(CR) Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinju

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by karice67

As for the debate about whether Kiku loves Sukeroku romantically...personally, I have no inclination to apply current understandings of concepts like 'romance' and 'BL' to their relationship. Even if it's difficult or even impossible, rather than analysing this show through the lens of my own world, I want to look at these characters and the relationships they have with each other largely in their terms.

You could look at the relationship between Kiku and Sukeroku another way, not that they have a romantic attraction but rather that they don't. If Kiku is aromantic but still feels some degree of heterosexual attraction, then Sukeroku becomes "safe." He can be more relaxed around Sukeroku and even share certain types of intimacy (cleaning his ears, letting him sleep in his lap) because he knows things won't go any further. With Miyo he has to worry about crossing a line, and Miyo's behavior is telling them they're getting close to that line. But with Sukeroku there is no line to worry about.

It's just an alternate interpretation. I have no idea if it's right.

[Ryuuoh DeltaPlus]

*sigh*

Why can't we have shows when two males can be very close friends without it turning into yaoi bait anymore....

[orion]

Originally Posted by Ryuuoh DeltaPlus

*sigh*

Why can't we have shows when two males can be very close friends without it turning into yaoi bait anymore....

Cleaning of the ears with head on lap just "crosses the line" imo for female viewers. Sukeroku is hetero. Kiku prob is aromatic or could be portrayed as bi depending on your goggles.

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by Ryuuoh DeltaPlus

Why can't we have shows when two males can be very close friends without it turning into yaoi bait anymore....

Because Hollywood says there's no such thing as platonic relationships. Same reason why two people of the opposite sex can't go anywhere by themselves without people raising an eyebrow. It's ingrained into our society.

I had a friend in undergrad who moved here from China to live with her aunt. Once she tried to hold hands with her aunt while going shopping but was surprised when her aunt refused on the grounds that people would misread the situation. Said friend said she didn't realize that people here in the States are so homophobic to the point of paranoia.

That said, this is anime. Let people see what they want to see. Whether people think it's subtext or platonic, it's not like it's hurting anyone. If anything, it's the guys who are constantly complaining about it who are being annoying, ironically enough.

[Stark700]

Episode 8:

Damn...I feel bad for Miyokichi this episode. She's gone through relationships after relationships and Kiku was someone that she really loved. But now, they really have broken up. It didn't surprise me much that Kiku did break up with her though. And it was a weird timing for him to see Miyokichi in that position.

Kiku and Hatsutaro's farewell also stood out to me this episode but at least they left on good terms. Not sure why but I found that embrace to be funny.

[orion]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

I had a friend in undergrad who moved here from China to live with her aunt. Once she tried to hold hands with her aunt while going shopping but was surprised when her aunt refused on the grounds that people would misread the situation. Said friend said she didn't realize that people here in the States are so homophobic to the point of paranoia.

Well... people might think that only 2 situations exist where 2 adults are going to be holding hands...

a. They're in a relationship.
b. The older person is senile or has a disability that requires her to be led around.

Situation "b" is the worse one for that aunt.

[Kanon]

Kiku really was in love with Miyukichi, after all, it's just that his career is a lot more important to him than love. Hopefully, that should stop all that BL talk. Sukeroku and Kiku are just bros.

The origin story of the Sukeroku name was interesting. Shin had a deep reason for choosing that name.

[revive4563]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Hopefully, that should stop all that BL talk. Sukeroku and Kiku are just bros.

Yeah, I'm really glad that my expectation was wrong. Clearly this episode is one of the best.
After all, this is the problem of very internal, subjective, vague (and interesting). So it can't be helped though...
As always Kiku is a waifu of Sukeroku but maybe this story has a plenty general acceptance factors in Japan.
Possibly this can become Nodame Cantabile of rakugo. I mean, live action drama of evening.

Though Japanese live action showbiz is rotten because they are functioning by old star system. But anyway it's more major.

[BloodyKitty]

I am a casual female viewer, and sometimes I can dabble in a few BL fandoms quite a bit, but when some people say that Kikuhiko "must be gay because Kikuhiko is so cold towards women" or his relationship with Sukeroku "must be BL undertoned because the mangaka only drew BL besides this series", I honestly feel surprised because when watching the show blind to other info and people's comments I honestly didn't see anything like that.

If anything even before ep 8 Kikuhiko showed really strong tendency to be asexual/ aromantic. He did have romantic attractions to some extent with the opposite gender, but he didn't show any sexual desires and now even admitted he has no desire to live a lifetime with a partner. Sukeroku is his fellow disciple towards his Master, a Rakugo performer he subtly admires and respects, a lifelong friend, and a family to him. Kikuhiko and Sukeroku's relationship, their chatters, bickering, sharing apartment, hugging, etc. are still very much in the realm of people who are as close as family to each other, and at the same time, I didn't see any sexual or romantic notions in those acts, just platonic notions betweens bros.

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Because Hollywood says there's no such thing as platonic relationships. Same reason why two people of the opposite sex can't go anywhere by themselves without people raising an eyebrow. It's ingrained into our society.

I had a friend in undergrad who moved here from China to live with her aunt. Once she tried to hold hands with her aunt while going shopping but was surprised when her aunt refused on the grounds that people would misread the situation. Said friend said she didn't realize that people here in the States are so homophobic to the point of paranoia.

So there are really things like that over there? I live in a country in South East Asia and see no problem with hand holding between same sex people, guess the cultural difference is strong here. The reactions to the show in this forum is more understandable now.

[Benigmatica]

Episode 8:
Seeing Sukeroku's fan and how he got it was so touching. But then again, there's Miyokichi as I don't want her being abandoned by someone like Kikuhiko.

On the other hand, while both Kiku-san and Sukeroku are considered for the shin'uchi promotion, seems that the elders wanted the former over the latter as Kikuhiko is very respectful towards his masters unlike Sukeroku.

Then again, the elders doesn't like changes in rakugo while Sukeroku wanted to perform rakugo that's fitting with the current audience taste at that time.

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Kiku really was in love with Miyukichi, after all, it's just that his career is a lot more important to him than love.

It's not quite that straightforward. Remember that their Master told him to marry a "respectable" woman and start a family, and he didn't want to do that. He loves Miyo, but he's simply not built for that kind of relationship. It's actually a good thing for Miyo in the long run that he's recognized it and accepted it about himself rather than trying to make a relationship work and failing miserably.

Originally Posted by BloodyKitty

So there are really things like that over there? I live in a country in South East Asia and see no problem with hand holding between same sex people, guess the cultural difference is strong here. The reactions to the show in this forum is more understandable now.

Heh, you should check out the Hibike! Euphonium thread sometime. Or maybe you shouldn't.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Ryuuoh DeltaPlus

*sigh*

Why can't we have shows when two males can be very close friends without it turning into yaoi bait anymore....

THIS.

I mean, I like yaoi ships too, but this show really isn't like that.


I wonder when this show will go back to Yotaru/Old Kiku? Not too many episodes left.

Spoiler:

I'm guessing Miyo kills herself at some point.

[BloodyKitty]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

I wonder when this show will go back to Yotaru/Old Kiku? Not too many episodes left.

I think until the last episode tbh. It's clear at this point that the structure of this show is showing what happen in the future time with Yotarou/ Konatsu/ Old Kikuhiko in the first episode, then telling the actual story of Kikuhiko's life, his internal struggles, his Rakugo career, his relationships and events that lead back to the situation in the first episode.

[Last Sinner]

There was a point a few episodes ago that I was a little irked that the characters we saw in Episode 1 weren't getting more of a look in and that things weren't progressing as much as they should.

After everything that happened in Episodes 7 and 8, I don't feel that way now. It is clear that the focus is what happened between Kiku, Sukeroku and Miyokichi and what has transpired + what seems inevitable will be more than enough to be fulfilling.

Music in this title is quite nice. Just really fits in with the whole package.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by orion

Kiku prob is aromatic

So does that mean he smells nice or something ?

(yeah, I got you meant "aromantic", just pointing the hilarious typo out)

[gdpetti]

It does seem that first impression would be correct if she hooks up with the other guy, gets pregnant, dies in some way or runs away from the baby and him.... he later dies and gives it to the mc to look after.
Has anyone seen those extended OVAs on dvd? No english sub it seems.
[*SNIP*]

[Nachtwandler]

Originally Posted by gdpetti

It does seem that first impression would be correct if she hooks up with the other guy, gets pregnant, dies in some way or runs away from the baby and him.... he later dies and gives it to the mc to look after.
Has anyone seen those extended OVAs on dvd? No english sub it seems.
[*SNIP*]

They don't have much explanation. We'll see it later. OVAs just have expanded performances from ep. 1 and some additional scenes but they are not related to the past.

BTW. Probably Russian subs will come faster than English on the OVAs. And of decent quality unlike most of the cases.

[Stark700]

Episode 9:

Wow. Just wow.

That was a very powerful emotional filled episode. I don't even know where to begin but it seems like the three main leads - Kiku, Miyokichi, and Sukeroku really has a much more complex relationship now. I think Kiku made a mistake though about Miyokichi. He should of gave her a chance. As for Sukeroku, he better not give up on rakugo. It's in his blood and veins to perform.

Great episode overall with very powerful and real dialogues. Some of Miyokichi's conversation with Kiku is quite memorable especially the part about "revenge".

[Jaden]

There's a beautiful irony in how Kiku tells Miyo she needs to be able to live on her own...and then desperately clings on to Sukeroku.

Of course the relationships are different, but whatever the case, it is difficult to be alone.

[Dop]

That scene of Miyokichi standing in the window with the wind blowing her clothes and the cherry blossom, saying she was going to come back to haunt Kiko, was chilling considering we know where the story's going...
Fantastic episode.