Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[darkchibi07]

A battle of attrition; wearing the pilots down for hours. Now that's clever plan those 3 powers came up with.

[SonicX_Zero]

Well I guess it was a good thing they fast forwarded between those 15 hours of bombarding, and I wonder why they didn't choose to space drop some of the other Gundams. You know to have a grand entrance or something since they were just going to stand there and get pummeled anyway by 800 MS and missile bombardments, but it seems despite CB's intel and Billy's info Sumeragi's backup plans failed. =(

[Itadakimasu!]

The best tactic for the gundams in this situation was to plan a counter offensive. Instead of getting Exia and Virtue to try securing a withdrawal route, it would have been far more effective to have had them attack the AEU command post, thus throwing their aerial routine into chaos. With that window of opportunity it might have been possible for K and D to hightail it out without being carpetbombed.

[SonicX_Zero]

I think the escape route was pretty pointless considering they had no idea where the enemy bombardment were coming from and that they were out in the open.

[fuzzles]

I feel robbed after watching this episode, grr they shouldn't hype this to death I was expecting so much more. the meisters make me angry

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra

I think its far more interesting for the 3 powers not to capture any gundams. That way they can keep on fielding new specialized units, trying to form effective counters to the gundams. (Those specialized suits that captured virtue comes to mind).

I'm sure they'll get there eventually, the current struggle is balanced by how few CB suits are and how much resources the world has. Gundam technology leaking to the 3 powers would totally neutralize whatever real advantage CB has.

Well, i'm thinking the gundam tech would only leak to one of the sides for now not all three... and really, the resources that the world has seems to pretty much pail in comparison to what CB has. i mean, with just 4 suits that have managed to conduct 60 successful missions with only a little bit of trouble. Now it turns out their are actually 7 of them and we are likely gonna see the Thones save the reamining 4 and thus pointing out that a 1000 MS was not enough to actually beat the gundams, just drive them away... Really, the advantage right now is clearly in CB's favor... i think the ace pilots of the world are gonna need mcuh better suits if they are gonna even out the fight

On the episode, I just realized how dramatic yet utterly terrible the timing is for the thrones' arrival. So, there's 3 new gundams, big deal, the combined might of the 3 powers just took care of 4 gundams.

Aside from initial surprise there's nothing that prevents them from using the same tactic "overwhelm with grunt numbers and pin them down to exhaustion." that was so effective in taking care of setsuna and co.

5 or 6 gundams at once may have put the leaders in panic and disarray but with only 3 to deal with (going in just when the original 4 are beyond exhaustion) then by rights, the earth powers should win.

Well one problem the world powers have is that they don't want to blow up their own aces... for them to start the bombardment again, the aces are gonna have to pull out so that are clear of the attack... however, the ace pilots are gonna be the first targets of the Thones and thus the thones will be able to keep in a close range battle with a few units instead of a long range bombardment. Only time they will get a chance to start the bombardment is when the Ace's are defeated and CB starts making it's escape... however, now the bombardment forces will be dealing with moving targets instead of ones that are already pinned down

Originally Posted by Itadakimasu!

The best tactic for the gundams in this situation was to plan a counter offensive. Instead of getting Exia and Virtue to try securing a withdrawal route, it would have been far more effective to have had them attack the AEU command post, thus throwing their aerial routine into chaos. With that window of opportunity it might have been possible for K and D to hightail it out without being carpetbombed.

Exia is certainly in no condition to fight and the same probably goes for Virtue, Kyrios, and Dynamas aswell... the Gundam's themselves might still be working, but the pilots are completely out of it. Setsuna can barely move, Teira is probably out of it from the shocks from those shields, Lockon seems to be feeling some serious fatigue, and the last one is unconscious (though he has sprung back before, though his alter ego would still suffer the same fatigue)... really, none of those four, especially Exia and Virtue are be able to pull off a counter offensive

[gathershot]

I just saw the fansub of that ep. This ep and the next one will probably be the turning point of the first season or at least, the first big one.

What is very disturbing is that the CB crew, I mean sumeragi and everybody but the 4 meisters, seemed so quiet considering these events. Watching Felt being able to sleep is very disturbing. Of course, they worry because 1000 MS at once isnt their usual treat. But it is as if they knew that somehow, it had to happen, as if it was time.

Besides, it'd very surprising that they werent aware of that 1000MS operation considering
1/ All the people such operation involves and its hugeness
2/ CB intelligence network
3/ CB strategists

Sumeragi looked much more sad than worried. And they were all talking about enigmatic stuff while drinking coffee. weird.

I also want to say that
1/ it was so funny to hear Setsuna screaming "Gunnnnndaaaaam!!!" like a madman. He's a very special one.
2/ I got freaked by patrick when they made that kind of fisheye effect on him at the moment he attacked Virtue.

[DJ_RockmanX]

Originally Posted by Itadakimasu!

The best tactic for the gundams in this situation was to plan a counter offensive. Instead of getting Exia and Virtue to try securing a withdrawal route, it would have been far more effective to have had them attack the AEU command post, thus throwing their aerial routine into chaos. With that window of opportunity it might have been possible for K and D to hightail it out without being carpetbombed.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Exia is certainly in no condition to fight and the same probably goes for Virtue, Kyrios, and Dynames as well... the Gundam's themselves might still be working, but the pilots are completely out of it. Setsuna can barely move, Tieria is probably out of it from the shocks from those shields, Lockon seems to be feeling some serious fatigue, and the last one is unconscious (though he has sprung back before, though his alter ego would still suffer the same fatigue)... really, none of those four, especially Exia and Virtue are be able to pull off a counter offensive

I think Itasakimasu! meant having Exia and Virtue go on the offensive as soon as they arrived on the battlefield. This would have been when the pilots were still fresh into the fight, so there'd be no issue of the fatigue that has worn the Meisters down so much.

That said, the priority of Exia and Virtue at the start of the battle was to cut a path for Dynames and Kyrios to escape, and then have all four Meisters come together and regroup. It was more of a "get in, get out; as fast as possible" strategy, to avoid the extended battle that would ensue from a long counter-offensive.

They almost achieved this too, had it not been for the excellently timed MS attack by the HRL squad. Specifically it was Super Soldier Soma's presence that started the beginning of the end for the Meisters - had it not been the HRL, Kyrios would not have stalled due to Allelujah's head pains, and Kyrios and Dynames would not have been pinned down so far away from Exia and Virtue, if at all.

[AuditionEX]

wow.. breathtalkin ep 15 lol and yay! the thrones are now in action

[musicalcroc]

My two cents: as gathershot pointed out, there are fishy things going on
1. Sumeragi: she seems to betray the Meisters somehow. Her plan actually pushes them into worse situation. The change from B2 to E5 puts Allelujah to face with his nemesis Soma and she knows that. Yet she still lets it go on. She also seems to know beforehand that there is no chance for the Meisters to survive, hence her resigned attitude. Is she forced to do that by the higher-up in CB for a bigger and more sinister plan, i.e. the appearance of the Thrones? She may not know about the new Gundams but she can be ordered to sacrifice the current Meisters nonetheless.
2. Why does it seem that only Setsuna and Tieria know about the trap? Is it because they are more obedient to CB? Setsuna idolizes the Gundams and Tieria needs no elaboration. Are Lockon and Allelujah kept in the dark because they are likely to rebel against the order? Lockon is too sensible to walk into certain death without explanation and Allelujah has defied order before. Hence the grouping Lockon with Allelujah and Setsuna with Tieria.
One more comment: the Meisters are bad at strategic thinking (I admit I'm no better than they if I'm in their situation)

[Ryuk]

I think you are onto something there, Sumeragi did point out the fact that there could be more gundams. Why would she do something like that in front of an enemy, and why if she got info on the trap did she not use it.

I think the throne entry is indeed a setup. It is there to let the alliance think they can win by letting them pin down 4 gundams then enter and decimate the concentrated forces with 3 experienced gundam pilots(also don't count the meisters out just yet, hehe maybe they'll do some human enhancing drugs to fight further even when dead tired). I also think that few of the meisters knew of this plan, after all who wants to be bait?

Think of it this way, if the 4 meisters were informed of this trap, then they would of course choose to destroy the bombardment mechas and the kamikaze flyers(or any other group) rather than fall victim to them. But they could not have destroyed them all, as soon as they successfully crushed any one of these, I'm guessing the rest would pull out and rethink their strategies. So rather than doing that, what I think CB is doing is setting up a counter trap(by drawing in massive forces on the meister's gundams) with the 3 gundams that are likely specialized for fighting masses(or they are going to save the 4 gundams and do a 7 gundam slaughter).

We shall see who predicts this correctly.

[cors8]

Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra

Well, they should know there are only 3 more because they have the entire battlefield covered with communication devices effectively monitoring the real time location of any GN drive.

Well, if that were the case, then they would've known about the 3 Thrones well before they showed up.

[Papaya]

Don't forget that the Thrones apparently have different GN Drives.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by SonicX_Zero

Well I guess it was a good thing they fast forwarded between those 15 hours of bombarding, and I wonder why they didn't choose to space drop some of the other Gundams. You know to have a grand entrance or something since they were just going to stand there and get pummeled anyway by 800 MS and missile bombardments, but it seems despite CB's intel and Billy's info Sumeragi's backup plans failed. =(

She didn't use his plans.

And omg this episode was BOMB!!!! 10 all the way!!!! Hate the stupid cliff-hanger!!! Want to see epiosde 16 now!!!! And wow Hallelujah is indeed a total ass right there leaving Allelujah to get owned like that.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX

I think Itasakimasu! meant having Exia and Virtue go on the offensive as soon as they arrived on the battlefield. This would have been when the pilots were still fresh into the fight, so there'd be no issue of the fatigue that has worn the Meisters down so much.

Ah my mistake, didn't realize he was talking about what they SHOULD have done instead of what they should do NOW

So now for a proper response

Originally Posted by Itasakimasu!

The best tactic for the gundams in this situation was to plan a counter offensive. Instead of getting Exia and Virtue to try securing a withdrawal route, it would have been far more effective to have had them attack the AEU command post, thus throwing their aerial routine into chaos. With that window of opportunity it might have been possible for K and D to hightail it out without being carpetbombed.

i'd have to double check the episode, but the carpet bombing was really just one part of the barrage... we also had the long range attacks by hundreds of other units. Attacks being launched by the HRL and the Union...

Not to mention that command post was liekly guarded by hundreds of AEU units... If Virtue and Exia tried to attack the command post they would have likely received a barrage like they did after Virtue's first shot, and got themselves pinned down... possibly even faster as they would be relatively close to the AEU base to attack it; i would guess that where they did attack from was actually pretty far from any of the command posts

[steven3242]

sorry for the "unknown guy suddenly post" in the middle of discussion

but i just want give my 2 cents about the "why the gundams didnt move out when they got owned" thing

first of all, they did try at first but failed and after that part they just pretty much "standing" there accepting their fate or something like that.

you must remember that gundams is heavy and they are fighting in mostly sand terrain which mean they probably need to focus to "balance" the gundam in the middle of fire fight while the enemy is pretty much do stand and spam method.

to put in simple terms, just think how is your condition in 1 of that gundam when you need to:

- endure yourself after a long long nonstop battle
- look around for any incoming attack so at least you can try minimize the damage
- try to fend off the ace unit (which is somewhat failed)
- focus on main monitor while keep regular check on your gundam "status" (overheat, balance, radar, energy etc etc,that gundam is not fully automatic so that you can just concern on move left right aim crosshair and shoot like using PS2 analog right?)
- trying to think a way to move away from the attack ESPECIALLY after you are successfully failed at first try (which cause morale breakdown)
- try to keep your morale and your will from breaking apart when a massive army is surrounding you 360 degree complete with their aces

and probably other things, and thats happen CONSTANTLY AT THE SAMETIME for several hours (even more i think)

seriously if it were me, i probably already gone crazy mumbling we all are gonna die and spam all my weapon until no more ammo (or overheat) and then just charge through them ala 300, which is a massive failure considering at the end of the episode there is a help coming to save them out from that hell.

so i say, they are not "standing" there accepting everything but, more like "staying calm and think" (which doesnt look like it but i blame sunrise for that part )

[Forgetful_Duck]

The thrones look very dark and sinister....

Especially the blood spray GN particle effect.

[Lendial]

WOW this ep was more exciting than the last 14 combined times 2. And such a cruel way to end it. i havent been this excited to see the next ep of any anime in many months.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by musicalcroc

2. Why does it seem that only Setsuna and Tieria know about the trap? Is it because they are more obedient to CB? Setsuna idolizes the Gundams and Tieria needs no elaboration. Are Lockon and Allelujah kept in the dark because they are likely to rebel against the order? Lockon is too sensible to walk into certain death without explanation and Allelujah has defied order before. Hence the grouping Lockon with Allelujah and Setsuna with Tieria.
One more comment: the Meisters are bad at strategic thinking (I admit I'm no better than they if I'm in their situation)

All of the meisters knew there was a trap waiting for them; why do you think both Kyrios AND Dynamas wre sent in to take out 3 grunt terrorists when only one would suffice? because Sumaragi knew that they two of them together had a better chance of making it out than one of them going in Solo

Originally Posted by Ryuk

I think you are onto something there, Sumeragi did point out the fact that there could be more gundams. Why would she do something like that in front of an enemy, and why if she got info on the trap did she not use it.

Well she was already known for having abilities with tactics... really, she just told them what any tactictian would think with the given information... CB having more gundams, self destruction and so froth; all of those were fairly obvious conclusions and the union's tacticians probably already thought of similar possibilities

Think of it this way, if the 4 meisters were informed of this trap, then they would of course choose to destroy the bombardment mechas and the kamikaze flyers(or any other group) rather than fall victim to them. But they could not have destroyed them all, as soon as they successfully crushed any one of these, I'm guessing the rest would pull out and rethink their strategies. So rather than doing that, what I think CB is doing is setting up a counter trap(by drawing in massive forces on the meister's gundams) with the 3 gundams that are likely specialized for fighting masses(or they are going to save the 4 gundams and do a 7 gundam slaughter).

Well one problem with attacking the bombardment is wheather or not your talking about before the bombardment starts or after... for one thing, if CB were to attack the world powers when they were conducted what the world saw as a massive military exercise it would make CB look terrible; it practically contradicts their work to make themselves look good by saving that religious leader

As for attack the bombardment units right after they started, well there's a number of difficulties... first one of the gundams still needs to go in a take out those terrorists, and thus get pinned down... CB has to deal with almost a 1000 units, the only ways to save the one Gundam is to either take out the bombardment or create an escape route... seeing as it is hard to deal with 1000 units, it is easier to make the escape route, however, this lead to virtue being targeted; Virtue was planning on attacking after creating an escape, but got bombarded and pinned down... This then leaves only the reamining two gundams to actually attack 1000 MS; a pretty impossible task since they are likely to get pinned down aswell by long range attacks... So rather than have them attack the enemy directly, Sumeragi had the other two gundams stay close to the ones bound to get attacked thinking the the units had a better chance of escaping together than alone... Think about it, had Exia stayed close to Virtue, Exia might have been able to save Virtue from getting trapped like it did

really, when it comes down to it, the enemy was waiting for CB... had CB tried to attack, the enemy would have seen them coming from a mile away (literally), and started bombarding them long before the Gundams could takes some serious shots at them... Virtue as we saw, was only able to pull off one single shot before getting pinned down, and that one shot could only take out a dozen out of hundreds

[monster]

Originally Posted by steven3242

you must remember that gundams is heavy and they are fighting in mostly sand terrain which mean they probably need to focus to "balance" the gundam in the middle of fire fight while the enemy is pretty much do stand and spam method.

Uh, that explanation doesn't work since most mobile suits in 00 can at least hover, if not fly.