2010-08-08, 16:29 | Link #862 | |
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But I will do you the courtesy of answering your post, because this seems to have flown right past you the past few times it was mentioned. It was NEVER the argument that Magic couldn't be as destructive as mass-based weapons. The argument was always: "Magic is more versatile, flexible, and capable of being safer to use than mass-based weapons." Magic can kill and can blow up, but it can do so much more; it can pound through several layers of walls to strike out and knock out someone on the other side with no lasting harm. Mass-based weapons can ONLY kill. The other part of the argument is that ANYONE can use a mass-based weapon. Therefore you can pump out billions of them and arm people to the teeth. Wheras magic needs a mage and those can be better controlled. |
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2010-08-08, 16:38 | Link #864 | |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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"Metafiction" point of view is the only way I could try rationalize TSAB being inept. (well, yeah, no one cares about grunts and they are here to make the core cast look good anyway! Rule of cool and all) |
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2010-08-08, 17:02 | Link #865 | ||
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Given the choice, would you honestly go with just a gun, or would you go with magic as laid down by the series? Because to me, and many other people, magic looks damn appealing. It can basically do whatever you need it to. So either you take the option with one choice. Or take you take the option with dozens of choices. Quote:
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2010-08-08, 17:11 | Link #867 | ||
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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I like how you oversimplify things to your own convenience. In the last news, SWAT and riot control forces also have non-lethal options! It's the magic of combined arms and armor.
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2010-08-08, 17:32 | Link #868 | ||||
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By the way, remember to ignore the point in your next post, about how magic can stop people without any risk of death or injury. Only by ignoring it, can you continue to try and argue your points! |
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2010-08-08, 17:54 | Link #869 | |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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And no, just because you take the Somalia example does not mean that the TSAB grunts or Mid civvies will suddenly cast the Firearm Apocalypse on Mid! |
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2010-08-08, 18:17 | Link #871 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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2010-08-08, 18:22 | Link #872 | ||
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But you really think mass-producing guns will somehow make everyone safer? Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_deaths Are all those deaths worth the chance that maybe, in some rare hypothetical situation, might save a person. Or two. Possibly. Or to put it another way: Homicide rates in the United States are two to four times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability. The graph there shows about 10,000 deaths by handguns each year in the US. How many people are you willing to sacrifice in the name of safety and security? Just tell me that, because I can respect a decision to kill some people in order to make some others safer. I wouldn't agree with it, but I could understand it. It would make a lot more sense than tossing a bunch of guns out there just to see what happens. |
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2010-08-09, 00:56 | Link #873 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Compare that to the single point "system" apparently beloved by the TSAB when it comes to the Arcenciel. Quote:
What you are seeing in StrikerS is a temporary period in which CAMF training outpaces the speed that Scarlietti can (or wants to) upgrade the AMF. However, we already know this is a game that is ultimately won by AMF so given enough time and need and what we know of the energy output potential of Jewel Seeds, Scarlietti will almost certainly come out with a "Full-Shafter". If he is given more warning by mass training in CAMF (which will take years to implement), he'll be forced to change his tradeoffs and upgrade, and in good time. In which cases he'll be ahead of the Aces and Forwards in the curve, and they may well die in the first battle. Intentionally or unintentionally, a case can be made that Regius really saved our heroes by banning AMF training. Quote:
If you want to see the real balance between talent and training, consider how fast Nanoha became a threat. Talent is 9 parts of the equation, especially as you reach the real elite. Quote:
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Besides, the main point in that paragraph was to point out the sheer lack of control the TSAB has over their magical weapons, which shafts any theoretical advantages they may have. Don't shift the topic. Quote:
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1) Though there was confusion, no nukes were lost. Which means the control was better than you thought it was. 2) Nukes were lost but they never made it to the other side. Ditto. 3) Nukes actually made it to the other side but they can't use it. Which means the technical difficulty is higher than you thought. 4) Nukes actually made it to the other side, they can use it, but they don't. Which means human nature is more rational, or at least more self-preserving, than you thought. Quote:
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2010-08-09, 01:57 | Link #874 | |||||
The Resurrector
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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The idea of the reproductive system was to mimic the pattern or attribute of your guns to nuclear weapons analogy. They are definitely and meant to be not the same thing, but the correlation between them is clear. When you said guns led to nuclear weapons, I countered by alleging the understanding of the reproductive system led to an increase of rapes and premarital sex. Both analogies follow the same pattern: discovery of something leads to something bad (this is what is called shared abstraction, if you don't already know). So, since both discoveries are bad, one viable option is to ban them from human knowledge, which is what the context in Nanohaverse is about. The outcome of this ban should be what you and I want: the reduction (or better yet, total annihilation) of the bad things from the discoveries. But, we know that it is not the case; nuclear weapon proliferation (and in my case, increased rapes and premarital sex) will happen one way or another even if mankind were not to know about guns (and in my case, the reproductive system). Advancement does not happen in a singular cause-and-effect scenario, so it invalidates this argument of yours that I specifically replied to: Quote:
And if you don't understand why pebble was mentioned, I had specifically made it easier to understand in the same post (which I presume you just gloss over them): Quote:
In response to your other point for this "one-time threat", they are still needing time to perfect these new prototypes when they could've easily deployed normal mass-based weapons (which they have a knowledge of) to deal with the threat quickly. If you're countering with "founding principles", please do go have a look at what I replied to Keroko in the Manga thread. Or, to prevent laziness: Quote:
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If you see in certain countries, the normal people are never allowed to own a gun. But, despite the law, aggression and violence still happen (and probably rising). So, we can't ever draw a direct correlation between the two points. We don't know if "dumb" weapons are effective against magic (since we're never given the chance to examine them ), but these "dumb" weapons can be used readily on the threat right now we're wondering why it is not done so (which somehow led to this debate). |
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2010-08-09, 07:21 | Link #875 | |
Utu Class Planetoid
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reading, UK
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Its not like they haven't brought any of them and none of the others would individually be as useful. |
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2010-08-09, 07:45 | Link #876 | |
Utu Class Planetoid
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reading, UK
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The last year for which we have figures violent crime dropped 3% in England and Wales. So no violence is not probably rising despite the recession. |
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2010-08-09, 07:48 | Link #877 | |
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
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The primary argument against handguns is the 'dumb' factor. Not everyone is a mage in Nanohaverse and even fewer are WMD variety. We don't need NPC gang violence. They have limiters for a reason too. I don't care if you say 100 or so, that is still a very small number compared to what the US arsenal has of their own brand of luls. I don't think its a problem if the series itself questions the weapon types allowed.
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Last edited by itanshi1; 2010-08-09 at 08:10. |
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2010-08-09, 07:56 | Link #878 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Stunning is usual, but it also has limitations. The evidence suggests that it is more of an incremental improvement on our "less-lethal" stuff than something that is inherently non-lethal. And like real "less lethal" rounds, magical rounds are slow - in fact, it is harder to make them non-lethal as they get faster, just like real rounds. Pass through various materials. Well, if you have AOE capability or Windelshaft. The average mage will still have to do it the old fashion way. Be tuned for various effects. Sometimes, but again something not really available to the rank and file. Bind, OK. Capture is kind of like bind. Shield, OK, but we are going from offensive applications to defensive. Put out fires ... another rare one as far as can be seen. Most are still relying on those ridiculous puff puff extinguishers. Protect from various gases. Yes, they have proven to have limited NBC capability, but only if they are prepared. Unlike a gas suit, if they are hit by a sudden attack, they'll die before they can adapt. Fly, OK though that's a medium rare, and you forgot heal. As something for the gendarmie magic is pretty nice. As something for operations closer to the military end of the spectrum, in comparison to even our own rounds (let alone something that an interdimensional civilization can dream up), they lack speed, range and in an environment that uses magic as well, concealment. |
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2010-08-09, 08:20 | Link #879 | ||
Utu Class Planetoid
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reading, UK
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When it is conscription plus making them dependent on ongoing support from the military or finding someway of substituting for it after they end their term of service? Not to mention TSAB doesn't practice conscription [Suberu wouldn't have had the option not to join the military if that were the case.]. It occasionally appears to use military service as a form of voluntary criminal restitution but that isn't of the level of conscription. Quote:
It makes you good in a fight or a disaster but I'll note Suberu didn't end up with the quiet and peaceful life she wanted. She hasn't even despite her professional specialization not including combat managed to keep from being thrown into combat regularly. Except of course TSAB who have a better idea of the limitations and disadvantages of combat cyborgs felt the production of them was immoral and not cost effective. There is a point where things carry too high a moral price [Americans seem to thing gun control is such a point despite the immorality of not optimally defending your citizenry.] |
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2010-08-09, 08:58 | Link #880 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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In any case, personally I'm long past the point when I can just assume they know best in the face of everything else. Among OECD countries, America does have a fairly high crime, including homicide, rate. On the other hand, it is far from clear how much of it is due to guns and how much of it is due to subtle cultural and geographic factors. And ultimately, "too high a moral price" has to be weighed against the opposite end, which in Mid can be extremely heavy. National security / world threatening heavy, which is not a scenario familiar to our world. An increased ability to deal with those threats is worth a lot in Midchildra. |
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