Eden of the East - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by BunnyCupCakes

So, is it usual for rapists to steal other people's stuff, especially when that said person is drunk and they just take their stuff away? Or was it only on this occassion?

Well, if someone's a criminal already, they're probably more likely to commit other crimes, and Ousugi was definitely an easy target, being dead drunk and angry, and thus probably unable to resist or perhaps even notice when his stuff gets stolen. Guy with low moral standards sees another guy who's half conscious and holding a suitcase that probably has some money and valuables in it (especially considering he just walked out of a swank restaurant). Probably figures, why not?

[izmosmolnar]

Well since none of us are rapists here (?), it's kinda hard to understand their motives . I presume he might as well took it, since why not. He isn't gonna stop him, as Oosugi is knocked out anyway. A rapist wouldn't possibly feel ashamed of taking his stuff, while he is pissed as a fart. He is probably already past the stage, where his conscience would make him feel guilty about taking innocent people's belongings.
But I find the other coincidences more suspicious, to be honest.

[~BC~]

"He is a rapist therefore he must also be a thief" seems to be what we're suppose to assume. But I'm pretty sure that type of logic wouldn't quite jive in real life .

[Jan-Poo]

Nah of course not, even a perfectly respectable man (on appearance) who hold an important position in society could be a rapist, however the guy we are talking about is probably a thug of some sort, and "rape" is only one of the many crimes he already committed.

If we take every single fact about ohsugi and the rapist switch they could make sense if taken alone. It's when you put them all together that they don't make sense anymore.

A single coincidence can happen, two coincidences is possible, three coincidence is already too much, but we have like 8 in this case.

[DragoZERO]

Hmm.. interesting episode. The end with the wings was really bad though. Even if its all illusionary, what's the point? And for the guy to be some rapist and not what's his name. Talk about a waste of Akira's time and money, lol.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A single coincidence can happen, two coincidences is possible, three coincidence is already too much, but we have like 8 in this case.

Isn't it just two? Oosugi and Diana, Diana and the "rapist" (I'm still wondering about the businessman with the umbrella on the other side of the street, and thinking there is more to learn about both him and the guy under Diana's arm). I'm not saying those two don't stretch my credulity a bit, though.

However, I want to make this point again: the events of ep1, especially the naked man with a gun and no memory at the White House, were a signal that we should regard this show not as fully realistic but as having elements of fantasy. The director was buying himself some credibility space with those, it seems to me.

[~BC~]

Let's see. Coincidences off the top of my head:

Between Oosugi and rapist:
1. Same hair color
2. Same eye color/shape
3. Both wearing suits
4. Both posting at the same board
5. Both just happening to be in the alleyway when Diana comes through

Other things:
6. Forum screenname looking like a play on Oosugi's name
7. Captive being able to expertly use Oosugi's cellphone

Some are easier to swallow than others of course (like 3 and 4 for example). 1 and 2 are iffy because of the unique hair/eye color.

Also I noticed some people seem fine with taking Kuroha at her word but I'm reluctant to think that she's always right about the people she kills. So she uses Juiz to find these people but how exactly does she go about doing that. Does she have Juiz look up records for suspected rapists and/or convicted criminals? Even if it's just the latter there is still room for human error (Juiz would only be pulling up records after all). Anyway, that's probably the other big thing that's bothering me about this episode.

However, I want to make this point again: the events of ep1, especially the naked man with a gun and no memory at the White House, were a signal that we should regard this show not as fully realistic but as having elements of fantasy. The director was buying himself some credibility space with those, it seems to me.

That'd be a bit of a cop out on Kamiyama's part though wouldn't it? Especially, since he's supposedly addressing real life issues.

[WanderingKnight]

That'd be a bit of a cop out on Kamiyama's part though wouldn't it? Especially, since he's supposedly addressing real life issues.

I'm not arguing for anyone to find the stuff Diana did believable, but really what the hell does her illusion have to do with the real life issues the show is pointing out? Seriously, I really can't see that the true problems the show is focusing on are somewhat diminished by a bit of fantasy.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Well since none of us are rapists here (?)

Of course I'm not!

All Diana needed was a man like this.

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Let's see. Coincidences off the top of my head:

Between Oosugi and rapist:
1. Same hair color
2. Same eye color/shape
3. Both wearing suits

Have you ever been to Japan?
We all kinda look the same you know.
You'd be surprised just HOW many salarymen in suits you find on the streets.
In fact, you'll find these guys that looks much like each other, in pretty much every steet.
Yes, even at night, especially when there's places to drink near that street.
(And yes, majority of us have the same hair color, same eye color, and wear suits.)

But I get what you're saying, he's an anime character, and anime characters tend to be more diverse than in reality, when it comes to hair/eye/clothes.

[Kaoru Chujo]

1 and 2: I hadn't noticed those. You're right there: brown hair and grey eyes are not the Japanese norm, lol.
3: like a huge number of other men who go to restaurants like that.
4: it's Oosugi's phone
5: that and Diana being there are what I mentioned.
6: see #4
7: expertly? or because it's somehow set that way?

That having been said, perhaps we don't differ all that much on the kidnapping episode. But my objections don't really fall under the heading of "coincidences." My problem is that it just seems like a cheat or a comedy if the kidnappee isn't Oosugi. That has been my feeling from the time the boy went missing.

For me, however, the opportunities to see relationships develop and personalities revealed, and to see that amazing bedroom scene and exit, make up for a lot.

As for whether it's a cop-out or not, you don't start an anime with a naked man having his memory erased, brandishing a gun near the White House, and getting away with superhuman speed, if you want everything to be taken in a pedestrian and realistic way. The audience should realize that. The show deals with serious issues in a fantasy way, and has from the start. That's not a cop-out, it's a style.

In the case of Diana's reasons and choices, the feminist tone makes perfect sense to me, but the details seem pretty sketchy. The details of why she's doing this, I mean. The details of how she decides who is a bad guy don't matter to me much.

Originally Posted by ~BC~

Let's see. Coincidences off the top of my head:

Between Oosugi and rapist:
1. Same hair color
2. Same eye color/shape
3. Both wearing suits
4. Both posting at the same board
5. Both just happening to be in the alleyway when Diana comes through

Other things:
6. Forum screenname looking like a play on Oosugi's name
7. Captive being able to expertly use Oosugi's cellphone

Some are easier to swallow than others of course (like 3 and 4 for example). 1 and 2 are iffy because of the unique hair/eye color.

Also I noticed some people seem fine with taking Kuroha at her word but I'm reluctant to think that she's always right about the people she kills. So she uses Juiz to find these people but how exactly does she go about doing that. Does she have Juiz look up records for suspected rapists and/or convicted criminals? Even if it's just the latter there is still room for human error (Juiz would only be pulling up records after all). Anyway, that's probably the other big thing that's bothering me about this episode.

That'd be a bit of a cop out on Kamiyama's part though wouldn't it? Especially, since he's supposedly addressing real life issues.

[Jan-Poo]

Coincidences:

1) Ohsugi being missing the whole time. Even if we assume he got assaulted, unless he died and the rapist concealed the body this is not normal.
2) The rapist and ohsugi have a pretty similar physique, very close height, very close weight (no you can't tell me that japanese are all the same in this regard too)
3) Suits identical or almost identical, and don't tell me that's normal. Kasuga said he was definitely Ohsugi after seen the suit. We have seen many other people in this anime with suits but none of them were that similar
4) The rapist knew that mobile phone well enough to be able to use it without watching it (I can't do that even with my own phone!)
5) The rapist assaulted Ohsugi the very same night he got assaulted by Diana
6) Diana "met" Ohsugi the very same night she abducted the rapist
7) the rapist casually gave hints about himself being ohsugi by taking pictures that made Kasuga thinks he was related to Higashi no Eden (i.e. the apple)
8) Akira forgot he could ask Juiz the location of ohsugi thus avoiding this whole charade.

On point number 5 and 6. These would be normal if Diana met Ohsugi after he's been assaulted. But this is not the case. During that scene Ohsugi still had his phone and bag. So I assume there was a time gap between the time Diana met ohsugi and the time she got the rapist.

The idea that the man with the umbrella was the rapist would actually make things even more preposterous. In that case we should assume that the rapist assaulted ohsugi while Diana was watching him. And even if she witnessed anything not only she let the rapist carry the stolen phone and bag to her room, she'd even have the guts to say "I wonder why the two were mixed up". Er excuse me, no this can't be true.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by aohige

You'd be surprised just HOW many salarymen in suits you find on the streets.
In fact, you'll find these guys that looks much like each other, in pretty much every steet.

Oh I know about that. That's why I said the similar suits were easy to swallow along with a rapist lurking around the same romance forum as some lovelorn salaryman.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I'm not arguing for anyone to find the stuff Diana did believable, but really what the hell does her illusion have to do with the real life issues the show is pointing out? Seriously, I really can't see that the true problems the show is focusing on are somewhat diminished by a bit of fantasy.

Not sure where you got that I was talking about Diana's illusion but okay.
All I'm saying is I don't like it when "it's fantasy" is used to explain away questionable aspects of a plot. And I'm hoping that was never Kamiyama's intent.

@ Kaoru Chujo

See, I have a problem with the "elements of fantasy" you're talking about. If we apply the fantasy aspect to all these coincidences then basically we're summing everything up as Fate. And I don't think that's really been a theme of this anime.

My problem is that it just seems like a cheat or a comedy if the kidnappee isn't Oosugi.

I agree with this and that was my other main problem with the episode. Unfortunately for me there wasn't much else in the episode to make up for this part.

[Raiga]

Oh the other hand though, wouldn't it also be a pretty contrived coincidence, if not more so, if Diana actually did happen to kidnap Ousugi? I mean, of all the guys she could have picked up, it was the guy with unrequited feelings for Saki, the girl who's tied up with Number Nine? It may well be more realistic that instead it was some rapist that nobody on the main cast has ever heard of.

In the end, it's a story, and every coincidence in a story is contrived. That is to say, in fiction, there are no coincidences. The way things happen aren't dictated by reality, they're dictated by the story the author wants to tell.

What's the likelihood that, in real life, by the end of the episode/show/book/whatever, not only is the bad guy caught, the good guys have learned a valuable lesson, all of them have resolved their personal issues, That One Couple has finally admitted their feelings for one another, and everyone is friends again? Yet that happens all the time in stories and no one complains.

I guess what I'm getting at is, there essentially always is a sort of "fate" in fictional plots, because all the events are building up towards some final goal, some plot resolution, which obviously doesn't happen in real life.

[Guardian Enzo]

I think Kamiyama-dono (may the director of the all-exalted and supremely magnificent Moribito forgive me for saying it) is getting a bit too much rope to hang himself here. Elements of fantasy are fine, but I think we're seeing some pretty lazy creative decision-making going on here. I'm all for using fantasy to illuminate reality but I don't really think the series is playing fair with the audience - a lot of things are being contrived for the convenience of moving the story forward. Frankly, he seems more interest in making cool stuff happen on screen than earning his dramatic tension honestly.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by Raiga

Oh the other hand though, wouldn't it also be a pretty contrived coincidence, if not more so, if Diana actually did happen to kidnap Ousugi? I mean, of all the guys she could have picked up, it was the guy with unrequited feelings for Saki, the girl who's tied up with Number Nine? It may well be more realistic that instead it was some rapist that nobody on the main cast has ever heard of.

In the end, it's a story, and every coincidence in a story is contrived. That is to say, in fiction, there are no coincidences. The way things happen aren't dictated by reality, they're dictated by the story the author wants to tell.

What's the likelihood that, in real life, by the end of the episode/show/book/whatever, not only is the bad guy caught, the good guys have learned a valuable lesson, all of them have resolved their personal issues, That One Couple has finally admitted their feelings for one another, and everyone is friends again? Yet that happens all the time in stories and no one complains.

I guess what I'm getting at is, there essentially always is a sort of "fate" in fictional plots, because all the events are building up towards some final goal, some plot resolution, which obviously doesn't happen in real life.

I don't know about anyone else but my main point in regards to the coincidences is that it built up suspense and anticipation and then pretty much fell flat. Anyone who's seen/read enough fiction could spot the sob story about Kuroha from a mile away. Saki finding out about Selecao was a given (all I was thinking was about time). The only thing to really anticipate was whether or not Akira would find Kuroha in time. To have a 'lol, Oosugi was never in danger' ending is just so...'bleh' to me .

[golthin]

first, people have very short memory in here.
People have already found the reasons why the guy was not oosugi. they were wearing the same suit but the rapist had a tie of one color and oosugi had another. I believe someone mentioned that the rapist was using his right hand while Oosugi was left handed.

diana was catched by a helicopter which you can see flying above the hotel.


Now something that nobody has thought about. akira is a dense and clueless punk, he doesn't seem to care about involving Saki with him considering how dangerous his situation is. Really, if I was in such kind of game, i will try to stay away from people for two reasons.

1. Not to get other innocent people involved (he was already lucky once that Kendo didn't kill Saki in the theater because it would have cost him money).

2.considering that you will be killed once you use all your money, you will make people that know you suffer once you disappear.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by golthin

Now something that nobody has thought about. akira is a dense and clueless punk, he doesn't seem to care about involving Saki with him considering how dangerous his situation is. Really, if I was in such kind of game, i will try to stay away from people for two reasons.

1. Not to get other innocent people involved (he was already lucky once that Kendo didn't kill Saki in the theater because it would have cost him money).

2.considering that you will be killed once you use all your money, you will make people that know you suffer once you disappear.

1. Well yeah but at the time Akira didn't know it was a dangeruous game he was playing.

2. Well he has to get to know Eden of the East members if he is to save Japan. He was still smart enough to not tell Saki where he was going in Ep. 7so she didn't get hurt. He's still keeping her at a distance.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by golthin

first, people have very short memory in here.
People have already found the reasons why the guy was not oosugi. they were wearing the same suit but the rapist had a tie of one color and oosugi had another. I believe someone mentioned that the rapist was using his right hand while Oosugi was left handed.

Hope you are not talking to me, read my first post in this thread if that's the case. The reason I and many others still didn't think it was proof enough that man wasn't ohsugi is that it was easier to think ohsugi was ambidextrous and necktie color was an error (or light effect) than accepting all the other coincidences. And I'm not saying this latter theory actually made sense, but the other is even worse imho.

Oh the other hand though, wouldn't it also be a pretty contrived coincidence, if not more so, if Diana actually did happen to kidnap Ousugi? I mean, of all the guys she could have picked up, it was the guy with unrequited feelings for Saki, the girl who's tied up with Number Nine? It may well be more realistic that instead it was some rapist that nobody on the main cast has ever heard of.

It would be still be a coincidence but in that case there would be less coincidences than with the actual situation. As I said before is not one, two even three coincidences that bother me, those are normal in fictions, but it's when they are too many that my suspension of disbelief suffers.
Now I must add that it's not sure that all the coincidences that I'm seeing right now are exactly coincidences. We still don't know what happened to ohsugi and why his phone and bag were in that room. If a logic explanation is shown then everything would change. Until then we can only speculate.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I have to admit that as much as I am enjoying this show, I haven't previously been a big Kamiyama fan. I have so far only been able to watch a bit of GITS:SAC, and I felt Seirei was about twice as long as it needed to be. Maybe he's starting to flounder a bit here -- although I find the floundering fairly stellar still, myself.

I just rewatched the scene we discussed earlier of the whole gang in Akira's apartment looking at the posted photos. Kasuga says that Oosugi has had a hole in his heart for a long time: this means to me that Saki has previously told him he wasn't for her. When Kasuga talks about the wind finally blowing through that hole, Saki bows her head, realizing that her rejection keeps hurting him.

When Akira asks who Oosugi is, Saki is surprised and chagrined, here at the intersection between her two mutually exclusive worlds, that she never told him; the guys resent his not knowing, since they sympathize more with their rejected friend than with the prince; and Onee (the older woman) is shocked that Saki hasn't told him. Maybe it reveals to her that Saki has so little concern for Oosugi and so much for Akira, or else that she is not as close to Akira as she seems. Not sure.

Then when Kasuga talks about their dinner, Saki realizes (and says so) that it might be the dinner she didn't show up for. When he confirms that, Saki bows her head and sighs, feeling either or both of her familiar "there he goes again" with Oosugi, and her familiar "what a sorry excuse for a human being I am"; Onee bashes Kasuga for so insensitively making Saki feel bad. Micchon is still quite placid: she cares much more about her technology than for any mere human feelings, lol.

Since a lot of this is nonverbal communication, we each may read different things into it. This is what I read.

By the way, I really love the image of the water-filled crater and ruins just after that, in the moonlight, as Akira is riding by. I can really feel the night, and something magical from the moonlight, and even a hint of moist air.

[Haak]

You're totally right. I also got exactly that watching it the first time. Except the Micchon bit. Lol.