Have I missed something? Hard vs Softsub

[checkers]

Originally Posted by Toua

The thing is though, there *are* rational reasons for using hardsubs, it's just that some people have taken upon themselves to strike down any line of thought that doesn't approve of subtitles being in public domain, and hardsubs shoulder that line of thought more than anything else.

There may be rational reasons, but preventing script stealing is not one of them.

This took me around two hours. One hour was the one off setup & tweaking for the series/font. The other hour was the actual work, and consisted of the first 15 minutes involving actual work (identifying the first signs), and then the rest just keeping an eye on progress to ensure nothing got held up. Let me point out: the accuracy of the OCR really is this good, there was no human intervention apart from changing the detection settings and identifying each letter of the alphabet once or twice. You could time this script very quickly (only the start is desynced for some reason), and correct the few spelling mistakes on the fly at the same time.

[Medalist]

Originally Posted by Sylf

When people started making h.264 releases, they had to do the right thing and use mkv container. And when they used mkv container, they had to do the right thing and use the softsub. As such, softsub became a part of higher quality package.

... Who's the person who decides what the "right" thing is? Youaore implying that H.264 should only be handled and encoded in a certain way. You say the right thing for MKV is to use softsubs, and then you state that Softsubs + H.264 + MKV are the higher quality package?

Says who?

I have no issue with softsubs or for that matter h.264 or mkv but you make it seem like there is only one way to do things.

Softsubs may only be handled in MKV but that doesn't mean the right thing is to always put softsubs in mkv.

#Medalist

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Medalist

... Who's the person who decides what the "right" thing is? Youaore implying that H.264 should only be handled and encoded in a certain way. You say the right thing for MKV is to use softsubs, and then you state that Softsubs + H.264 + MKV are the higher quality package?

Says who?

I have no issue with softsubs or for that matter h.264 or mkv but you make it seem like there is only one way to do things.

Softsubs may only be handled in MKV but that doesn't mean the right thing is to always put softsubs in mkv.

#Medalist

Sylf meant that softsubs are PERCEIVED as the right thing, at least by some people.

[JediNight]

Well softsubs can be in OGM (seems forgotten/abandoned), MKV, MP4, and probably 1-2 other containers I'm not aware of

AVI is just a very old container, and while I've heard of people being able to get H264 working in AVI, it's not advisable. At least MKV and MP4 are able to handle H264 just fine though.

[dj_tjerk]

OGM = haxxed
MKV = not haxxed?
MP4 = standard is there (for softsubs).. implementation, not quite there yet (decode support is missing?)

and avi.. well. .nothing wrong with avi, just doesnt officially support that much.

[ArchMageZeratuL]

ArabianSwan's reply was right on the mark: we are doing this SO FANS CAN ENJOY IT, making it harder for "other groups to steal it" is going against that very principle. And, as it has been pointed out, it seems rather hypocritical for anyone to claim any rights over fansubs, when you didn't even have the rights to MAKE them in the first place.

For clarification, it's not just the video/audio distribution that is a violation of copyright - the very act of publishing unofficial subtitles, even as standalone files, is against the Berne Convention.

That said, I don't think that fansubbing is unethical - unless you try to claim more rights over the fansubs than you ever had in the first place.

As for OGM, remember that OGM is a hack to have an entire AVI inside an Ogg file. I'm not sure if it handles softsubs in the Ogg or AVI part. AVI can also handle softsubs, by the way. The problem with softsubs with AVI and OGM is the same - no font attachment support. You either give the user fontpacks and make them install it or use system fonts.

Unfortunately, while the SSA/ASS standards support attached fonts, VSFilter can't read them.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL

ArabianSwan's reply was right on the mark: we are doing this SO FANS CAN ENJOY IT, making it harder for "other groups to steal it" is going against that very principle. And, as it has been pointed out, it seems rather hypocritical for anyone to claim any rights over fansubs, when you didn't even have the rights to MAKE them in the first place.

For clarification, it's not just the video/audio distribution that is a violation of copyright - the very act of publishing unofficial subtitles, even as standalone files, is against the Berne Convention.

That said, I don't think that fansubbing is unethical - unless you try to claim more rights over the fansubs than you ever had in the first place.

As for OGM, remember that OGM is a hack to have an entire AVI inside an Ogg file. I'm not sure if it handles softsubs in the Ogg or AVI part. AVI can also handle softsubs, by the way. The problem with softsubs with AVI and OGM is the same - no font attachment support. You either give the user fontpacks and make them install it or use system fonts.

Unfortunately, while the SSA/ASS standards support attached fonts, VSFilter can't read them.

But you're right, the script stealing argument is dead, let's stop that.

Softsub with attached fonts works in AVI, I have a file right here that's encoded like that. It actually plays more consistently on Windows than most .mkv and .mp4 files I know. (Of course you need to hax0r it with a shell script to play it on lunix and Mac) ^^;

-Tofu

[jfs]

Let me guess: Font attachments for softsubs in AVI: Use the classic encoded font in the ASS file? Actually, hmm... I wonder where VSFilter intercepts that, softsubs in AVI are probably streamed in a quite different way

[SeijiSensei]

I've come to think that softsubs might help me support the industry by making it possible to buy R2 DVD releases and use the softsub from a fansubbed version. Some of my favorite shows will never see an R1 release, so supporting the producers of shows like these requires either buying OSTs or buying R2 releases (or sending them a check every now and then). I haven't done this yet, but I'm thinking I might start with a couple of shows soon. Are there any obvious problems I'm missing with such a strategy? (I use mplayer or xine which make it easy to overlay a sub file.)

So if we think there's some merit to the notion that fansubbing increases visibility which leads to greater support for anime producers, softsubs seem to fit that model better than hardsubs.

[Tofusensei]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I've come to think that softsubs might help me support the industry by making it possible to buy R2 DVD releases and use the softsub from a fansubbed version. Some of my favorite shows will never see an R1 release, so supporting the producers of shows like these requires either buying OSTs or buying R2 releases (or sending them a check every now and then). I haven't done this yet, but I'm thinking I might start with a couple of shows soon. Are there any obvious problems I'm missing with such a strategy? (I use mplayer or xine which make it easy to overlay a sub file.)

So if we think there's some merit to the notion that fansubbing increases visibility which leads to greater support for anime producers, softsubs seem to fit that model better than hardsubs.

I know exactly what you mean, but I do think you're underestimating what the level of purchasing power as exercised by fansub viewers really is. We have multiple shows in the United States that were very popular on fansubs that sold less than 1000 units/DVD when they were released on r1 DVD. Fansub viewers aren't buying any DVDs these days, they certainly won't start importing r2 DVDs in any amount that isn't already in their usual +/- range. There is a serious problem in the anime world right now and it needs to right itself. This is what led to the demise of companies like Geneon, CPM, and now ADV.

Off-topic, but this is a screenshot from a notice I was putting in my fansubs back in early 2002. I wish people would have listened to me



-Tofu

[ArchMageZeratuL]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Softsub with attached fonts works in AVI, I have a file right here that's encoded like that. It actually plays more consistently on Windows than most .mkv and .mp4 files I know. (Of course you need to hax0r it with a shell script to play it on lunix and Mac) ^^;

Really? How does that work? I'd like to take a look at the file, I'm curious now.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I haven't done this yet, but I'm thinking I might start with a couple of shows soon. Are there any obvious problems I'm missing with such a strategy? (I use mplayer or xine which make it easy to overlay a sub file.)

The only "major" problem is that scripts for TV raws will not directly work on DVD raws without shifting the timing for the parts around. It will basically require retiming parts of the script.

So if we think there's some merit to the notion that fansubbing increases visibility which leads to greater support for anime producers, softsubs seem to fit that model better than hardsubs.

The number of people who will actually turn around and buy the DVD since they have the script is extremely small. Most will just download a rip when it eventually appears. I'd think an approach like We suck has where they only provide hardsubs and then will give you DVD scripts when you buy the R2s are far more conducive to this type of buying.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

Off-topic, but this is a screenshot from a notice I was putting in my fansubs back in early 2002. I wish people would have listened to me

Off-topic too, and just curious, Tofusensei.

Have YOU been buying the R1s to all those shows which you have graced with this screen?

[cyth]

@SeijiSensei: You're almost 100% guaranteed that the original subtitles won't synchronize with DVD audio, but it's very easy to shift those script segments. They usually need to be reshifted before the OP, after the OP, after the commercial break (somewhere near the middle of the episode), and after the ED. You can do this easily in Aegisub, you can also specify a delay in the DirectVobSub window during playback if you won't be bothered to pause and adjust the subtitles a few times while watching.

[Obi-Wan]

I've been fansubbing since 2002 as well, and for the past six months or so I haven't really been involved with any organized group-style fansubbing. Just mostly odd jobs and solo projects. But for a while I didn't understand why there was such a migration from hard subs to soft. I guess the reason is that people are resistant to change: We all used hardsubs for so long and when a radical change like moving from xvid/hard to h264/soft came along, not everyone boarded the ship at the same time. Now, I'm a big fan of h264 and actually prefer softsubs.

Though I'm not entirely sure why VLC hasn't died out as an acceptable program to view a softsubbed file with. The complaints about the subs looking ugly haven't changed or gone away since softsubs became the dominant format. You'd think people would catch on or something.

[martino]

Originally Posted by Obi-Wan

Though I'm not entirely sure why VLC hasn't died out as an acceptable program to view a softsubbed file with. The complaints about the subs looking ugly haven't changed or gone away since softsubs became the dominant format. You'd think people would catch on or something.

It would have died out if people wouldn't have used it. Most VLC users watching softsubbed releases, with the nice Arial font, don't even appear to be bothered by that or realize that that's not what it is supposed to look like. But oh well, it's not us that's going to get eye cancer...

[Daiz]

...Yeah, we'll get brain cancer instead when they come to complain about how the files they downloaded won't play properly in their precious VLC and how the fansubbers are obviously the ones at fault, since VLC is the end-all solution to all playback problems, no doubt about it!

[Nicholi]

It seems to me the majority of VLC users are in the "just don't realize" group. They don't know the subtitles are supposed to come with neat styles or even other fonts. So it never occurred to them to even ask anyone, "Hey are the subs supposed to be so plain like this?" Otherwise I think you'd see alot more VLC user converts. The other problem primarily is the idea that "VLC can play anything", so you have users stuck in this one player to play all ideology. Or ones that have multiple players because they think they need one for a specific filetype. Which of course could be done with a simple DirectShow player, but that would require they install the correct filters beforehand which is what the majority of them are apparently incapable of doing. Too much work when they can just use VLC, and for anything outside of softsubs I would agree (since we mostly use ffdshow anyways which is primarily libavcodec, same as what VLC is using). I rather wish the 3rd party MPlayer GUIs would get alot better because that would truly be the "one player to play all" thing to get them jazzed about with at least decent softsub support.

Well R1 DVD sales decreasing seems like an obvious thing to happen when the price of anime DVDs is rather high. The market is oversaturated with content that people don't even want to really buy now, how could you expect them to pay $20 or more for a single DVD? Also the quality of an R1 DVD compared to its R2 twin in Japan is simply horrible, though I doubt few consumers are thinking of that (I usually am). It is significantly lower quality in terms of audio/video. Also I'm not quite sure what is with current R1 licensors always releasing 6ch multichannel English dubbing when the original is only stereo. Perhaps an attempt at adding to the quality of the product, but in the end with the bastardized video by however they filter/process it it does little to enhance the quality. I think the R1 licensors should simply be making smarter choices at what to license. Because simply flooding us with random shows isn't going to do anything to increase sales.

Which of course means all the fans of niche shows lose out but they have the fansubs for a reason, amirite? Can't run a business on things that don't make money, since that is all they are interested in at the end of the day.

[danomac]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

The appeal of hardsubs for me, anyway, is that as the encoder, you know what the finished product will look like. Softsubs still have too many inconsistencies in playback across multiple platforms.

As someone who uses linux at home (Windows isn't even installed as dual-boot) I avoid softsubs all the time. Hardsubs always play properly.

Originally Posted by Nicholi

MPlayer. It wasn't created yesterday. It's been around awhile. It's had SSA/ASS support for over a year now. [snip]

Yes, MPlayer has had ass/ssa with libass for some time now, but it is far from perfect. The most typical problems I have with softsubs is timing and fonts overlapping. Overriding the font didn't solve the problem. Both are recent encodes from different groups. I rarely run into problems where MPlayer will not play something that's hardsubbed... come to think of it, there was only one in the last two years, and it was an audio sync problem.

I don't know if the groups are creating the mkv properly, but after continuous problems I just avoid softsubs. It's easier. It's frustrating when you want to watch something but the fonts overlap!

[Nicholi]

Originally Posted by danomac

Yes, MPlayer has had ass/ssa with libass for some time now, but it is far from perfect. The most typical problems I have with softsubs is timing and fonts overlapping. Overriding the font didn't solve the problem. Both are recent encodes from different groups. I rarely run into problems where MPlayer will not play something that's hardsubbed... come to think of it, there was only one in the last two years, and it was an audio sync problem.

I don't know if the groups are creating the mkv properly, but after continuous problems I just avoid softsubs. It's easier. It's frustrating when you want to watch something but the fonts overlap!

Which releases were those? So I can get them and then go ask the developer about the problems on your platform because I am guessing you did not bother to. It might be the release, but it also might be just a bug you need to report. On a platform which only gets better from user feedback you would think you might look into the problem a little more to make your applications better.