(L) New Evangelion Project: Rebuild of Evangelion [Movies 1 & 2]

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I dunno, humor me young'in. :P Seeing as we've gone through this several pages ago too.

Scenario 1 is what we are getting, while scenario two was what I was both expecting/desiring.

It could have been much worse though, we could've got scenario 3. I'm glad that Anno isn't a shallow director like that.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I enjoy both endings for what they are worth.

However, I do realize in the end, it is better for everyone to have EoE over the TV series ending because in the TV ending, all our questions were never really answered.

It was a complete lack of closure that was the real ticket to pissing off a lot of fans.

Yea, I guess, which is why I end up liking EoE more.

However we must realize that the endings while seemingly parallel, where the end of the TV series reflects much of what is going on in the ehads of the characters of EoE, do not necessarily end the same.

It is arguable that Shinji chose to be complemented in the TV series, while Shinji chose differently in EoE.

What really happened in the End of the TV series? Only Anno knows. But I look at both the TV ending and EoE as you do, two sides of the same coin. They serve to complement each other rather than to be replacements of one another.

I always thought Shinji rejected instrumentality in the tv ending after the parody scene when he says that the real world is not so bad and he also says something along the line "I am me" "I want to be me" which doesn't sound like someone who's been merged with the souls of everyone else. Then again he also starts instrumentality in EoE but decides to stop it.

I guess we'll never know.

As for Rebuild, I guess time will tell... But things aren't looking too good based on what's transpired in Evangelion 2.0. I probably should just start looking at it as some sort of big flashy fanfiction...

Currently, I would say I'm not impressed with Rebuild... yet. We'll just have to see if they manage to come up with something memorable, or something I'll forget a few weeks later.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I always thought Shinji rejected instrumentality in the tv ending after the parody scene when he says that the real world is not so bad and he also says something along the line "I am me" "I want to be me" which doesn't sound like someone who's been merged with the souls of everyone else. Then again he also starts instrumentality in EoE but decides to stop it.

I guess we'll never know.

Not to rip this can of worms open again, but I tend to view them as different endings.

Evaotaku summarized it nicely here (about halfway down the page): http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq.html

The part that really gets to heart of the matter is this, I believe:

The very first title card of episode 26, TV version, states:

It was 2016 A.D.
The thing that people lost, in other words, the complementation of the mind has begun. However, there is not enough time to describe the entire process. Therefore, we will examine the complementation of the mind of a single boy named Ikari Shinji.

It is no leap in logic, or unsubstantiated interpretation, to say that this title card is basically explaining that Shinji is merely an example. There is not a shread of proof - at any point - during the TV ending that Shinji has the ability to halt Complementation. Throughout 25 and 26, we see the cases of Shinji, Asuka and Misato - their Complementation - concurrently. In the film ending, Shinji himself is the only person to truly begin Complementation. This opening title card immediately alludes to the idea that Shinji is simply the example of the process of complementation, and that he will be complemented - no choices, nothing. "we will examine the complementation of the mind". It's a very mechanical, sterile, opening. More importantly, it's very matter of fact. (Also, never mind that the TV ending is suddenly in 2016 while the EoE ending is in 2015.)

Finally - the quotation that I feel should be the final word on the topic, but people continue to challenge (if you're going to challenge the Newtype Filmbooks, then you might as well discount the RCB and various other materials. They all have errors in them in various ways).

The Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face). A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry.

However, there are also good arguments for why they are the same...I can't say one's right and the other's wrong. I prefer to believe the endings are different, though.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Having high expectations are but the first steps on the road to disappointment.

True, but it's also unavoidable. After ten years of no Eva, a new movie? My expectations were DAMN high, and so was my trepidation.

Undoubtedly, my environment and mindset helped shape my impression of the movie, and I had just arrived in Tokyo for a three-month trip, everything was new and exciting, I got to see the movie in a great theatre (after picking up a bunch of swag in the lobby), and it was mind-blowing. It also helped that I had managed to avoid spoilers about it.

I'd like to think that if the movie had sucked, though, any amount of environmental hype wouldn't have made it seem good.

2.0, I saw in the same theatre almost a year ago, and it was likewise mind-blowing. Since the story deviated more, I found it harder to follow. Seeing it a second time helped, though. I wish I'd been able to see it a third time (as I did with the first movie).

I enjoy being an Eva fan in "real time" again, of course, but that's just the icing on the cake. I don't believe the new movies are BETTER than the series in any way except technically, but I like them almost as much. Maybe it's a flaw in my character, but I find I simply can't be cynical about the movies. I'm simply enjoying them too much to carp.

[bigdeath]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Scenario 1 is what we are getting, while scenario two was what I was both expecting/desiring.

It could have been much worse though, we could've got scenario 3. I'm glad that Anno isn't a shallow director like that.

I disagree, I think we are getting Scenario 1. The characters really haven't changed that much. They are just more understanding of their own emotions and are more assertive than in the original. But they are still the same kids.

@Yot-chan: I think its a flaw in purist not to be able to appreciate revisions. Having an open mind to change is a good thing.

I hear the same arguments with the new star trek movie. They changed the characters so its ruined. Personally, I loved the new star trek movie.

[Klashikari]

Quite late to the party, but finally got to watch 2.22 last week, and due to a lot of memory phasing fun after watching the original series like 8 years ago, I gave a straight marathon, watching respectively 1-26 and EoE, it certainly helped to gather the pieces and form something akin to an opinion (and optionally reading Re-Take).

Anyway, I wasn't a "hardcore fan" of Evangelion, due to the ending I considered as a sham. Even after watching the original series this week end, I really can't praise the original series ending, for its brutal and non conclusive end, giving a utter cluster mindfuck of Shinji's pyche for 40 full minutes, with obvious budget-crisis measures.
It wasn't really about the "message" behind it, but rather how the presentation was done. This is even more compelling with EoE, delivering something "simple" in theory, but beating around the bush with characters taken out like flies for basically nothing.
Evangelion wouldn't be Evangelion without its mindfuck, depressing and gloomy mood. However, the major issue "I" had with the series in general was the presentation of such despair with the characters, being close to ad nauseam, especially with Shinji (Shinji is perhaps the character that has the shortest end of a stick and had the utmost right to rant forever, but I couldn't help but get tired with overextended crying and whining at some key points... but others were vastly pertinent, like Unit-03 incident).

Now, as some already mentioned, I couldn't help but feel relieved that Rebuild manages to keep the essence of the series, but as the same time, being "refreshed" as a whole.
Whilst it is obvious the transition made the franchise lose quite some substancial character development in the process, a lot of excessive content was purged in a good way.

For one, I do not consider Shinji as "gar", well not yet. Rather, I appreciate how he doesn't literally falls in a slumber of despair as often as previously. Being thrown in this shitty situation still makes him react as a helpless chicken for good reasons, but that's his human side (as several people mentioned, the way how he screamed when being blown by Remiel in 1.11 pretty much indicate how hellish the pain was and how desperate he wanted to flee without asking anything in return).
That being said, whilst 2.22 certainly drastically changed the direction of the plot, I think Shinji is downright the same helpless boy when the situation "calls for it", but it was a bit overshadowed with lighter stuff (such like the aquarium sequence and so forth).
The final scene after Zeruel's defeat makes me think Shinji just was a bit more active and affected by the whole ordeal, it was definitely not an act of courage or bravery, but downright conviction. I say that because his action was clear, as he said "at least" when trying to save Rei. This word had a subtle underlying meaning that Shinji was utterly struck by the recent loss (namely, Asuka being totally screwed while he was the only one who could do something about it, yet was totally powerless thanks to the dummy), and was frantic in trying to do something to amend that, even if it is sort of unconscious.
I will agree that the whole "grunting sequence" was tad too long, but Shinji was shown as definitely trying to grasp what little is left of his conviction, which is the bond he made with other Eva Pilots. That he could "finally" do something, and for once, without expecting to be thanked/praised for it.

Another point that might call down the wrath of some fans but...
Regarding the point between Soryu VS Shikinami, I really don't see the big deal behind that. I won't pretend that I'm a huge Asuka fan (especially if you factor the extremely obnoxious counterpart in the manga), but I certainly appreciate her more in the movie than the series.
Albeit some scenes are definitely similar to your -running mill harem shows-, it is still within the general idea of Asuka's personality I would say. That being said, I believe it is way too early to claim she is -really- dumbed down while they certainly didn't have the opportunity to flesh out her character... though it certainly permit us to avoid these abominable jealousy scenes, ranting about the "invincible shinji" and whatever a frustrated pilot can go with.
The other welcoming point was the complete obliteration of Asuka/Kaji relationship. It certainly doesn't hold the candle against Misato/Kaji's relationship, and to be honest, Asuka's crush really didn't hold that much in the original series. As fresh as it is, although it has shown Asuka being serious and all, it is certainly not a mandatory sub-plot for her.
That said, I can see why seeing Asuka being so frank about her own personality and expectations with Misato is shocking. But it is yet again how it is refreshing to have the same character regarding themself in a different angle, instead of the callous and rampant "me, me, me and me". Perhaps it should have been more appropriate if Asuka made such kind of confession later, like in the third movie or after the mandatory brain rape. But I guess they did bother showing Asuka facing her own "loneliness" to a certain degree, before indulging herself to hang around with people of her age.

On the other hand, this will lead to a major complaint that I have to agree with those who weren't pleased with Asuka's change: how she was shafted for Mari.
I do not mind having a new character altogether, however, I must say that Mari really doesn't add much to the franchise. Actually, she is kind of drastically different to the cast, which makes her a bit of an alien compared to the whole mood. Although I was a bit annoyed by the compelled lack of information about her, it seems they basically discarded Asuka big time, just to have a poor excuse to put Mari in Unit-02. Seriously, if they needed to play that card out... how about turning Asuka into vegetable due to Arael's psycho-beam-of-doom. That would bring out the whole issue with Asuka AND remain a proper reason for Mari to jack-in Unit-02 (and frankly, NERV security never ceases to amaze me in the wrong way: I mean, a single rogue pilot being able to UNSEAL Unit-02, putting it in launch bay and having a sortie? There is a limit to tools and whatever convenient ressource a "spy" may have).
Mari's presence and the convenient Eva restriction treaty were a bit too much for this fancy change, despite they could have used the original material without needlessly twisting it further than they should.

Meanwhile, Rei's development was really fast. A bit -too fast- but regardless, it was giving out the obvious course of action she would take, after what happened with Shinji in 1.11. Somehow though, the dinner idea was a bit sudden, and I would have expected Rei to learn about that from someone like Misato in fact.

Other notable "nice" points for me:
-Sahaquiel and Zeruel's design improvements and improved dynamism of the fights (sprinter 01!)
Seriously, if they could only make Zeruel and Remiel teaming up, it would have been an epic massacre
-BGM: I'm still looping "Destiny" and "Fate", along with "Sin from Genesis".
-Rei's "poka poka"

Details that I wasn't exactly impressed with:
-Test plug suit: for the love of Aiur... this is quite an ugly suit we have here. A terrible idea for a terrible fanservice portion
-Ridiculous BGM/song choice for Unit-01 wiping the floor with 03, and the defeat of Zeruel. It may be more "disturbing" for some people, but for me, it literally froze my mind, breaking the momentum and the mood of these 2 scenes.
-Asuka's introduction was sort of over the top (look, a rainbow!)... but well, it isn't anything more ridiculous than the "fishing" party


In general, I would say I enjoyed the movies much more than the original series, though I would say that the cuts on the characters developments aren't without any damage on the franchise.
Funnily enough, I think it is because of my knowledge of the original material that I can enjoy the movies that much, while I would have a lot of "?" marks on my head if I didn't.

I have no idea if Anno will keep it up, but regardless if he manage to improve the series in a successful fashion or not, I certainly hope he will manage to create the Evangelion incarnation -he- wanted to do, and no one else's idea.
...However, wishful thinking: if he does something similar to Re-take in term of unfolding events, I would be satisfied to no end (the first living proof a doujin can best out the original material in my books )

[RisArk]

The rainbow's been there for most Angel death's, though

[BetoJR]

Better not to dwell on it for too long, eh? Anyway, I've watched the second movie a couple more times and I honestly cannot find many problems with it, other than the fact that it ended. Granted, these will probably never have the same impact the series (and original movies) did on me, but I'm enjoying what I'm getting so far.

[Waking_Dreamer]

[original quote removed]

Well the people at Weta Workshop all had to watch the series and ended up to be quite the fans afterwards. Im pretty sure they were all grown up people, possibly with families of their own...

[rainrix]

Originally Posted by Waking_Dreamer

Well the people at Weta Workshop all had to watch the series and ended up to be quite the fans afterwards. Im pretty sure they were all grown up people, possibly with families of their own...

I wasn't clear, you can still enjoy it for it's action scenes, pretty images and good animation but it can't shake you.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by rainrix

I wasn't clear, you can still enjoy it for it's action scenes, pretty images and good animation but it can't shake you.

Its only your opinion.

The girl sitting beside my group in the cinema was in tears during Zeruel fight and 3rd Impact.

Too bad for you if you fail to get 'shaken'.

[RisArk]

Oh yeah, wished the movies had Asuka being thrown into a volcano. That's the missing piece.

And more Aida. Who doesn't need more Aida?

[Myssa Rei]

You mean Ken being annoying and a mite insensitive due to the piloting issue? :P "I want to be a pilot!" Riiiight.

[Greg88]

Hmmm, i know i'm a bit late, but i feel like i have to add my two cents to the "Mari Sue" debate.

First of, i would like to note that it seems like there isn't a proper, strict definition on what makes a Mary Sue, so i shall use my own version of the term.

In my mind, a Mary Sue is not necessarily a wish-fulfillment or a self-insert character, but a character whose sole purpose is to appeal to as large as a portion of the audience as possible. To be "awesome", and nothing else. Not a bend, hook or twist to her personality.

I feel that Mari is such a character. And that's just so damn lazy, at least on the writers part. It takes only the most minimal amount of creative effort to write a character that will make most of the fanbase fall in love with them, especially if one knows their fans like the guys at Khara do. Drag any halfway literate kid from the street to a brainstorming session, and he/she will be able to come up with a character who feels like every fanboy's wet fantasy.

"Eh, give her some awesome fight scenes and boobs the size of watermelons."

Lazy writing, in general, is one of my biggest gripes with 2.0 (i'm not gonna dismiss Rebuild as a whole, but i think that the movies themselves can be judged as standalone entities): i enjoyed the movie, would give it 7 out of 10 points, but i just can't believe it that the script we are treated to is the best the talent pool at Studio Khara could come up with in two years, the amount of time it took to make 2.0.

Honestly, it feels like they hacked together a script in the span of a lazy afternoon, the went on to animate it as prettily as humanly possible.

[-Sho-]

So finally watch 2.2 .

Hmmm i'm not against that they changed the "story" and add extra fanservice .
I wonder if they'll change the ending as well ?

Anyway I don't see anything great for Mary , we barely know her except that she's insane in EVA . She's just extra fanserv .

Erf , Asuka , need moar .

Best scene was the Berserk mode .

Well good animation , voice cast , characters but it lacks something , i was half bored watching this movie . Maybe cuz things happened too fast and there were many things removed .

Overall , i'll give 7/10 .

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

i was half bored watching this movie . Maybe cuz things happened too fast and there were many things removed .

Overall , i'll give 7/10 .

Well thats a first...for something to seemingly move so fast and have material you already know removed...is what makes you bored...?

I thought things would be the opposite if you were to be bored.

[-Sho-]

Well i think that there were not so much development , they directly take on action with Angel , Angel , Angel . So it was empty and then i was half bored . Dunno how to say it but that wasn't so impressive .

[Francismeunier]

It was amazing! All being redone with the details. It was like andrenaline being shot into you. They even made Rei's body much better with her breasts. Some parts that were amazing to me.......gorgeous and amazing scenes like this one redone!=>

that was so nice! The details like ones of this attack craft=>

Spoiler:

So pizza hut sponsoring again anime?=>

Spoiler:

Well redone Rei here=>

Spoiler:

Amazingly crisp and nice smile of Rei here=>

Spoiler:

Perfected and redone scene with Angel that changes shape to shoot it's insane laser blast that even melted so much this mountain was completely =>

Spoiler:

If I could I would give this over 9000 easily compared to its original and yes I compared it!

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Greg88

Hmmm, i know i'm a bit late, but i feel like i have to add my two cents to the "Mari Sue" debate.

First of, i would like to note that it seems like there isn't a proper, strict definition on what makes a Mary Sue, so i shall use my own version of the term.

In my mind, a Mary Sue is not necessarily a wish-fulfillment or a self-insert character, but a character whose sole purpose is to appeal to as large as a portion of the audience as possible. To be "awesome", and nothing else. Not a bend, hook or twist to her personality.

I feel that Mari is such a character. And that's just so damn lazy, at least on the writers part. It takes only the most minimal amount of creative effort to write a character that will make most of the fanbase fall in love with them, especially if one knows their fans like the guys at Khara do. Drag any halfway literate kid from the street to a brainstorming session, and he/she will be able to come up with a character who feels like every fanboy's wet fantasy.

"Eh, give her some awesome fight scenes and boobs the size of watermelons."

Lazy writing, in general, is one of my biggest gripes with 2.0 (i'm not gonna dismiss Rebuild as a whole, but i think that the movies themselves can be judged as standalone entities): i enjoyed the movie, would give it 7 out of 10 points, but i just can't believe it that the script we are treated to is the best the talent pool at Studio Khara could come up with in two years, the amount of time it took to make 2.0.

Honestly, it feels like they hacked together a script in the span of a lazy afternoon, the went on to animate it as prettily as humanly possible.

I must congratulate you on being able to articulate what I could not in my earlier mary sue debate. Perhaps she isn't the classical definition of a Sue, but the definition has changed over the years and is used pretty broadly nowadays.

P.S. I was in the hospital for the week (Probably from the stress of the sheer disappointment I suffered during this movie, jk) so don't think you guys could have had your respite while I was gone.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Perhaps she isn't the classical definition of a Sue, but the definition has changed over the years and is used pretty broadly nowadays.

These days though the term is just being used as a 'catch-all' to describe a character that a specific viewer may not like for whatever reason (someone posted the hilarious Sheryl Nome/Ranka Lee polemic, where people who disliked either were throwing MARY SUE! accusations when it was pretty obvious in the show that they weren't), when it wasn't like that at all. That's just lazy and moronic.

If you have to wail on someone being a Mary Sue, then by Haruhi you better know what you're talking about first.

While TV Tropes as a source is dubious as it is (but useful for a laugh), it does outline popular patterns of Mary Sue-ness. My favorites are the Purity Sue and the Classic Sue. It is also the source of this delightful observation on the controversies that have arisen about the term itself:

Spoiler for Controversies of Definition:

Interpretations of Mary Sue

As mentioned above, there are many interpretations of what does or doesn't constitute a Mary Sue. In this sense, Mary Sue isn't so much a trope as it is a brand name, with the usage being determined by both writer and reader. It is not limited in usage, getting applied to all characters regardless of gender, role, or species. Sometimes, even whole groups, organizations, and even societies are labeled as being Mary Sue. This is a list of some of the interpretations. They are here to offer insight into why people might call a character a Mary Sue.

Mary Sue as Protagonist You Don't Like
An alarmingly widespread use of the term, and one reason a lot of people feel that the term has lost whatever useful meaning it once had. There are a lot of reasons why this usage is so common. Most obviously, as rants about and mockery of the Mary Sue phenomenon became increasingly well-known in fandom, it became increasingly easy to throw the term around as Flame Bait. The fact that so many of the other definitions are highly subjective doesn't help.

People who accuse characters of being Mary Sues rarely admit that this is the definition they're using. The best way to tell is if their justifications for the character's Sue-hood are all based on shoehorning, Alternate Character Interpretation, misrepresenting the sources, and Accentuate The Negative. Describe any non-fanfic character as a Canon Sue, and you'll be lucky if no one accuses you of using this definition of the term.

Mary Sue as Poorly Written Character
Related to the above, this interpretation posits that a Mary Sue is simply a character that breaks Willing Suspension Of Disbelief due to carrying improbable, contradictory, and even paradoxical elements while being written in an inconsistent manner. It should be noted that almost no writers do this intentionally, and those who do it will usually make the same sort of mistakes with other characters as well. Due to Character Focus, however, one character will tend to gather more of these than the others. Generally only gets thrown around in fanfiction, due to the baseline of the story being different from the source.

Mary Sue as Idealized Character
The interpretation that Mary Sue is a character that is idealized to a fault. A very influential interpretation, this one tends to get applied to most discussions. This theory posits that a Mary Sue is an unrealistically capable and virtuous character, one who simply lacks flaws and is depicted in an overly positive light. This tends to draw the most debate, as this model of character is extremely common, and also a lot more accepted than people give it credit for. Charles Dickens, one of the established classic authors, used to specialize in creating characters like this. A lot of characters in both male- and female-centric fiction simply lack meaningful flaws, but are more than accepted because they work as Escapism for the audience.

However, both this interpretation and a shift of society as a whole towards cynicism has led to many people trying to mask their otherwise idealized characters with either total non-flaws (e.g. being So Beautiful, It's A Curse and other Cursed With Awesome details), flaws by proxy (e.g. Dark And Troubled Past), or flaws that simply don't play any role in the plot at all (e.g. making a character an alcoholic, but never showing them as impeded by it). Often, this leads to a particular extreme where people start treating flaws themselves as Character Development and create a character that simply has no merits outside of being able to do the most basic biological functions (Anti Sue).

Granted Mari has raised hackles of some viewers, but the complaints about her are less about being a Mary Sue as per original definition, but closer to some of the issues mentioned in the Controversies section, particularly the first and third listed issues -- being a Character You Don't Like or being an Idealized Character. It's really still too early to brand her as a Sue, as so far she's only appeared only once, though subsequent movies in the Rebuild series may rectify that.