is still debatable to me, but eh, I think if we went into that aspect it would get ugly very fast, so I'll drop it. I think my opinion of her is already pretty clear from my posts.

[Pocky Yoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Heh, no one does. There are a lot of things we say we'd never do, but then we find ourselves doing. Getting involved with a taken woman was something I thought I'd never do, even before I met her. Emotions will carry you away, though.

That's true. No one is perfect. However, no matter what, it's best to be honest and decisive of thy desires than to let lust, denial, and all that other jazz ruin us lol.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

How can *you* be sure that *you* love someone? How do you know that it's really love that the other person is feeling? Answer: Some things you never know for sure, and just have to accept. You had a girlfriend; how did you know she loved you? Do you think she did? Or was she just happy to have a girlfriend and thus was using you?

You told us a story awhile back, about a friend of yours that loved this guy she met online. You thought it was bad, but she wouldn't listen to you telling her that. But it seemed pretty obvious to you that she loved him regardless of how right or wrong it was.

Love is a funny thing, and in some ways, you can never know for sure. There are many forms of love, and all I can say now, is that I did love her. I wanted her happy, and I was happy when I was with her. Right or wrong, that's what it was. Maybe she used me, maybe I was just fulfilling some psychological need... but isn't that what love is anyway?

I simply ask because to me, "cheating on my significant other with some guy I call my soulmate" isn't love. When you get down past the emotional attachments and everything else about it, love is also about fidelity; it's about staying true to that one person you have feelings for. To me, that's why I can't equate what she did with love. She may have loved you until kingdom come, and she's still horrible in my eyes for cheating on her fiance; re, the guy she had already agreed to marry and love, honor, and cherish as a husband.

Maybe my view is too narrow. I admit it is. As for your question on my ex-girlfriend, other than her word, I have no confirmation that she ever loved me or if she was simply using me as her first. At the very least (and even then, I could be wrong) I know that while we were together she was loyal to me, as was I to her.

I'm sorry, I simply fail to grasp how love can be emotion, but at the same time, could also include lying to the person you supposedly love to be with someone else. That isn't love, to me. You love someone because you can be completely honest with them about everything, like Chey has been with her husband, like I've been with Ricky. And maybe in the end this woman was honest to you, but you know? She loses points with me because she still lied to her fiance.

So you could justify what she did and why she did it all you like, and I'll let it go that you believe it was love. I'm simply not convinced.

In any case, I'll let this go. It's already dragged on far too long from the one question I asked.

[Kaijo]

Exactly. Each one of you believes the person who says they love you, really loves you; but you can't grasp someone else's different situation, when they say the same.

Different people, different situation, feelings no less valid. The world is full of different people, and different loves, and you have to make the choice to accept them or not. Ultimately, what we had wasn't good in the long run because she kept it secret from him, and yes, that was bad. For some Godwin fun, Hitler had a mustache, and Hitler did bad things, thereby mustaches are bad. Not exactly true, is it?

Unless someone wants to admit to being psychic, or she's actually here using a different name, then you don't really know how it was between us. If you wanna judge, feel free, but it swings both ways. Do you want someone else questioning how you feel about people? Probably not, because you're the only one who really knows for sure.

All I know is that, physically, emotionally, spiritually, we covered each other for quite awhile.

And when it was over and I knew I'd never see her again, it hurt like hell. And yes, I was angry and depressed for over a year. You probably don't know what it's like, to have a part of you ripped away, the kind of pain that tells you that you are missing something you'll never get back. The kind that tells you that you're missing several internal organs, that something inside of you is now gone that you didn't realize you had. To have someone you are so close to, that you're really one person, not two. I'm not kidding when I say that's what we had. The Disney fairy tales you read about?

Ultimately, it ended, because she couldn't, or didn't, want to deal with her fiance about the matter. I know what kind of person she is now and I've moved on. I know how badly she hurt me, but I am honest with myself about what went on, the good and the bad. If no one else wants to believe me, that's fine; after all, no one is obligated to believe anything about anyone here. Perhaps me even sharing this much was a mistake.

But live and learn.

[Kafriel]

I knew I'd never see her again

Forgive my ignorance, but what prevents you from visiting over?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Forgive my ignorance, but what prevents you from visiting over?

There's a lot of details I haven't shared, and won't for various reasons. But for one thing, she lives far away; I'm not about to jump a plane to go see her.

#2, the parting was a big mess. Again, not gonna go into details (although it's the stuff drama llamas are made of, heh), but suffice it to say, I'm not welcome in that circle of friends and she eventually cut things off cold turkey with me. I'm not the type to go where I'm not welcome, so I put her behind me and moved on. If she's still with her fiance(or most likely he's her husband now), then there's little chance she'll contact me. If she used me, then she has no more use for me. If she loved me, contacting me would open up things she'd probably prefer remain buried; she made her choice.

It's one of those things one understands best, if one has gone through it. Having a love so complete, and seemingly so perfect, that you want for nothing else. Guinen in Star Trek: Generations said something similar about the Nexus:

Guinen: "As if joy was something tangible, that you could wrap it around you like a blanket."
Picard: "And then you were transported-"
Guinen: "Ripped. Torn."

So it's partly distance, but mostly that I don't want to open that box again, due to various reasons. It won't go well, heh.

[RadiantBeam]

So, in general, just as a question, has anyone here ever been in an awkward situation because of their boyfriend/girlfriend?

For me, what takes the cake is what happened a few nights ago. We've managed to arrange things so that Ricky will be coming over to visit us during Fourth of July weekend, and my mom came into my room with my sister and gave us "the condom talk". @_@ In my case I can understand it, given my age and all, but my sister was a bit of a mystery since she's only seventeen and hasn't thought of that.

In any case... it was bad. Really short, really awkward, and the whole time my sister was going "Mom, we took health class!"

[zebra]

K, decided against posting on the current discussion . Even so I seem to be a minority in understanding Kaijo's POV more, but oh well I rather let it rest. Only glanced over the the discussion anyway


On a more lighthearted note:
Came to ask you guys what you think of poetry. Yes, in a relationship. As in giving something self composed to your significant other or being on the receiving end. Did, do, think?

I think it's a very sweet gesture, specially when it's for no special occasion whatsover ... but I always feel awkward, when getting some.
Received a very, very sweet piece from the one I'm seeing atm and couldn't respond more than with a "wow .. uhm thank you". What was pretty anticlimatic comparing to how I reacted when he brought me a rose prior to that.

Maybe I was also just taken a back because it reminded me of my last boyfriend who delivered the L word with a (rather clumsy, still sweet) poem and it brought back bad memories. But I reacted similary back then, too. And I loved him back, lol.
.. why do I always land guys like that anyway? Where are the unromantic guys not starting to compose songs and who hate to cuddle-sleep? Heard they exist.
Funnily he (present guy) said, he didn't do a similar things in years. Just hope he isn't let down if I don't come around with my own piece for the weekend, lol. I did bring him a souvenir from my weekend trip with my friends, which made him like dancing in joy, though

I am romantic per se, but I always feel kind of misplaced when it's such a 'corny' gesture. Dunno, moves me more when my boyfriend refrains from watching football because there is a movie I want to see, without me even having to ask. Or I'd rather bring him something to eat and a beer when he's watching a match than writing a poem. Know what I mean? The subtle everyday gestures are enough for me.

If they start to sing love songs or write poems that end in big lettered, red 'I <3 U's I stand there stunned and embarassed and don't know how to respond.
But that's pretty much only for grand gestures that come out of nowhere. If it's like a collage of photos or a nice text in a card for my birthday I'm simply happy.

Am I weird for not liking poetry and the like? (At least from private hands?)

Edit for faster post:
@RB, oh come on, you call that embaressing? My parents began with the basic sex ed when I was still in elementary. The condomn and pill talk came when I was 13,14ish? and started to get associated wth boys. Personally, I think it's better to have these talk earlier than too late. I hated these talks with my parents, but I'm glad they've always been open about the issue (despite my mum being very religious). And if I ever have kids I'll make sure to talk to them myself rather than just trusting the school with it.

And yeah my boyfriend's love(d) to bring me in these kind of situations ... XD But I'm not gonna elaborate on that

[Kafriel]

Most people don't appreciate poetry, and even more people are aware of the fact, so amateur poets tend to keep their words private...As for me, I'd love to read something, although I'd probably end up with harsh criticism on whatever reaches my hands

Dunno, moves me more when my boyfriend refrains from watching football because there is a movie I want to see, without me even having to ask. Or I'd rather bring him something to eat and a beer when he's watching a match than writing a poem. Know what I mean? The subtle everyday gestures are enough for me.

Who in their right mind recites a POEM in the middle of a match! There's a time and place for everything, you concentrate on the details of life because they are the most notable ones (we've had a respect convo not too long ago).
@ Arbitres: yeah that's the kind of stuff I'd drown in a torrent of criticism

[Pocky Yoshi]

How are you weird, zebra? IMHO find poetry A-ok with me. If you don't like it, that's you.
I'll admit some poems are a little over the top, but poetry expresses what's in your heart.
Hell, rappers back then were more poetic about having fun and partying for instance lol.
But when it's used in love, it's supposed spark something with ya.
So laughing at it for being corny for instance, is sparking something.
But then they're those who just go too romantically far lol.

It seems you like to be pampered, zebra(although everyone does). I guess a strong, honest, slighty horny, competitive and good guy will do it for you. Or rather for any other chick such as you.

[Ricky Controversy]

The problem is that most people who write poems are not poets--though the worst off may fancy themselves as such. They don't really know anything about poetic technique or critical theory relating to it, and tend to write very trite, plodding passages in one of a handful of predictable forms. I have been the recipient of a few of these, and it's a wee bit annoying. You want to like it because the person put their heart into it for you, but if you actually study poetry and read much of it, mediocre poetry gets harder and harder to stomach. Moreover, you get the sense that they wrote a poem not because that's their actual mode of expression, but because poems and songs are the romantic 'thing to do'.

I think it's better to use something that is very resonant to you to express your feelings to your partner, because that's likely part of you that they are attracted to in the first place.

[zebra]

Nah, I like poetry in general, since I read a lot. But getting some from my boyfriend? Aaaawkward.
Seeing what Ricky wrote .. it might also be because I am into literature and such (far from expert but still).

And pampered? It's actually the opposite. I'd like to be less pampered at the moment .

And your description fits my guy to a T. Only he is too considerate sometimes. But gee, all guys are way too nice in the beginning. Wears off, like you need to wash new pants a few times till they stay the same. No it's not criticism, I'm sure girls are way more nicer and considerate in the beginning, too.

@Kafriel, tsk you know what I meant!

@arbitres, why the french and german title? xD And where is the blues sky in the lines?

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by zebra

Nah, I like poetry in general, since I read a lot. But getting some from my boyfriend? Aaaawkward.
Seeing what Ricky wrote .. it might also be because I am into literature and such (far from expert but still).

Well, another part of the potential awkwardness is the vulnerability of the person writing the poem. A serious creator is most interested in satisfying their own creative impulse, but people end up writing poems for romantic purposes often despite having no notion of the subject otherwise. This means you get lots of people who are concerned with outside approval...specifically yours.

There are small elements of dependency and lacking self-confidence that come through there, so it's natural to be a bit bothered by that need.

[Kaijo]

Poetry is just like any other gift, and a good indicator for how you really feel. Since if you love someone, then anything they do for you is good, because it's from the heart; bad poetry and all. If it instead makes you uncomfortable, then it's time to start asking questions.

[cheyannew]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

So, in general, just as a question, has anyone here ever been in an awkward situation because of their boyfriend/girlfriend?

For me, what takes the cake is what happened a few nights ago. We've managed to arrange things so that Ricky will be coming over to visit us during Fourth of July weekend, and my mom came into my room with my sister and gave us "the condom talk". @_@ In my case I can understand it, given my age and all, but my sister was a bit of a mystery since she's only seventeen and hasn't thought of that.

In any case... it was bad. Really short, really awkward, and the whole time my sister was going "Mom, we took health class!"

rofl my son was newly turned 12 when I sat him down for that talk; I even offered to get a banana and condoms and demonstrate so he doesn't screw it up LOL

The horrified look on his face as he said "MOM I'm not even INTO girls like that YET!!!" told me that it was unecessary but hey, better safe than sorry IMO

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by cheyannew

rofl my son was newly turned 12 when I sat him down for that talk; I even offered to get a banana and condoms and demonstrate so he doesn't screw it up LOL

The horrified look on his face as he said "MOM I'm not even INTO girls like that YET!!!" told me that it was unecessary but hey, better safe than sorry IMO

Wow. My mum freaked out when I got myself a book on human anatomy back when I was 6 and asked her what are contraceptives.