Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Brother Coa]

Sometimes I wonder if I am the only one on the planet who liked F/SN anime from 2006. -_-

True, it is nothing spectacular but then again it is not bad as people are bashing it - haters goon hate in the end. Fate route is not bad at all ( especially after Realta Nua version ), it is in my opinion most realistic of all routes. And has definitely the best ending in VN with last episode. UBW was also good, and I am really happy it got anime. HF on the other hand has VERY questionable morality message and some quite disgusting scenes, not to mention some illogical moments. Well I guess getting a movie is better than nothing in the end.

UBW movie was on the other hand true disaster, in anime story is everything and even with the all the cool animations they did ruined the experience for everyone by butchering the story.

[ShadowSamurai365]

Originally Posted by Mcfart

Yup, to reiterate, UBW is the best route (imo, I didn't like HF as much but it did have a pretty disgusting moment). Also the reason why certain characters get less screentime in Fate is because their storylines are being saved for UBW/HF. Particularly Archer's. That offscreen Berserker fight was supposed to make you hyped about learning about him.

Also I've yet to re read the Fate route in Realta Nua, but I HATED IT in the original 2004 VN. It was so chauvinist and sexist. Saber's basically a magical girl while Shirou's just some dude yet he says "step aside woman and let the man fight". It was just retarded.

That was also one (if not the most)of the things that irked me throughout the "Fate" route (I've only watched the walkthroughs). I mean, I'm ok with treating women with manners/respect. But bringing/saying that kind of stuff to a person who is a legendary (and capable) warrior, along with saving (and fighting against) you from someone who was going to kill you a second time, doesn't exactly help your case.

[Brother Coa]

It can't be helped, it's Shirou. His nature is to overprotect even those who don't really need it. Thank God Emperor that was resolved at the end of every route.

OTOH, if Saber was dressed as British SAS he would still tell her not to fight

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

It can't be helped, it's Shirou. His nature is to overprotect even those who don't really need it. Thank God Emperor that was resolved at the end of every route.

OTOH, if Saber was dressed as British SAS he would still tell her not to fight

Only in Fate route though. He seemed totally fine with it in both UBW and HF, as he accepted both his and Saber's role in this war right after the first church scene, in these 2 routes.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Only in Fate route though. He seemed totally fine with it in both UBW and HF, as he accepted both his and Saber's role in this war right after the first church scene, in these 2 routes.

Yeah Saber gets injured in both the Fate and HF routes yet he only cares in the Fate route lol.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

HF on the other hand has VERY questionable morality message and some quite disgusting scenes, not to mention some illogical moments. Well I guess getting a movie is better than nothing in the end.

No, HF does not have a "questionable morality message". Murdering innocent people in cold blood is not OK. As for "disgusting scenes", what are you referring to? Sakura's abuse is only really mentioned, not shown.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Only in Fate route though. He seemed totally fine with it in both UBW and HF, as he accepted both his and Saber's role in this war right after the first church scene, in these 2 routes.

Definitely. I remember being shocked by how different Shirou was when I entered UBW and got reminded by it yesterday when I finished Fate again and entered UBW.
Ironically, for those same reasons I prefer Shirou x Saber in UBW than Shirou x Saber in Fate XD (I mean... "I don't want the Holy Grail, but you do so I will fight so you can get what you wish " Seriously, that's more romantic than anything he has said to Saber in Fate XD)

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, HF does not have a "questionable morality message". Murdering innocent people in cold blood is not OK. As for "disgusting scenes", what are you referring to? Sakura's abuse is only really mentioned, not shown.

To them, their "questionable morality message" is Shirou's decision to save 1 while risking many more.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

To them, their "questionable morality message" is Shirou's decision to save 1 while risking many more.

Yeah, and I'd consider telling someone to murder innocent people in cold blood like MoS Shirou does a "questionable morality message", so....

Plus, in any case, HF does not make a judgement on the morality of Shirou's actions (and, in so far as it does, it seems to lean slightly towards the idea that MoS Shirou is more morally right), it simply shows the blindingly obvious fact that following that path is going to result in you being seriously unhappy, that it is human nature to value those you care for more than anyone else and that the only way to avoid that is to not care for anyone.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

Definitely. I remember being shocked by how different Shirou was when I entered UBW and got reminded by it yesterday when I finished Fate again and entered UBW.
Ironically, for those same reasons I prefer Shirou x Saber in UBW than Shirou x Saber in Fate XD (I mean... "I don't want the Holy Grail, but you do so I will fight so you can get what you wish " Seriously, that's more romantic than anything he has said to Saber in Fate XD)

Yeah Fate Shirou was weird lol. It was an anomaly as his behavior totally differently there. Even in UBW he let his love interest fight without issue (Rin), yet no not in Fate! Saber was too supple to fight! Let Shirou show off his manliness and do all the fighting!

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, HF does not have a "questionable morality message".

Not at all.... choosing to save one individual over all others is not questionable at all...
Let's not pretend we don't know that here shall we? That's pretty much the entire thing of HF - not giving a damn about saving people because the only thing that matters is your loved one.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Not at all.... choosing to save one individual over all others is not questionable at all...
Let's not pretend we don't know that here shall we? That's pretty much the entire thing of HF - not giving a damn about saving people because the only thing that matters is your loved one.

That's a very human trait though. Humans are naturally selfish beings. Shirou has been lacking in the humanity department in his desire to be a hero of justice. So doing this makes him once again seem more human again. Sakura is innocent as well. She has been used and toyed with since she was a child. She has no control over AM. Why shouldn't she be given a chance to be saved? I bet you too would cower away if the option to kill your loved one to save the world, even if said loved one was innocent, was given to you. I would make the same choice as Shirou.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Not at all.... choosing to save one individual over all others is not questionable at all...
Let's not pretend we don't know that here shall we? That's pretty much the entire thing of HF - not giving a damn about saving people because the only thing that matters is your loved one.

Remember F/0? There is one ship with 300 people and one with 200 people. Both are in danger of being destroyed. You can only save one, but you are currently on the one with 200 people. When you try to get to the ship with 300 people, the 200 people try to stop you and what do you do? Right, you actively kill all 200 people to get to the ship with 300 people. Then after you succecfully saved the ship with 300 people, the people for some reson split up on two smaller ships that contain 200 and 100 people each, by coincidence you are on the ship with 100 people and you try to get to the other one, but of course the 100 people don't want to die and try to stop you again, so you repeat the same thing and kill all of them to save the 200 others. End result? You saved 200 people, while having murdered 300 people for "not obediently dying". So you want to say that THIS is not questionable?

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

I bet you too would cower away if the option to kill your loved one to save the world, even if said loved one was innocent, was given to you. I would make the same choice as Shirou.

Trust me I would not, I was raised to believe that needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - even when your loved ones and family are in question.
So if I had to choose to kill my child or 200 totally random strangers I would kill my child. Call it cruel but that's the right thing to do in the end. Something that Shirou failed hard in HF ( except MoS version where he is awesome t oa degree ).

Originally Posted by GreyZone

*snip

Well Kiritsugu didn't actually killed them, they all appeared dead before him with Grail telling him that he killed them ( when it was the Grail that made that scenario ). That is not questionable because you need to see bigger picture. For example Americans nuked Japan, killing almost 500.000 people. But in doing so they saved countless million in future generations. Sometimes you just need to do the hard thing and accept the statistic data and logical consumption.

Take for example what happened later in F/Z - Grail offered Kiritsugu a choice - live with his daughter and wife and having the rest of Mankind gone. Kiritsugu there made the right choice even if he had to brutally kill his family and betray his loyal servant. If that was HF Shirou he would choose Iri and Ilya without hesitation and let the Mankind gone extinct for his own selfish desires.

That's why I can never accept HF as the 'right choice path', and I really wish Sakura got better route and better role than what they gave her.

[GDB]

...You realize that by saving Sakura, he saves just as many people as he'd have saved if he killed her at the same time? It's only the people that'd die between when he's first given the choice and when he finally saves her that are on the scale.

And if I recall (been a while since I played the route), the deaths during that time are from the very end of night 9 to day 16, so one week, which I don't recall really being that many people. Most of those she ate were early on before she really started gobbling up Servants, weren't they?

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by GDB

...You realize that by saving Sakura, he saves just as many people as he'd have saved if he killed her at the same time? It's only the people that'd die between when he's first given the choice and when he finally saves her that are on the scale.

And if I recall (been a while since I played the route), the deaths during that time are from the very end of night 9 to day 16, so one week, which I don't recall really being that many people. Most of those she ate were early on before she really started gobbling up Servants, weren't they?

Yeah, it's the same as what happened to Archer. He killed the few to save the many. Then he continued to have to kill more and more until the number dead became greater than those he saved. It's just an endless spiral that caused him to become spiteful and hating himself for it.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Yeah, it's the same as what happened to Archer. He killed the few to save the many. Then he continued to have to kill more and more until the number dead became greater than those he saved. It's just an endless spiral that caused him to become spiteful and hating himself for it.

Oo, so in other words, Archer is the HF Shirou?

[GDB]

...No, HF Shirou is the furthest from becoming Archer out of the three Shirou's we've seen.

I'm not sure why cyberdemon quoted me when saying that either, since it really didn't seem to have any contextual connection to what I said. It seemed more of a response to what Coa was saying.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by Mcfart

Oo, so in other words, Archer is the HF Shirou?

IIRC, when you get all the endings and Fuji-nee and Ilya (representing the authors) give trivia, I think they mentioned that Fate Shirou has the largest chance of becoming Archer (albeit still quite small) while HF one has the lowest (near to null).
HF Shirou lacks the ideals that would put him on Archer's path in the first place.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

IIRC, when you get all the endings and Fuji-nee and Ilya (representing the authors) give trivia, I think they mentioned that Fate Shirou has the largest chance of becoming Archer (albeit still quite small) while HF one has the lowest (near to null).
HF Shirou lacks the ideals that would put him on Archer's path in the first place.

I always assumed Archer was a Shirou (likely similar to UBW Shirou who tries to save everyone)who got a 'bad end' (didn't get a girl), even though Rin saved his life from Lancer's attack. Cuz he implies that Rin will prevent Shirou from becoming a heroic spirit.


But then I read what someone else said and was like "WAAAAAAAAAAT"

I haven't read the Fate route in a while, but wasen't Shirou protecting Saber because he had a boner for her, not because he wanted to be a superhero (although that may be part of the reason)?