Kanon - 2006 - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[nadare]

I bet Shiro is gonna pull off a Mitsuki(Full Moon Wo Sagashite). Having an operation during her birthday xD. Just my wild imagination =/.

[Raniie]

Originally Posted by Mentar

This is gonna be unpleasant. Let's finish this one quickly.

Raniie, I don't want to spoil your enthusiasm you show in working on Kanon. If you want to take and use our technical work (timing, typesetting and encoding) for your own version, be my guest. If you want to publicly distribute it afterwards, things become much less enjoyable, but ALAS.

(...)

Fair enough?

First off, I didn't mean any disrespect. I enjoy the work you / SS-E has done for Kanon and was only trying to make it better. -But, my initial post does seem it imply it came from an official source, which is where I went wrong. So I apologize for any harm done. I'll be more careful about it next time, again sorry.

I've edited my post to clear up any misunderstanding.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Skane, I'm hating you for implying all around the entire Kannon thread about a HUGE is about to happen in Nayuki and/or Ayu's up coming arc that would be the mother of all shock, bigger than anything the other girl's arc have thrown at us...!!

...How 'bad' is it going to be?

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Skane, I'm hating you for implying all around the entire Kannon thread about a HUGE is about to happen in Nayuki and/or Ayu's up coming arc that would be the mother of all shock, bigger than anything the other girl's arc have thrown at us...!!

...How 'bad' is it going to be?

All I will say is... wait and see.

Cheers.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by Skane

[*]Vindication on why Shiori visited the school in the first place. Do you get it now, people? The actual initial reason for why Shiori visited the school in the first place?

It was to meet her SISTER. NOT Yuuichi! SISTER!

*cough* *hack* *wheeze*

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know you may be right, there's no need to rub it in our faces.

But don't get cocky just yet......

Since on the other hand, Shiori might also have come in hope of seeing Yuuichi as well. Mainly because of her mentioning that she "doesn't know" which class the "person" she's waiting for is in. IMHO, though she made other subtle lies concerning her illness, she would not make such a non-subtle lie about not knowing which class Kaori is in if she came to see her sister, as she knew that very well, since she did go to school for one day before fainting.

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by Skane

Vindication on why Shiori visited the school in the first place. Do you get it now, people? The actual initial reason for why Shiori visited the school in the first place?

It was to meet her SISTER. NOT Yuuichi! SISTER!

*cough* *hack* *wheeze*

Unfortunately, nope.

It could be U1's own opinion, or he's just saying it to convince Kaori to go to the party. There were too many things pointing to the conclusion that Shiori went to school to visit U1, not Kaori. True, she did want to have bento with Kaori, and of course she did want to see Kaori, but...

1)Why she said she didn't know the name nor the class of the person she's trying to meet? Yes, she could have lied, but other than the illness, I don't see a reason why she needed to lie about that to a person she just met the second time;

2)Why her first visit happened to be the day after she bumped into U1 and Ayu?

3)Why would she come to visit Kaori, when she herself said that she's "trying her best not to see Kaori" in episode 17?

If you can give a convincing answer to those 3 questions, then I will accept that she's there to see Kaori.

Only one scene confused me in this episode... What's up with Yuuichi's and Shiori's reaction at the crab? I totally didn't get that. Can anyone explain, please?

'Cause that store is known to sell weird stuff toys, and that crab is weird indeed. How often do you see a crab stuff toy (and a big one too)?

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know you may be right, there's no need to rub it in our faces.

But don't get cocky just yet......

Since on the other hand, Shiori might also have come in hope of seeing Yuuichi as well. Mainly because of her mentioning that she "doesn't know" which class the "person" she's waiting for is in. IMHO, though she made other subtle lies concerning her illness, she would not make such a non-subtle lie about not knowing which class Kaori is in if she came to see her sister, as she knew that very well, since she did go to school for one day before fainting.

Well, one of the problems here is that KyoAni did not mention Shiori's love for drama-acting. Since they are long past that stage of her arc, I think it is safe to mention this now.

Regardless, even if you discard that point( which I will, since KyoAni chose to... for whatever reason they have), there has been no indication that Kaori informed Shiori where her class was. After all, they were no longer on speaking terms( due to Kaori that is) and it is not too far-fetched to believe that Shiori did not manage to find out where Kaori's class was before she collapsed.

Not since that first day has Shiori ever attended class again, until the current frame of time. So she had no way of finding out, unless she went back to the school, which she did not until that day when Jun spotted her.

Kaori's importance to Shiori has also been emphasised time after time. To Shiori, Kaori is more important to her than Yuuichi. Yuuichi has become important to her of course, but she places more importance on Kaori.

That is why it only makes sense that Shiori wanted to meet Kaori at school during that first visit. Yuuichi was still a stranger to her at that point. A familiar face maybe, but not a friend to the point where one would stand alone outdoors while it is snowing and one is in ill-health.

The subsequent visits were Yuuichi-related, because Yuuichi had become a friend by that point, and he was providing her with many memorable memories that she could cherish before she perished. However, he was still not her main goal( and never was).

This is an important point to remember about Shiori's arc. The importance in on the reconciliation of the two sisters. Anything else is a bonus.

Cheers.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Unfortunately, nope.

It could be U1's own opinion, or he's just saying it to convince Kaori to go to the party. There were too many things pointing to the conclusion that Shiori went to school to visit U1, not Kaori. True, she did want to have bento with Kaori, and of course she did want to see Kaori, but...

If she wants to do this with Kaori, and she wants to do that with Kaori... I think it is safe to say that she badly wants to reconcile with Kaori.

*quack* *quack*

I tangent a bit too much though, onwards to your three points.

Originally Posted by guuchan

1)Why she said she didn't know the name nor the class of the person she's trying to meet? Yes, she could have lied, but other than the illness, I don't see a reason why she needed to lie about that to a person she just met the second time;

Why would she need to tell the truth to a stranger? How often do you spill out your personal problems to a person whom you only have met once before?

Kaori is a sensitive issue to Shiori, and Shiori knows that Kaori does not want to acknowledge her existence. Recall how Shiori stated that she had been obliging her sister and trying not to trouble Kaori( even though it was not what Shiori wanted).

If Yuuichi had not been trustworthy enough, he might have gossiped about Kaori's 'dirty little secret' and that would have been very troubling for Kaori instead. So why not make a small little white lie?

Notice how it took a DAMN LONG time before Shiori finally came clean about the relationship between her and Kaori. Yuuichi more or less already placed the pieces together by then, but Shiori never admitted about her relation to Kaori until much later in the series.

She even lied about a second Kaori, darn it. Remember that scene? So yeah... habitual lying to Yuuichi is not exactly something she can't do.

Originally Posted by guuchan

2)Why her first visit happened to be the day after she bumped into U1 and Ayu?

Because that was the day after her failed suicide attempt?

That chance encounter with Yuuichi and Ayu was what finally gave her the courage to try and approach Kaori in school.

Originally Posted by guuchan

3)Why would she come to visit Kaori, when she herself said that she's "trying her best not to see Kaori" in episode 17?

Note the 'trying' part.

Just as much as Kaori is trying to delude herself into thinking that it is better to pretend that Shiori is not her little sister, Shiori is not very good at trying to not see Kaori.

Recall the episode where Shiori greeted Kaori at home before Kaori proceeded to slump at her door. That ONE scene alone highlighted the 'trying' part on both sisters.

Originally Posted by guuchan

If you can give a convincing answer to those 3 questions, then I will accept that she's there to see Kaori.

"Was I good enough for you?"

Kidding, kidding. I don't want to give anyone nightmares. Seriously though, I hope I have explained enough in sufficient detail. Feel free to query further.

Originally Posted by guuchan

'Cause that store is known to sell weird stuff toys, and that crab is weird indeed. How often do you see a crab stuff toy (and a big one too)?

I thought it was the stuffed-toy store... but it still didn't click with me. I guess this must be one of those scenes where the joke just flies over me.

Cheers.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

As for the Ayu ending vs Nayuki ending thing. I don't get why some people react so strongly to comments like "we might have a Nayuki ending" (the same thing's happening over at 2ch with Japanese fans). There's no point in arguing because there's no telling what Kyoani will do (original developments, for example). But just because some Nayuki-fans are hoping for a Nayuki-end doesn't mean they should be slammed.

It's because the whole "Ayu is the heorine!" image is too deeply rooted in people's mind, and in most harem-style shows it's setup so that you just know who the guy will end up with and they never really tries to break that formula thus people is fixed in this mindset that the guy ending up with another girl that is not the heroine is impossible.

I'd like to see Kyoani break this trend, since we've never been treated to an adaptation of Kanon where Nayuki isn't reduced to the "supporter" role just so they can dodge her arc conflict with Ayu, but us game veterans know that's not what Nayuki's story is about, Nayuki needs a lot of love too, probably more so than any other character in Kanon. Though I won't be sad if they don't do this as Kyoani Kanon is still an excellent adaptation of the game material and its merits far out-weights the negatives which it has.

[FatPianoBoy]

KyoAni made me cry again
"Was I able to keep smiling?"
"There are so many things I want to do, so many people I want to see, and so many places I want to go. I think that I really don't want to die yet."
"I tried to slit my wrist, once."
Shiori...

Such a great episode. It definitely felt too short, but maybe that's the whole point: Shiori's life was too short

Originally Posted by houkoholic

It's because the whole "Ayu is the heorine!" image is too deeply rooted in people's mind, and in most harem-style shows it's setup so that you just know who the guy will end up with and they never really tries to break that formula thus people is fixed in this mindset that the guy ending up with another girl that is not the heroine is impossible.

A friend of mine has been having this exact same problem. He keeps saying that they're spending too much time on the "other girls" and not enough on the "main girl" (Ayu). I keep telling him that they're allthe main girls, but he says that since Ayu's the one having those dreams in some of the opening scenes and she's the one running around in the ED, that she has to be the main character. He's incorrigible

[Shana-tan]

I think the episode was a little "forced"...

And I don't know who else notice that Yuuichi didn't cry for Makoto or Shiori, but he did for Mai... that's strange...

[VRMN]

Originally Posted by Shana-tan

I think the episode was a little "forced"...

And I don't know who else notice that Yuuichi didn't cry for Makoto or Shiori, but he did for Mai... that's strange...

In my opinion, the impact of Shiori hasn't had time to hit. He's had a few restless nights because of the events in Shiori's arc (see: the beginning of this episode and the "tired" look on his face for the past two which even Ayu noticed), but she hasn't actually gone yet. The preview for episode 19 leads me to believe that he will break down (go rewatch it, it seems quite obvious that he's crying on the bench).

As for Makoto, we don't know if he cried or not (his reaction was off screen for the most part, but it's fair to assume that he didn't), but this stuff's accumulating - it's only natural that the reactions will increase in intensity as more crap goes down.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by Skane

Regardless, even if you discard that point( which I will, since KyoAni chose to... for whatever reason they have), there has been no indication that Kaori informed Shiori where her class was. After all, they were no longer on speaking terms( due to Kaori that is) and it is not too far-fetched to believe that Shiori did not manage to find out where Kaori's class was before she collapsed.

Not since that first day has Shiori ever attended class again, until the current frame of time. So she had no way of finding out, unless she went back to the school, which she did not until that day when Jun spotted her.

With due respect, I find that absurd. When my little brother enrolled in the same school as I did, before classes began in his first day, I took the trouble to find out which class that annoying brat was allotted to rather than waiting after school ended. So I do not believe for once that Shiori does not even remotely know which class Kaori is in, no matter how estranged the sisters are. You're going to have to try better, for I'm not convinced.

[monir]

The signs are ominous enough to presume that Yuiichi could very well enter into another episode of suppressed memory. If that were to happen, may be the questions about a 2nd season of Kanon will be entertained?

Jokes aside, Yuiichi's mental state should be taut and ready to snap any second now after all the things he has gone through. It's amazing that he can still maintain some form of composure.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

With due respect, I find that absurd. When my little brother enrolled in the same school as I did, before classes began in his first day, I took the trouble to find out which class that annoying brat was allotted to rather than waiting after school ended. So I do not believe for once that Shiori does not even remotely know which class Kaori is in, no matter how estranged the sisters are. You're going to have to try better, for I'm not convinced.

? But that was you in the role of a 'guardian' looking out for your younger charge. It would be easier for you to gain the information from the relevant authorities, since you are already a senior in that school.

Shiori is not in your shoes. She is the younger charge this time, and attending school for the first time. She collapsed on the first day itself, so that barely gave her any time to ask around for information, especially since they can just brush her aside by telling her to ask Kaori herself.

After all, wouldn't it seem odd to you if a younger sister asked for her elder sister's class? Why wouldn't the elder sister have told her at home? This then leads back to the problem of Shiori not wanting to trouble her elder sister. She would need a cover story for people to listen to if they pry her about it, and this might have delayed her and/or gave her hesitation.

Cheers.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by Skane

? But that was you in the role of a 'guardian' looking out for your younger charge. It would be easier for you to gain the information from the relevant authorities, since you are already a senior in that school.

Shiori is not in your shoes. She is the younger charge this time, and attending school for the first time. She collapsed on the first day itself, so that barely gave her any time to ask around for information, especially since they can just brush her aside by telling her to ask Kaori herself.

Well, perhaps I should mention this as well, in his second year, it was my bro's turn that came prying into my privacy and asking what class I was in. I promptly told him in order to drive him out of my sight.

Anyway, it was never mentioned what time of the day Shiori had fainted and collapsed. I could argue that she met Kaori and asked about which class she was in during recess before she collapsed.

After all, wouldn't it seem odd to you if a younger sister asked for her elder sister's class? Why wouldn't the elder sister have told her at home? This then leads back to the problem of Shiori not wanting to trouble her elder sister. She would need a cover story for people to listen to if they pry her about it, and this might have delayed her and/or gave her hesitation.

Cheers.

The reason you find it odd is because it is all based on your theory that Shiori was looking for Kaori, and you have believed it to be true.

It wouldn't seem odd at all if it was based on the theory that she was looking for Yuuichi. From the second theory, she genuinely didn't know which class Yuuichi was in, so it was a good way to dodge Yuuichi's question while also telling the truth at the same time.

For now, I stand by my viewpoint that Shiori was looking for Yuuichi. A compromise to our viewpoints would be that she was looking for both Kaori and Yuuichi.

[Meophist]

Originally Posted by Skane

• Vindication on why Shiori visited the school in the first place. Do you get it now, people? The actual initial reason for why Shiori visited the school in the first place?
  
  It was to meet her SISTER. NOT Yuuichi! SISTER!
  
  *cough* *hack* *wheeze*
  .

Then, I guess, we'll never agree. I still think she visited on that day(which was not the first day of the semister) to meet Yuuichi.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Well, perhaps I should mention this as well, in his second year, it was my bro's turn that came prying into my privacy and asking what class I was in. I promptly told him in order to drive him out of my sight.

Anyway, it was never mentioned what time of the day Shiori had fainted and collapsed. I could argue that she met Kaori and asked about which class she was in during recess before she collapsed.

The reason you find it odd is because it is all based on your theory that Shiori was looking for Kaori, and you have believed it to be true.

It wouldn't seem odd at all if it was based on the theory that she was looking for Yuuichi. From the second theory, she genuinely didn't know which class Yuuichi was in, so it was a good way to dodge Yuuichi's question while also telling the truth at the same time.

For now, I stand by my viewpoint that Shiori was looking for Yuuichi. A compromise to our viewpoints would be that she was looking for both Kaori and Yuuichi.

Or alternatively we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I have already stated my reasons about the purpose of Shiori's first visit to the school. As convinced as you are of your stance, so am I of mine.

Cheers.

[Chaos2Frozen]

I've got an idea about why he cried for Mai only, unlike Shiro and Makoto he most likely wasn't expecting Mai to die, so it probably came as a bigger and sudden shock than the other two.

Another reason might also be because he felt slightly responsible for what Mai had gone through when he left. I know it's also the same with Makoto, but he only knew the 'human' her for a few days...

But me being bias, I'll say that he just likes Mai better =P

That aside, I have faith that Yuuichi is very strong mentally (like what Mai's power told her before), so he would able to pull himself through this somehow... But I don't think it would be fast nor easy...

[Skane]

Indeed. The traumatisation of Yuuichi ain't over yet. The girls get more sympathy of course, but Yuuichi is actually the most abused in Kanon when you think about it.

Scriptwriters: "We'll break him! Make him emo!"

Hehe.