[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[goldendust]

Anyone think that Kirie and Rosa might have had a connection? There are various moments where they interact with each other over certain things. As well that in EP2, they are the only ones who saw "Beatrice".

Originally Posted by haguruma

Therefore she basically all she says even in EP8 is, that what she showed in EP7 is not THE truth, but a very likely rendition of a part of that truth.

Bern admitted herself that she lacks love. Maybe that is why she cannot show the truth properly.

Lets say the truth is this

"Yasu wanted to create a miracle with the whole epitaph murders. However things do not go planned and a massacre ensues"


However in Bern's portrayal of the truth lacks love thus whole thing seems way more cruel and insane than it was.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

EDIT: Wait...Are you saying something about him being gay? Sorry, I'm not sure if this was just an example or what. I always thought the BT thing was mostly just joking.

Honestly, this was a mistake on my side that was totally unintentional. I intended to write "Ryûkishi is sexist", but I was already considering my next argument and forgot to pay attention. Though it's funny how there are so many points in the interview which are...kinda...strange if you consider that idea...
He calls BT his 相方 (partner, companion) and his whole rant about how people understand passion (恋: koi) but they don't understand love (愛: ai), in which he stops himself when he says that love is "when you always want to be with that person, share everything with that person" because he says that he doesn't have the words and he shouldn't even talk about it. And again his way of speaking how "men don't seem to understand how love works" and even KEIYA just reasoned towards the point where he could emulate this feeling...so women have an advantage.
He really is a strange guy...

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Haha! It was actually mentioned in the last interview that Hagu translated. It mentions him receiving a call from his editor after he finished reading it and him saying something like "Is this really how you are going to end it?"

Well, actually it is not Ryûkishi's editor, as in an internal 07thExpansion editor. Like it's said in my translation Ôta Katsushi is responsible for the novel version of Higurashi and Umineko. He is the vice-president of Seikaisha (a branch of Kodansha Novels) and was working as a highly acclaimed editor for FAUST, one of the most important magazines for mystery literature in Japan.

I really hope that we can continue talking about the interview once more people read it, not only because of what he says about the plot of Umineko, but mostly because of what he says about his approach towards mystery as a genre in general. I was pretty amazed that I read some parts quite right and even seem to have underestimated him at some points.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Honestly, this was a mistake on my side that was totally unintentional. I intended to write "Ryûkishi is sexist", but I was already considering my next argument and forgot to pay attention. Though it's funny how there are so many points in the interview which are...kinda...strange if you consider that idea...
He calls BT his 相方 (partner, companion) and his whole rant about how people understand passion (恋: koi) but they don't understand love (愛: ai), in which he stops himself when he says that love is "when you always want to be with that person, share everything with that person" because he says that he doesn't have the words and he shouldn't even talk about it. And again his way of speaking how "men don't seem to understand how love works" and even KEIYA just reasoned towards the point where he could emulate this feeling...so women have an advantage.
He really is a strange guy...

That does seem a bit strange. Would it be in bad taste to venture a guess that perhaps he wrote a bit of himself when considering Yasu's sexual confusion? I'm an English major, so forgive me for this tangent, but I'm trained to pay attention to those things against better judgement. I just think it's an interesting coincidence that his most interesting character has struggles about sexuality while he proclaims that "men don't understand" despite being a man. Not only that, but there are other things, like when he says something rather arrogant in the novel then basically apologizes in an interview(like the goat incident in episode 8).

If I were writing an essay about Umineko, I'd definitely try to argue that Ryuukishi wrote Umineko wanting someone to understand him. It would make the meta-fiction concepts more profound and explain both his stubborn denial to insert a guide on human nature(as it would render the novel pointless) and why he makes such claims.

Then again, I could be just trying too hard to find a meaning in his actions. Hey, English major! That's what I'm trained to do!

Well, actually it is not Ryûkishi's editor, as in an internal 07thExpansion editor. Like it's said in my translation Ôta Katsushi is responsible for the novel version of Higurashi and Umineko. He is the vice-president of Seikaisha (a branch of Kodansha Novels) and was working as a highly acclaimed editor for FAUST, one of the most important magazines for mystery literature in Japan.

I really hope that we can continue talking about the interview once more people read it, not only because of what he says about the plot of Umineko, but mostly because of what he says about his approach towards mystery as a genre in general. I was pretty amazed that I read some parts quite right and even seem to have underestimated him at some points.

Now I'm interested in the novel version. Is it radically different from the visual novel?

I'm also interested in the interview. I love reading people's take on the mystery genre, even when I disagree with it. It's a pretty fun topic.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Yeah I really want to read the rest of that interview. Seemed pretty interesting from what little google translate was able to barf up.

[Renall]

It would be, perhaps, a bit crass. On the other hand, historians and literary critics have speculated on as much and it's in no small sense a pretty important aspect of why a writer might write something.

For example, many film historians consider Ed Wood's Glen or Glenda an important work, not because it's any good - it's godawful, as with all things Ed Wood - but because they believe it touches on Wood's own personal sexuality and that the film is a rather frank artistic expression of his own conflicting feelings and a plea to be understood as a person in a time and environment that was incredibly hostile to unaccepted sexualities.

And also because the movie inspired Eraserhead, a work by a similarly insane filmmaker who was actually talented. I don't know what that movie says about David Lynch's sexuality, but fortunately he directed Dune so I know it apparently involves Sting in a fascist Speedo. But that's another matter entirely.

[AuraTwilight]

That does seem a bit strange. Would it be in bad taste to venture a guess that perhaps he wrote a bit of himself when considering Yasu's sexual confusion? I'm an English major, so forgive me for this tangent, but I'm trained to pay attention to those things against better judgement. I just think it's an interesting coincidence that his most interesting character has struggles about sexuality while he proclaims that "men don't understand" despite being a man. Not only that, but there are other things, like when he says something rather arrogant in the novel then basically apologizes in an interview(like the goat incident in episode 8).

If I were writing an essay about Umineko, I'd definitely try to argue that Ryuukishi wrote Umineko wanting someone to understand him. It would make the meta-fiction concepts more profound and explain both his stubborn denial to insert a guide on human nature(as it would render the novel pointless) and why he makes such claims.

Then again, I could be just trying too hard to find a meaning in his actions. Hey, English major! That's what I'm trained to do!

Blah blah blah Ryukishi is gay, got it.

[Used Can]

The problem with author's subjectivity is that it is far too meta. It'd be one thing to have a side character be a self-insert... say... someone named Cassiopeia Pendragon, who happens to be a writer, and then project himself on that character. That's cool and there are no problems with that. The problem is when the author projects his own subjectivity on the rules of the game and the answers, because in that case the reader is defeated at the very beginning, since any reader would expect the mystery to be solved through common knowledge and logic. It shouldn't be something in which you require an English, Psychology or Philosophy Major to be able to understand.

Having your own take at a genre is okay, as long as you respect it. The mystery genre is basically a game, and just like any other game, it is nothing but a set of rules - both written and generally understood. The moment you change the rules you're no longer following a game, but creating a new one. Think if I were to invite you to a game of chess, and by the end of the game I tell you the rules in this game are different. That's no longer chess at all, even if we're using a chess board, and chess pieces.

[Wanderer]

It's basically the experiment that Umineko is. He tried to turn Mystery into a subjective game rather than the usual objective one. I can certainly understand why people wouldn't like this, but I myself don't mind so much... most of the time.

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

I've read ryu's interview and I found it to be really informative about alot of things. For one thing Shannon's breasts aren't real, and that there was no corpse for Shannon in that shed. I always thought as much I just found it puzzling as to why Hideyoshi was lying for Yasu.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

It's basically the experiment that Umineko is.

I think he should have done a simpler experiment, though. The idea of a subjective mystery is already quite silly I think, though if he wanted to give it a try he could have, say, written a short story (as in, a one book/LN mystery) and then see how it fared, instead of going for 4 years only to find not so good results at the end. Honestly, not only was the fans' frustration very clear but R07's as well.

Anyhow, I'm wondering if people would still like an additional novel (a la Umineko Rei) to get full answers. After reading the part that was translated from that interview, personally, I think I'm better off without any more answers.

[AuraTwilight]

Anyhow, I'm wondering if people would still like an additional novel (a la Umineko Rei) to get full answers. After reading the part that was translated from that interview, personally, I think I'm better off without any more answers.

I agree. The more I see into Ryu's mind, the more ugly of a place it seems.

[battle22]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I agree. The more I see into Ryu's mind, the more ugly of a place it seems.

Why lol ? i really love umineko and i respect Ryu becouse of that

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well, if he's being meta and hiding the last truths just to be consistent with the story then I wouldn't mind it. If he doesnt really have a final truth and he's just bluffing then fuck him. I think most of us know what Beatrice was really up to, RK07s words of her having a "Benevolent thought process" pretty much confirm it.

His ideas about men , if you take them on a global scale, are pretty correct. Descendants are essentially insurance in countries without social nets, you try to have as many as possible so you can be taken cared of in your old age. But this train of though is hardly exclusive to men though. So yeah, he seems to paint people with a wide brush and it can totally rub people in the wrong way.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

His ideas about men , if you take them on a global scale, are pretty correct. Descendants are essentially insurance in countries without social nets, you try to have as many as possible so you can be taken cared of in your old age. But this train of though is hardly exclusive to men though. So yeah, he seems to paint people with a wide brush and it can totally rub people in the wrong way.

But this was never a theme for most of the characters in the story. The characters most concerned with their legacy were Eva and, to a much lesser extent (as far as we know), George. Krauss didn't seem to care that he was the heir apparent to the headship. Jessica didn't want it. Battler didn't seem to care that much when he got it in ep5. The other siblings never really talked about it. Kinzo thought his legacy was worthless and might as well disappear.

Certainly, most of the adults were concerned about their children, but it didn't seem to have much of anything to do with this supposed drive to carry on their blood and legacy. Hell, if we go by the Lion thing, Kinzo would've been perfectly content to have his child through Beatrice's lineage seen by the world as Krauss and Natsuhi's, which means he didn't really care about the public legacy as long as his private emotional connections existed.

Basically, these proclamations - at least his "dudes are like this" as opposed to his "chicks are like that" - have very little relevance to the actual story, and are somewhat factually inconsistent anyway, as Kinzo's behavior is more "womanlike" per his description and Beatrice's is equal parts feminine and masculine (she wants an emotional connection, but she also cares about the legacy of the witch). If he was trying to make a thematic point about that dual nature... well, you and I have read the same book. Did he? I never saw that.

It's fine to discuss the themes of your work. It just gets confusing when the themes you talk about weren't actually in your work, or were flatly contradicted or made more complex by your work than you yourself seem to be stating.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

It's fine to discuss the themes of your work. It just gets confusing when the themes you talk about weren't actually in your work, or were flatly contradicted or made more complex by your work than you yourself seem to be stating.

I actually don't see them as that inconsistent at all...you just don't have to take everything literal and try to apply it to the characters, some of this stuff is rather about a mindset not about their actuall thought processes. But let's look at some of the characters.

Kinzô is interested in possessing all of Beatrice and is especially concerned about binding her to a certain body. He goes as far to break other people only to get Beatrice in the flesh; their love alone (which they did share) is not enough for him. He is also concerned about who his heir is going to be in the sense that only somebody who understands him, who thinks like Kinzô himself, may become the next head. This can not only be seen as him wanting a proper heir but also wanting to pass himself down to the next generation.
So you could say he is a pretty masculine character in Ryûkishi's theory.

Eva on the other hand really is on first sight a reversal of his typology of women. Her goals are receiving an heir and succeeding, also her values appear more oriented towards the physical than towards the emotional.
Yet if we look deeper into her character and how it is constructed throughout all the stories, it becomes clear that the Eva who interacts with people beside Hideyoshi is an act. She is forcefully turning herself into a man in order not to be cut down by her older brother and father...this is something which is actually not herself and which is torturing her (we already caught a glimpse of that during EP1). So while she is supressing her female characteristics to succeed, the act of supression alone shows that she is a very female character.

The same thing can be done for almost all characters in Umineko. It is not like Ryûkishi was writing the characters this way with a certain gender-theory in mind...it's rather that his idea of gender, which is very typical for a Japanese man around his (supposed) age, is mirrored by his characters even without the active intention to turn them into those.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well, Im just describing the actual worlds views on the subjects, not how RK07 represents the world in his novels. He usually subverts the more common patriarchal society and submissive female roles that are prevalent in just about every part of the world.

Regardless, the person that wrote the stories that created the foundation for the rest of them was "Yasu" right? A character who probably likened itself more female than male. So her points of view might skew the whole narrative of how the people actually where. So if Yasu was in fact more of an archaic manly man the story might have a different bent where every single character is concerned about reproduction rather than "love"

Without reproduction it cannot be seen!

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I actually don't see them as that inconsistent at all...you just don't have to take everything literal and try to apply it to the characters, some of this stuff is rather about a mindset not about their actuall thought processes. But let's look at some of the characters.

Most of those things are not terribly major themes. He's been beating us upside the head with his major themes for quite a long time. Parents and children have been there in the story, but they've not been nearly as important as everything else.

So for him to place quite so much emphasis on it in an interview makes it seem like it's incredibly important somehow, but it really isn't. The broad strokes are not necessary to apply the ideas to Yasu's character (who can be developed in a complex environment on her own), and none of them apply to Battler whatsoever. And most everyone else is, by Ryukishi's own effective decision not to develop them as strongly, largely inconsequential outside of general motivation development. And as you yourself said, a lot of that motivational development is at least contradictory or more complex than the broad brush paints.

I should also point out that Eva's desire for the headship is not entirely a take that to her father and brother. It's certainly part of it, but I don't think it's entirely why that matters to her. But if you look at Rudolf and Rosa, it seems utterly irrelevant to their characters. Even the more general look at the way they treat their children seems to bring up totally different themes.

So basically I still don't know why Ryukishi would say something broadly when he could say something more specifically, as he seems to primarily be discussing Beatrice, not everybody else in his work (or in the world).

[AuraTwilight]

Why lol ? i really love umineko and i respect Ryu becouse of that

Because he's a misogynistic asshole who bases his characters on real-life mentally ill people and thus takes advantage of them? Because his views of morality are so fucked up that he's willing to justify serial killing as a good thing?

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Rudolf wanted to tell but apparently he never makes in time to tell the truth. In Ep 1 he dies, in Ep 5 other things happen, in Ep 6 he believes (or pretends to) that Kirye and Battler are dead.

What I'm trying to get at is this is a plan that precedes all Rokkenjima games and there is probably the same plan in Rokkenjima Prime. For example, the Epitaph Game is something that nearly occurs in every episode, even though EP4 is a rather messed up version of that. The point is to remember in the background that this happens and to dig up clues from that.

Granted, I don't think his plan to reveal the info has that much of an effect. In EP1, the two are dead so even if he did tell Kyrie, he never told Battler and they're dead anyways so... But for example in EP6. I don't think the fact that Meta-Battler chose Kyrie to rescue him was an accident. I think it was some sort of attempt to reflect the gameboard at that point. However, this idea may be very important in EP3, for example.

Anyways, it's an idea to keep in mind while rereading and analyzing Kyrie's behavior.

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

I always thought as much I just found it puzzling as to why Hideyoshi was lying for Yasu.

It's this part that I love about how the fans reacted. It's too easy for us to go, "Nah... they can't ALL be lying, can they? That would just be impossible!" And then we close off avenues of thinking with that... 8)

Originally Posted by Renall

Kinzo thought his legacy was worthless and might as well disappear.

Actually, with Kinzo, the first scene in the entire game is about Nanjo and Genji encouraging Kinzo to come up with some kind of will. Now definitely Kinzo thought leaving things to his 'real' family as opposed to the Beatrice line was never his plan at all. But the whole point was that after that he came up with his silly Epitaph idea which *did* resurrect the Beatrice line in some way.

So, I was thinking about why this is the first scene and it hit me that it's probably Beatrice who also came up with the of the Epitaph game and the murders as her legacy.

In other words, both had unconventional, perverted and strange legacies. 8)

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

It's easy to to think that they lie I'm just wondering why he is lying for her. Same with Jessica and Kyrie in Ep 4.