2008-03-09, 12:32 | Link #841 | |||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Also, with the use of mental scopes, you can already eliminate one of the advantages of a rifle, leaving you with the stock. Quote:
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2008-03-09, 12:47 | Link #842 | ||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Good night. |
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2008-03-09, 13:24 | Link #843 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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While this is very interesting, can we get back to the point?
Is there any indication of magical defense construction that can make conventional weapons ineffective in Nanoha? Tshouryuu thinks there has to be in order for the ban to be practical.? I hadn't thought of that while we were discussing the conditions that could make the ban possible. |
2008-03-09, 14:45 | Link #844 | |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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Something I suggested to go with shour's comments, but I don't think made it into the conversation as a whole, was that jacket defense fields and barriers reacted smartly.
I'm thinking in terms of experimental Carbon Ballistic Cloth or some kind of carbon buckyball ballistic gel (which I can't find anywhere, but a conversation I had with someone.) I think it's the carbon buckyball gel I'm thinking of. Anyway, normally it's gel-like and sealed in packets. ***Pause I found the post... it was on spacebattles... and it was crystle gel lattice suspended in a liquid. Quote:
At this point it becomes rigid to prevent impact directly to the wearer as much as possible. Smart-Jacket barrier jacket. The jacket iself could even be made of carbon nanotube-like materials in the fabric to further increase the effect. |
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2008-03-09, 14:58 | Link #845 | ||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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For example, in A's 4, we see Chrono firing his Stinger Blade Execution Shift, and the projectiles move at a slow pace. As soon as Zafira raises his shield those very same projectiles suddenly hit the shield with what in anime standards is bullet speed. Did they accelerate to that speed in 1 second? No, they always were that fast, the animation was simply slowed for effect. Quote:
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2008-03-09, 15:10 | Link #846 |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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I wouldn't say 'unscratched'. Jacket or no, she was down long enough that Yuuno managed to hop the distance to check on her. But still, surviving impact through five layers of Steel Reinforced Concrete in an office building is on the order of magnitude of a bunker buster bomb.
What about an explosive reactive effect? I can see that blasting the concrete... The other problem I'm still concerned about myself is accelleration. The same scene she goes through all that concrete is one where Signum struck we with enough force to go from 0 relative, to enough speed to cross the office building's height in a second, back down to 0 after impact. Internal organs turn to mush there when the outside of the body tries to accellerate faster than maybe fifteen Gs. Conversation with shour suggested some kind of G suppression,diffusion, or magical inertial damping. But if that were perfect, it would be better to have her BOUNCE off the building, unless it fails under uncontrolled circumstances. |
2008-03-09, 15:18 | Link #847 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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With unscratched I meant 'no apparent injury' heck, it doesn't even seem to limit her movements after she dusted herself of and went back into the fray. Sure getting knocked through that building rattled her up, jacket or no, but with that kind of force force any normal person would have gone splat against the roof.
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2008-03-09, 19:15 | Link #850 | |||||||
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Technically, when you claim a compression, you are actually throwing a small piece of evidence away. Thus, your theory will automatically be inferior to any theory that keeps it. Be extra careful when the conclusion gained by including time compression just happens to be what you wish. Quote:
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Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-09 at 20:37. |
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2008-03-09, 20:08 | Link #851 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm willing to grant the devices a hell of a lot of computing power. We have at least some idea of how hard it is to come up with artificial intelligence. We're granting that the devices are at least proto-sentient, and that they're actual AIs (and not, by contrast, trapped souls... except maybe Bardiche? That's unclear.) If the devices have the computing power to run their own personalities, and not -only- their own personalities but also other things as well, then they've got enough excess to do anything we ourselves find reasonable.
Calculating ballistic trajectories is -really easy- for a computer. (It's what they were built for!) Assuming that the device can see the projectile, it can figure out where it's headed, and evade/prompt the user to evade, or get ready to get smacked. On the other hand, the device can't automatically erect a magical barrier instantly - the barrier jacket has to actually take the hit. I don't like the "slow shields" / Dune theory. For one thing, in Dune it strongly affects how they engage each other in hand-to-hand combat, whereas in Nanoha, they emphatically don't go for slow counters; Signum and Vita's fighting styles are more oriented towards overwhelming the enemy's defense, not sneaking through it. Crucially, though, nobody really takes pot-shots at any of the characters with what we'd consider to be normal weapons, so it's tough to say. You'd THINK that it'd be easier to protect against a .44 magnum than a Starlight Breaker, right? But we don't actually know that, and "can protect you against a big magical blast" isn't necessarily the same as "can protect you from a lil' piece of metal moving really quickly". As far as the reasoning behind the ban, the major objection presented in the show is that non-magical weapons can get out of hand, destroy whole cities, yadda yadda. Makes me feel that it's more of a cultural choice than something based on hard reason - they didn't ban pistols and nukes in the same sweep because they couldn't tell the difference, but because that difference didn't -matter- to them. Maybe they encountered a technology-heavy opponent in the past or something? Or had a civil war where there were nukes tossed around? (Now -that- would explain why there's so many bloody ruins!) At the same time, it's interesting that Jail didn't resort to conventional weaponry either. The law isn't a problem to him, using banned technologies isn't a problem to him. That suggests that either he's just obsessed with his cyborg systems (plausible), or that they're not that effective in the face of even meager magical opposition. Specifically, it's interesting that he didn't mount a conventional weapon on the gadgets, given their AMF properties! (One of them did have rockets...) |
2008-03-09, 23:14 | Link #853 |
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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Just a shot from the hip: In terms of what owns what, Bullets > Magic Barrier > Missiles? That way, a mage just has to have barriers to tank the missiles and dodge the bullets.
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2008-03-09, 23:57 | Link #855 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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One important difference between Nanohaverse magical attacks and conventional weapons is that the former is self-sustaining. As long as the mage is fit, she can continue to launch attacks with the magic from her Linker Core. Conventional weapons do not exist in isolation and more importantly, come in finite quantities. You can only carry a limited ammount of bullets, missles, explosives, etc into battle. Once they're expended, you need to rearm. Manufacturing that ammo - alone! - requires massive industrial resources. Jail would have needed another factory just to build bullets if his drones use projectile guns. I think it would have increased the resource requirements for his operations by one third. It would also increase the size of his "cannon fodder" drones. If they had to carry bullets, the Type-1s would have been the same size as the Type-3s. Maybe he figured the performance of missles was worth the effort to build them, but bullets in the quantities needed were too much. |
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2008-03-10, 00:48 | Link #856 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Frankly, if I were some TSAB Battalion Commander tasked with taking out a bunch of conventional weapon wielding freaks, I'll request something a little tougher than the soft, fluffy BJs that seem to be the norm. Pseudomatter armor plate will work better - basically hard and tough. You use hard plate to stop penetrations and add the BJ's buffering effect and we can start doing something, at least against light weapons. After that, it is a matter of organization. Given a simple linear situation, the battalion is to be organized into the following components: 1st Echelon = the best shielders 2nd Echelon "Tail" = healers; I might need lots of them. Elite mages (if I have any). After teleporting as close as possible towards the enemy, I'll put my 1st echelon into a shallow box formation. Their task is to erect a shield wall and cover my 2nd echelon. Elite mages are to fire suppression at the enemy with area fires (read: randomly lobbing rounds). When you are badly outranged, suppression is your best friend. They should really be using natural cover too, but closure now is the other best friend, before my elites run out of energy to fire suppressive fire. If I don't have elites then the formation is still the same. The 1st echelon has to last until we get to oh, say 50m. The 2nd echelon advances under the cover of the lead echelon. Forget overwatch unless I have a few snipers (with rifle-shaped devices with stocks) in my team - it'll slow down my SOA and overwatch is nearly useless if the overwatching units cannot engage the enemy effectively. At 50m, the line is to assault, and the support fire lifted. If there are no second lines that have to be suppressed, the elite mages are to advance to act as cavalry. Whether they are to come in close to fire, or outflank the enemy, or otherwise depends on my estimate of the situation. The 2nd echelon attacks the enemy in pairs, so that one is always shielding, until the range gets into point blank. The healers come and heal the corpses. By doing this, I should be able to attack a light weapon armed conventional line without losing my whole battalion. After this, I start writing another futile paper to TSAB higher-ups: "The Value of Magi-mech support on the battlefield...", followed by letters to the parents of the fallen... Quote:
NOTE: For the rest of you, wait. I actually have a busy workday today and so can't spend nearly as much time sneaking off replies to you. |
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2008-03-10, 01:24 | Link #857 | |
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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2008-03-10, 02:47 | Link #859 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I want to remind everyone of something: when I theorised that the Fields don't work on slower attacks, i'm referring to "slower than rifle rounds." Vita and Signum as fast attackers, but are still slower than rifle rounds.
Unless y'all now wanna start arguing mages are faster... Fact is, I think it's probably the invisible barrier that absorbs the brunt of the attack and the field which slows it down. Refer to StrikerS Episode 4 when Erio scratches Nanoha's BJ.
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2008-03-10, 03:02 | Link #860 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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By the way, even granting it'll harden, its ability to "defend more effectively" as KE goes up (tsoushurryu's stipulation) will only apply if it is tougher than the projectile - the KE goes into deforming and destroying the round itself. So, granting that it can toughen itself up enough to gain a strength advantage over a Terran bullet, it can indeed be "bulletproof" and thus save Mid mages from the embarassing fate of being crunched by a non-mage power who hasn't even really mastered spaceflight beyond the orbit. However, it won't grant it much protection against their own ammunition. Whatever techniques are used to toughen up the suit in principle can be applied to projectiles as well, and not having to compromise b/w the soft and hard forms, it'll be tougher and thus the suit itself does most of the deforming, with deformation generally increasing with KE. Now that I've played this little game, I'll point out again that this is an example of Counter-Induction, and it is a game of unfalsifiable endless speculation, with its only justification being someone's concept that BJs must have this functionality. At least Keroko tried Induction... |
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