Macross - Mecha, Weapons, and Technology

[BetoJR]

At most, we could hope for redesigns, I believe. On the Monster and Klan's suit, at least.

[Bad wolf]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

What, Sheryl is a slut? What does *this* then say about Ranka?

At minimal she got glomped by an alien at worst she got raped by one, what did you think?


btw sorry for this next part is prolly gonna be off topic(or on topic, I don't even know anymore) but what were the guns from the vf-25's firing? It looked like laser/beams but in episode 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOAzlxjOpd8 (like, at the very beginning) shell-looking things were shooting out of the gun.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Bad wolf

At minimal she got glomped by an alien at worst she got raped by one, what did you think?

Dude, just let it go. It's an edited clip and holds no real meaning. -_-

[justavisitor]

@Bad wolf

I would recommend to take a look at this website
http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-25_Messiah...it's very detailed
tho I have no idea why it is so detailed (maybe they make it up a little bit?? I don't know lol)

As for the gun, I would think VF-25's gun pods are firing solid round in the beginning, and they either upgrade the bullet or upgrade the gun to the energy gun similar to VF-27 in the middle of the series..hope some experts could answer this question in a more professional way

[Tak]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

As for the gun, I would think VF-25's gun pods are firing solid round in the beginning, and they either upgrade the bullet or upgrade the gun to the energy gun similar to VF-27 in the middle of the series..hope some experts could answer this question in a more professional way

Kinetic based weaponry in the form of auto cannons are still the basis of a Valkyrie's offensive capabilities. While energy rifles have made it into the arsenal of UN SPACY, they are specialist weapons and considerably rare. Although there is no official explanation for that trend. On a side note, most battleship weapons are energy-based.

However, Zent weapons are almost exclusively energy-based.

- Tak

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

@Bad wolf

I would recommend to take a look at this website
http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-25_Messiah...it's very detailed
tho I have no idea why it is so detailed (maybe they make it up a little bit?? I don't know lol)

As for the gun, I would think VF-25's gun pods are firing solid round in the beginning, and they either upgrade the bullet or upgrade the gun to the energy gun similar to VF-27 in the middle of the series..hope some experts could answer this question in a more professional way

The VF-25 remains using the same 58mm KE gatling gunpod throughout the series, but the shells are changed and upgraded throughout the series. It starts off using presumably SAPHEI shells (or a mix of AP and HE like what the USAF & USN used to do), which are then upgraded to shells that penetrate Vajra armor better, before finally getting to to MDE shells at the end of the series.

Solid shell gatlings have remained the mainstay of the UN Spacy's valkyries for one key reasons: Rate of Fire. Simply, KE gatlings have a higher rate of fire than enegry guns; while the VF-27's beam rifle has a rather respectable rate of fire for an energy weapon, the VF-25 still outstrips it in one crucial way: each glowing shot fired by a VF-25 is a tracer shell. With the assumption that the VF-25 uses the standard US mix of 1:4 (1 tracer for every 4 live shells), the VF-25 is thus putting out a higher rate of fire compared to the Quead-Rea or the VF-27. (The figures become much worse if one recalls that Kawamori is a great Tomcat fan, and that Cold War tomcats used mixes of 1:7.)

[grylsyjaeger]

I just finished watching Frontier and I'm captivated by the VF-25.

Words cannot express the awesome.

[justavisitor]

@Thanks Wild Goose for the detailed explanation!!!!

[Urei]

Originally Posted by fallschirmjager

I just finished watching Frontier and I'm captivated by the VF-25.

Words cannot express the awesome.

Welcome aboard, I think the same

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Tak

Oh sure, we know GN technology is another animal, just as G00 is another animal. But the similarity is striking. What results in an overdose of GN particles? <SPOILER SNIPPED>

Grace in Macross Frontier on the other hand, sought to control fold waves via the Vajra due to the availability of their fold quartz. If she would have succeeded, she could benefit from what I stated prior.

- Tak

The GN technology uses different kinds of photons and subphotons to do almost anything. For example the GN thursters probably works with light pressure and the GN beams resembles the lasers a lot. And the GN particles have some kind of connection to the ultimate force.
Maybe the quantumisation looks similar to warping, but I bet it's more like the "conventional" way of teleport and not warping( instant change of place or non 3D travel).
I may change my statement if they reveal some of the technology behind the fold drive.

[Tak]

You are arguing a different thing entirely. We are not talking about GN technology on powering engines, we were actually talking about how GN particles can affect someone's psychology, which in a way is very similar to the result of manipulating fold quartz.

- Tak

[willyvereb]

The fold quartz is no other thing than fold amplifier.Except some rare individuals the fold quartz can only link people with the use of cybernetic implants. While the QBW reading is an ability and the high conteration of purified GNP can produce similar effects. But the thing I spoke of was about the Gundam vs Macross tech. I mean the GN tech is something I think the technology of the age of Macross Frointier can't reproduce currently.

[Tak]

Bobby described the potentials of fold quartz in one episode, stating that it has the ability to read the minds of every individual, and link them into one consciousness like the Vajra. Except for the humans, there will be one dominating consciousness, effectively rendering that individual (in this case, Grace) as a god amongst men. This is actually quite similar to the concept of GN particles.

Of course, being able to fold freely in space is an added bonus.

On the other hand, Macross technology has no need for GN particles because the latter does not amount to much. It does not assist in braving fold disruption nor does it help to boost the fold engines of what humanity currently possess. All in all, while it may be useful in Gundam, its probably utterly worthless in Macross.

- Tak

[willyvereb]

I think he meant the implants amplified with fold quartzs. Maybe I have to rewatch ep 24 then. According to my knownledge the fold quartz is only effective as though trasmitting material if it used as an amplifier in a special cybernetic implant or if it's used by a "vajra-mediator"(Ranka, Sheryl). In the later case the singer must have some kind of emotional connection to the other she's trasmitting the "message". The cybernetic implants could work in two probable ways. It may mimic the ability of the "vajra-mediators" in a more reliable way(but I doubt it because all of the fairy projects were faliures). The second way is a much more "simple". The implant actually transforms the nerve impulses to data and send it. In that case the fold quartz only works to make the transfer of data from the sender to the reciever instant.
Anyway I think GNP works in a different way. Both has it's advantages and disadvantages.
And I think the GNP actually has a relatively good use for the macross-era: Stealth. GN particles can disturb the electromagnetic weaves(light, radar, microweave, infrared etc...) thus render any kind of(even visual) detection much harder or impossible. Not to mention that the GN thursters maybe much more realible and may faster then the thermonuclear ones and the (true) GN drives have a relatively cheap maintance cost(and may never run out of fuel or power). Probably the GN beam weapons are more realible and even cheaper than the regular ones after the technology is well-developed(because the Federation's special Tierens use them instead of the regular ones)
And the GN-enchanced armour probably has a better protection than the energy-converting armour(especially if the power supply is not an issue)
Anyways it would be hillarious if we actually see a Gundam 00/macross crossover mech.
*imagines Kyrios's gerwalk mode* I think I have to correct something: REALLY hillarious.
EDIT: Thank you, 4Tran for moving the posts into the right topic.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Anyway I think GNP works in a different way. Both has it's advantages and disadvantages.
And I think the GNP actually has a relatively good use for the macross-era: Stealth. GN particles can disturb the electromagnetic weaves(light, radar, microweave, infrared etc...) thus render any kind of(even visual) detection much harder or impossible.

Macross vessels and variable fighters rely more on their sensor packages because they are very capable against all sort of jamming, ECM, interference and so forth. They already have both passive and active stealth technologies to make themselves harder to spot. Their capabilities are so great at this that they abandoned most passive technologies in newer equipment.

Here's how simply ridiculous the most up-to-date sensor packages are:

fold communication guidance system; AP-SF-01+ Aegis Pack Custom with radome and ELINT hardware (improved for anti-Vajra use by L.A.I. Corporation using fold quartz, detects targets using fold waves instead of electromagnetic waves, can identify up to 2,048 targets simultaneously and guide long to medium-range missiles at 128 targets at the same time, controls a maximum of 6 x QF-4000 Ghost-series unmanned fighters without lag time at long distances using fold waves).

Such a package would laugh at the kind of stealth that GN particles could provide.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Not to mention that the GN thursters maybe much more realible and may faster then the thermonuclear ones and the (true) GN drives have a relatively cheap maintance cost(and may never run out of fuel or power).

The venerable VF-1 already had a twin powerplant producing 1300MW. The newest ones for VF-25 and 27 would be some thirty times as powerful.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Probably the GN beam weapons are more realible and even cheaper than the regular ones after the technology is well-developed(because the Federation's special Tierens use them instead of the regular ones)

The GN beam weapons would have a hard time keeping up with MDE ammunition in terms of raw output, and if Macross militaries needed to break out the really big guns, they'd have reaction and MDE missiles at their disposal.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Anyways it would be hillarious if we actually see a Gundam 00/macross crossover mech.
*imagines Kyrios's gerwalk mode* I think I have to correct something: REALLY hillarious.

It'd really be one-sided to be all that interesting. Macross, as of 2059, is a much, much larger universe and it's technology is vastly more advanced in all aspects than we've seen of Gundam 00 (please correct me if anyone can think of an exception - use spoiler tags as appropriate). The only thing that I can see is NUN scientists learning about 2312 CE technology, and using some of those ideas to improve their designs, but that's about it.

It really shouldn't be a surprise though as the scale and scope of the two shows is vastly different.

For Gundam 00, a force of 100 mobile suits and their support vessels constitute the majority of a vast and powerful military force. In SDF Macross, Boldolze's 4,000,000-strong fleet would have been a million times larger.

The pinnacle of engineering in Gundam 00 is the solar ring and power system. The pinnacle in Macross is a ship a third the size of the Moon. The NUN would have scoffed at the idea of having to build such a ring in the first place.

In 2312 CE, human expansion has reached Jupiter, and a trip from the Earth to there would take months, if not a year. Such a trip would obviously require a specialized vessel. As of Macross 2059 CE, humanity has traveled over one-third of the way to the center of the galaxy, and trips of a dozen light-years are considered relatively trivial, taking only a few minutes under most circumstances. This can be done with fold drives that can be attached to any fighter/ship large enough to carry a passenger.

Gundam 00 (and all Gundam shows really) are meant to use a scale that's intuitive to understand, and where individual actions make all the difference and where time is usually measured in decades. Hence its technologies and capabilities are relatively modest. Macross, on the other hand, is supposed to have an extremely large scope; so big that one show can only touch on a small portion of the whole, where vast fleets, vast empires, and vast amounts of time are the units of measure. If you want to represent the two universes consistently with the way they're portrayed, then it can't be anything but an extremely one-sided crossover.

[Tak]

Well, 4tran beat me to it. He pretty much answered all the questions already.

On the other hand, it must be noted that even humanity in Macross constitute only a minor dent to the affairs of the galaxy. Its enemies (and there are many) still hold a vast, but unexplored (by humanity) portions of the galaxy.

The first enemies encountered by humanity were the Zentradi, and although the first fleet was scattered (but not completely beaten), there are still 2,000 such fleets lurking around the galaxy. Had the Zents not been busy pursuing their more dreaded enemies, humanity would have been crushed, easily. After all, while humanity have achieved in building colonies 1/3 the size of the moon, they are still facing enemies who can construct battle-stations the size of a friggin planet.

But at the end, this is a contest between apples & oranges, really.

- Tak (On the other hand, if you want a crossover, there is always Super Robot Wars)

[willyvereb]

Well, the Gundam franchises have some areas where they have the upper hand, but generally you're right.
The only think I don't like about Macross technology is the lack of explanation of the technologies itselves like the fold drive, pinpoint barrier, plasma weapons, energy-converting armor, thermonuclear reactor and even the reaction weaponry. Perhaps the Macross franchise has a greatly detailed info about the Valkyres' abilities and designs, but it's somewhat funny we have no clue how they manage to move them for example(I don't know how they move the VF frames because using just the old hydraulics won't do it that fast and precisely).
I know that the reason why Gundam shows has so detailed information about those fictional technologies dates back to the days of old Gundam fandom, but still I miss it somehow.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

I know that the reason why Gundam shows has so detailed information about those fictional technologies dates back to the days of old Gundam fandom, but still I miss it somehow.

Well, here is the thing about explaining technology in-verse.

Old Gundam might have done it back in the 70s heyday, but it does less and less now to the point where a detailed explanation is a lost art. By the time of SEED, there were very little of such explanation left to pass around.

On the other hand, when people are familiar with a technology long enough, do we need explanations? When you drive a car, use the microwave, or browse the internet... etc. how often do you ask how these things work?

No, because we have taken these technologies for granted.

And quite frankly, I find in-verse explanations of technologies kind of silly sometimes, because it would seem as if the people using them just barely discovered their capabilities.

- Tak

[willyvereb]

Yeah, like I think there's twice as much applications of GN technology as the show uses.
Maybe the minovsky thery is somehow different(but it had more than 30 years to perfect itself). Explaining the new technology's grounds in detail makes it seem plausible and not just simply magical. It's similar if we compare Zeta transformations with macross plus transformations. The difference is the detail. For example I am curious about the mechanics of the pinpoint barrier's force field. Or about the Energy-converting armor(is it similar to the charged armor? or something else?). If it done well it helps to make the story and all more believable(in a technological way).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Well, the Gundam franchises have some areas where they have the upper hand, but generally you're right.

You're still way overstating Gundam shows' case. While there are some technologies that can compare favorably with Macross, it's a bit like saying that there are some things that Jamaica can do that the U.S. cannot. It's a true enough statement, but the disparity is absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

The only think I don't like about Macross technology is the lack of explanation of the technologies itselves like the fold drive, pinpoint barrier, plasma weapons, energy-converting armor, thermonuclear reactor and even the reaction weaponry. Perhaps the Macross franchise has a greatly detailed info about the Valkyres' abilities and designs, but it's somewhat funny we have no clue how they manage to move them for example(I don't know how they move the VF frames because using just the old hydraulics won't do it that fast and precisely).

Most of the key information on how these technologies work can be found in the shows themselves, and much of the rest of the useful data can be found in the Macross Chronicles: here's the link to the discussion page at MacrossWorld: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/inde...howtopic=28072.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

I know that the reason why Gundam shows has so detailed information about those fictional technologies dates back to the days of old Gundam fandom, but still I miss it somehow.

Correction: UC Gundam and Gundam 00 have very detailed information about their respective fictional technologies. However, the difference between this and the way Macross (or more accurately, Kawamori) handles things is a matter of difference in philosophy about how to deal with technology. As far as the Gundam universes that we're talking about is concerned, technology is an ends unto itself, and so the focus is on constantly coming up with new ideas and explanations, and scientific-sounding words and so on for all of that. For Kawamori, technology is just a tool, and the importance is in what role that tool is supposed to play, how it functions in conjunction with other technologies, and how well it performs its role. Thus the contrast is that the Gundam 00 technologies is a lot more whiz-bam, but is full of one-off technologies, while Macross techonologies have much more of a in-use flavor, and that once they're shown to be effective, they'll remain in the inventory until something better comes along.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Maybe the minovsky thery is somehow different(but it had more than 30 years to perfect itself). Explaining the new technology's grounds in detail makes it seem plausible and not just simply magical.

Most of the time, it's just extra technobabble that doesn't make anything look more plausible. Look at it this way, Star Trek has scads and scads of detail about all of its techonological solutions, but does that accord it any realism? Should it accord it any realism? Technically, this does largely come down to the viewer's background, but I happen to despise technobabble - I find that it reeks of pretension and inauthenticity.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

For example I am curious about the mechanics of the pinpoint barrier's force field. Or about the Energy-converting armor(is it similar to the charged armor? or something else?). If it done well it helps to make the story and all more believable(in a technological way).

Both of these technologies are presented well enough in the show to determine most of their salient capabilities. What more than that do you really need?