Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

fixed.

So there are 2 (3 if you count the "Do it" choice that is available only after reached true ending once) scenarios for normal ending?

1 is when Illya affection points are too low, she does not come to help and Shirou automatically destroys the GG.

2 is when "Limit burst" happens and Shirou has not enough time left and has to destroy it immidietly, not even giving Illya the chance to take over... does that skip the Kirei fight? Or not?

Is this more or less correct?

Yes, I forgot a word, haha.

1. Correct.

2. It skips the Kirei fight. You immediately jump to the Normal End, after Rider leaves.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Yes, I forgot a word, haha.

1. Correct.

2. It skips the Kirei fight. You immediately jump to the Normal End, after Rider leaves.

How does that even work? Does he project Excalibur and just blast through Kirei with it? Or does Kirei not even appear at all? If it's the latter... then it makes no sense...

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

How does that even work? Does he project Excalibur and just blast through Kirei with it? Or does Kirei not even appear at all? If it's the latter... then it makes no sense...

I thought even Archer couldn't do excaliblast. Some thing in the side material or Wiki about him bluffing. But then again, I'm not sure. -_-' About the latter, Dark Sakura could have killed him.

Originally Posted by GDB

You can choose to just not respond as well. You can't pin the blame on someone else for responding and keeping it going when you do the same thing right back at them.

I mean, if Cherry Lover decides to reply. I don't see a point in continuing the argument and will therefore stop. I'm not blaming anyone else for responding. I think you've misunderstood what I meant.

@Cyberdemon

I'm not saying your opinions are wrong. I'm just showing mine. In the post I said: other people's opinion. Which means that's what they think, and I agree. I didn't say you were wrong. And I just went ranting cos although you say you like Saber, you put her down alot. I kinda do the same with Sakura but that was because I hated her chara till I eventually started liking her so to no hate a character that I know is probably interesting

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

How does that even work? Does he project Excalibur and just blast through Kirei with it? Or does Kirei not even appear at all? If it's the latter... then it makes no sense...

It's more or less Shirou ignoring Kirei, if you want to see it like that. Actually, that's kinda funny, if you think about it.

Kirei: So now we meet, Emiya Shirou. I will-
*Shirou projects beam sword and destroys the Greater Grail*
Kirei: Hey, wait---!

@mirakura: I hope you don't want to start a "Did Shirou project Excalibur or not" discussion.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

It's more or less Shirou ignoring Kirei, if you want to see it like that. Actually, that's kinda funny, if you think about it.

Kirei: So now we meet, Emiya Shirou. I will-
*Shirou projects beam sword and destroys the Greater Grail*
Kirei: Hey, wait---!

@mirakura: I hope you don't want to start a "Did Shirou project Excalibur or not" discussion.

Don't worry, I don't care either way I don't even want to try to remember. I told you, I already knew the info from HF before reading it, I most likely skipped that part :3

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Heh, Cherry Lover can reply again but I don't see any point in continuing this. I thought it finished, then we began the pairings, then back to this lol. Triangle argument!

No, nor do I, which is why I haven't replied to your last post. You were literally just repeating the same things you said in the previous post....

Originally Posted by GreyZone

OK, then let's switch topics.

I got a question: I only read it from a route guide, but since I am not at my PC which has F/sn on it, I cannot read it myself: What happens in the fight against Saber Alter, when you make the choice of "use another projection"? (just the fight, how the normal ending unfolds after that is irrelevant to me).

I think that it basically makes no difference to the actual fight. Shirou uses another projection, and it maybe helps Rider out a little, but it doesn't change the ultimate outcome of the fight one bit.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Also don't you need to go through the normal ending to get access to true anyway.

Nope, it's possible to get either the True or Normal ending on a first play-through, depending on Ilya points and the choice about using another projection. The only difference on subsequent play-throughs is that, if you make the correct choices for the True End, you get a choice between the True and Normal Ends when Shirou comes to destroy the Grail (as opposed to getting the True End automatically as you do in the first play-through).

Originally Posted by mirakura

I thought even Archer couldn't do excaliblast. Some thing in the side material or Wiki about him bluffing. But then again, I'm not sure. -_-' About the latter, Dark Sakura could have killed him.

Honestly, what actually happened is not really clear. It's pretty obvious that Shirou attempts to trace Excalibur, but what he actually did is a matter of debate.

I mean, if Cherry Lover decides to reply. I don't see a point in continuing the argument and will therefore stop. I'm not blaming anyone else for responding. I think you've misunderstood what I meant.

Well, duh, it's kind-of hard to have a one-sided argument....

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Honestly, what actually happened is not really clear. It's pretty obvious that Shirou attempts to trace Excalibur, but what he actually did is a matter of debate.

If he failed, I would lol so hard XDD. Don't count me into the debate if there is one. I don't care

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, he obviously traced something, since he blew up the Grail with it. The only question is what....

[Rising Dragon]

The way I see it, it was originally Excalibur. From what I understand of things, the inability to trace Excalibur was a retcon made later, likely to make Saber and Excalibur more "special," given that Saber is the most popular Type-MOON lady. That's why Prisma Ilya has Archer!Ilya tracing Excalibur, as apparently that scene was written before the retcon came about. What it is now officially is unclear, but it seems fairly obvious to me that the scene was written with Excalibur in mind. I imagine a lot of people still consider it being Excalibur even with knowledge of the retcon.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The way I see it, it was originally Excalibur. From what I understand of things, the inability to trace Excalibur was a retcon made later, likely to make Saber and Excalibur more "special," given that Saber is the most popular Type-MOON lady. That's why Prisma Ilya has Archer!Ilya tracing Excalibur, as apparently that scene was written before the retcon came about. What it is now officially is unclear, but it seems fairly obvious to me that the scene was written with Excalibur in mind. I imagine a lot of people still consider it being Excalibur even with knowledge of the retcon.

By 'retcon' do you mean that rule that 'divine obects can't be traced'. Meaning Ea, Avalon e.t.c can't be traced. Lol, and then there's the possible loophole in HF. Has nothing to do with being most popular. It's a rule in general. But in HF it could be broken but we don't know. Nasuverse just goes with the flow doesn't it?

[Rising Dragon]

I wouldn't count on it. More than likely the HF adaptation will follow the True End, rather than the Normal End, and IIRC Shirou doesn't trace the mystery weapon in the True End. If it DOES go the Normal End route, then very likely the adaptation will utilize a new weapon. For now, the faux-ambiguous wording used in the actual game scene has more or less covered Nasu's ass on the matter of what got used.

And yes, the "divine objects can't be traced" is the retcon I'm talking about. From what's been explained to me, there was never any rule like that when the game first came out, and Shirou's inability to trace Ea stems directly from the alien materials used rather than the divine origins. Excalibur is a weapon of the Fae realm, but Shirou's brain doesn't try to kill itself figuring out what it's made out of whenever he looks at it, unlike Ea.

[GDB]

In the original (not sure about Realta Nua), Excalibur was traceable. Archer said he could do it, and it was implied that's what Shirou used to destroy the Greater Grail. It wasn't outright shown, but there was no reason to believe it couldn't be done.

Then in one of the CMs, Nasu changed it and said that Excalibur was a divine object and couldn't be traced. So it was a retcon, because it basically changed things so that Archer was bluffing, and Shirou traced something that wasn't Excalibur. It doesn't break the game, as Rising Dragon said, but it's still 100% a retcon.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by GDB

In the original (not sure about Realta Nua), Excalibur was traceable. Archer said he could do it, and it was implied that's what Shirou used to destroy the Greater Grail. It wasn't outright shown, but there was no reason to believe it couldn't be done.

Then in one of the CMs, Nasu changed it and said that Excalibur was a divine object and couldn't be traced. So it was a retcon, because it basically changed things so that Archer was bluffing, and Shirou traced something that wasn't Excalibur. It doesn't break the game, as Rising Dragon said, but it's still 100% a retcon.

I see. But Excalibur or not, it doesn't change the fact the Grail was destroyed with a powerful weapon. As opposed to that, Excalibur would take some time to charge up right? Cos the prana needs to flow to the tip of the sword. Since I don't wanna start another argument(lols another), I have a question. Does anyone know what this line: Waiting for one's arrival. In UBW aria means? I get the other ones but this confused me.

[Mcfart]

Originally Posted by GDB

In the original (not sure about Realta Nua), Excalibur was traceable. Archer said he could do it, and it was implied that's what Shirou used to destroy the Greater Grail. It wasn't outright shown, but there was no reason to believe it couldn't be done.

Then in one of the CMs, Nasu changed it and said that Excalibur was a divine object and couldn't be traced. So it was a retcon, because it basically changed things so that Archer was bluffing, and Shirou traced something that wasn't Excalibur. It doesn't break the game, as Rising Dragon said, but it's still 100% a retcon.

Yes, Archer said that he can trace Excalibur if Saber resists, but that the resulting energy or whatever would likely kill them all (including Shirou).

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Mcfart

Yes, Archer said that he can trace Excalibur if Saber resists, but that the resulting energy or whatever would likely kill them all (including Shirou).

Nah, looking back on it, it does sound like bluffing. If he used a anti-world NP, then most likely. But unless they're in it's range which is literally a straight, broad line. If they move to the side, they'll live. We don't know if Excaliblast is enough to destroy a RM, but kill them all? Thats exaggerating it. In Zero there was Dia, Waver, and Iri close by, but they didn't die. Unless of course he means wherever he is in collapsing and killing them, they will live. Still, Excalibur takes alot of prana, even for Saber who has a magic core, Archer wouldn't fare well if he did use it. And the laws in Prillya deviate from the ones in FSN, so it is unwise to try and use the same logics.
Archer's mission was to kill Shirou right? He should have just used it then

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by GDB

In the original (not sure about Realta Nua), Excalibur was traceable. Archer said he could do it, and it was implied that's what Shirou used to destroy the Greater Grail. It wasn't outright shown, but there was no reason to believe it couldn't be done.

Then in one of the CMs, Nasu changed it and said that Excalibur was a divine object and couldn't be traced. So it was a retcon, because it basically changed things so that Archer was bluffing, and Shirou traced something that wasn't Excalibur. It doesn't break the game, as Rising Dragon said, but it's still 100% a retcon.

wouldn't it have just been excalibur-1? Shirou or Archer would never be able to trace a weapon complete with all of it's divinity. It would always be a level or 2 weaker. However with a weapon as strong as excalibur it would likely kill them in the process. It's not that they can't trace it. They just can't trace it and live to tell about it. For someone like Shirou with nothing to lose in that situation, there is nothing to fear in tracing it when he needs that level of power most.

[Rising Dragon]

The original scenes were pretty obviously written with them able to trace Excalibur in mind. Hence we have Archer threatening to use Excalibur against Saber, and Shirou using "the strongest sword he knew" to destroy the Greater Grail. The former's kind of an empty threat if he knows it'll kill him too, and if Saber presses the issue he's in trouble. The latter, well obviously it kills Shirou because he's already got one foot in the grave thanks to Archer's arm. His lack of skill that early comparatively speaking also would've done a number on him when he's trying to trace something Excalibur if he had been healthy, but it definitely going to be lethal in his condition in the Heaven's Feel finale.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The way I see it, it was originally Excalibur. From what I understand of things, the inability to trace Excalibur was a retcon made later, likely to make Saber and Excalibur more "special," given that Saber is the most popular Type-MOON lady. That's why Prisma Ilya has Archer!Ilya tracing Excalibur, as apparently that scene was written before the retcon came about. What it is now officially is unclear, but it seems fairly obvious to me that the scene was written with Excalibur in mind. I imagine a lot of people still consider it being Excalibur even with knowledge of the retcon.

Well, my personal opinion is that Retconning an essential part of the most fundamental piece of canon material with a statement in a Side-Material book is just ridiculous, so I just ignore the Retcon and go with what he originally showed in the VN.

The VN is more canonical than the Side-Material books, therefore the Side-Material books cannot over-ride the VN, IMO.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I wouldn't count on it. More than likely the HF adaptation will follow the True End, rather than the Normal End, and IIRC Shirou doesn't trace the mystery weapon in the True End. If it DOES go the Normal End route, then very likely the adaptation will utilize a new weapon.

It will be the True End. It would really piss off Sakura fans otherwise.

For now, the faux-ambiguous wording used in the actual game scene has more or less covered Nasu's ass on the matter of what got used.

Not really. UBW does not work by Shirou going "oh, I'd like a weapon a bit like Excalibur" and getting one. Shirou was specifically attempting to trace Excalibur, and his mind was not in any fit state to find an equivalent. The only option I can accept is that he attempted to trace it, but that the result was so inferior that you can't call it "Excalibur" any more.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Nah, looking back on it, it does sound like bluffing. If he used a anti-world NP, then most likely. But unless they're in it's range which is literally a straight, broad line. If they move to the side, they'll live. We don't know if Excaliblast is enough to destroy a RM, but kill them all? Thats exaggerating it. In Zero there was Dia, Waver, and Iri close by, but they didn't die. Unless of course he means wherever he is in collapsing and killing them, they will live. Still, Excalibur takes alot of prana, even for Saber who has a magic core, Archer wouldn't fare well if he did use it. And the laws in Prillya deviate from the ones in FSN, so it is unwise to try and use the same logics.
Archer's mission was to kill Shirou right? He should have just used it then

It's not like Archer was saying his Excalibur would've killed them all. He was saying his clashing with Saber's would kill them all. Per the law of conservation of energy, their blasts wouldn't cancel each other out. The energy would have to go somewhere, which is what would kill everyone.

He didn't want to do it, because he knows Shirou is one lucky bastard, plus he has the potential healing/durability of UBW/Avalon. He preferred not to risk having Shirou survive, since it'd completely drain him, though he would if Saber forced the issue.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

wouldn't it have just been excalibur-1? Shirou or Archer would never be able to trace a weapon complete with all of it's divinity.

Doesn't really change the issue at hand. Nasu said they were completely untraceable later due to materials required. This is why it's possible in the Moon Cell, but not on Earth.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

He didn't want to do it, because he knows Shirou is one lucky bastard, plus he has the potential healing/durability of UBW/Avalon. He preferred not to risk having Shirou survive, since it'd completely drain him, though he would if Saber forced the issue.

Actually, Archer says that, if he uses it, Shirou would be the only one to survive, because Saber would protect him. That is, of course, completely against Archer's goals (since Shirou is the one person he doesn't want to survive), hence why he wants to avoid that outcome at all costs.