Macross "Canon"

[Tak]

Of all the characters/races in canon, the Zentradi received the most changes:

SDF: Zentradi are giant humanoids with different skin pigments and hair color.

DYRL: Zentradi are bold, top-tier Zentradis have enlarged brains. Boldozza is basically a giant floating brain with tentacles.

Macross 7: Zetradi has hair again! Top-tier Zents still have enlarged brains. As an added bonus, they now sport elven ears.

Macross Frontier: Changes from 7 is transferred. In addition, skin pigments are closer to that of humans, except those who dwell in space.

One thing is consistent: They live a very, very long time...

- Tak

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

With what we got so far, it seems that Kawamori updated his own opinion over the span of more of a decade. Given that most people evolve themselves in half that timespan in such a way that they think that their former selves were complete retards, I put more credence in the last information we have than in an interview from a decade+ ago.

Not when he's spent that entire time creating works according to that pov. Seriously, where do you think the light novel author's comment comes from? Most people would just say that it's an adaptation and be done with it.

I'd also ask what in the world you mean by 'troll' because you seem to throw that word around a lot without really specifying much, but if it's going to become an annoyingly long spiel, I'd rather you not answer if that's ok. (no time! ) If you haven't seen that many interviews, then it's more your problem than his, because there are A LOT of interesting interviews. Until you've read more of them, I personally don't think you have a right to judge...and whether you can read them or not is entirely up to you, even if it takes you 10 years or more.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

Not when he's spent that entire time creating works according to that pov. Seriously, where do you think the light novel author's comment comes from? Most people would just say that it's an adaptation and be done with it.

I'd also ask what in the world you mean by 'troll' because you seem to throw that word around a lot without really specifying much, but if it's going to become an annoyingly long spiel, I'd rather you not answer if that's ok. (no time! ) If you haven't seen that many interviews, then it's more your problem than his, because there are A LOT of interesting interviews. Until you've read more of them, I personally don't think you have a right to judge...and whether you can read them or not is entirely up to you, even if it takes you 10 years or more.

I have my right to judge on the information I have. It's called free speech.

[Tak]

Maggy, Kawamori doesn't troll when it comes to canon. He just does things on a whim because he feels like it. Thats just... what he does, all the time.

- Tak

[karice67]

I wasn't intending to bring this up in public, but since you're being so insistent...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I have my right to judge on the information I have. It's called free speech.

Even when you use it to defame someone else based on a misunderstanding that you have?

Not that you're the only person this applies to, but it's probably best for you not to try and debate the finer points of interviews originally written in a language you don't understand.

Speaking from experience, the main effect it's got is turning off people who might have something to share otherwise. (Not to mention wasting 'their' time. Do you want to read the Alcatraz story or not? )

[magnuskn]

I honestly don't get why you are taking a dissenting opinion so personally.

Also, calling that "defaming" someone is going over the top quite a bit.

[Yot-chan]

To drag this back on topic, there are definitely several ways to look at the issue of canon.

In interviews, as Karice pointed, Kawamori has always maintained that all versions are different but equally valid (and to add to that, there was an interview in English in an issue of Animag magazine from...1988? 1989? Somewhere around there...where he also uses the WWII analogy).

But there is also the official chronology, established originally in 1994 (when Plus and 7 came out) stating that the Macross TV series is the REAL story, and that DYRL is the "movie within a movie" made in 2031. This chronology was most recently used for the timeline in Macross Chronicle magazine.

(Personally, I find that explanation inadequate on a few different levels, and much prefer Kawamori's "anything goes" take, but that's me.)

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

To drag this back on topic, there are definitely several ways to look at the issue of canon.

In interviews, as Karice pointed, Kawamori has always maintained that all versions are different but equally valid (and to add to that, there was an interview in English in an issue of Animag magazine from...1988? 1989? Somewhere around there...where he also uses the WWII analogy).

But there is also the official chronology, established originally in 1994 (when Plus and 7 came out) stating that the Macross TV series is the REAL story, and that DYRL is the "movie within a movie" made in 2031. This chronology was most recently used for the timeline in Macross Chronicle magazine.

(Personally, I find that explanation inadequate on a few different levels, and much prefer Kawamori's "anything goes" take, but that's me.)

Wasn't the movie within a movie as you say the DYRL that we watched is not necessarily the DYRL movie in-universe?

There certainly is a DYRL movie given Sally's comment in M7 seeing the ruins on Rax and Emilia's little story of wanting to be singer in M7 Galaxy is Calling Me.

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by karice67

I'd also ask what in the world you mean by 'troll' because you seem to throw that word around a lot without really specifying much, but if it's going to become an annoyingly long spiel, I'd rather you not answer if that's ok. (no time! ) If you haven't seen that many interviews, then it's more your problem than his, because there are A LOT of interesting interviews. Until you've read more of them, I personally don't think you have a right to judge...and whether you can read them or not is entirely up to you, even if it takes you 10 years or more.

I knew it would come down to this, the typical "I have read more articles/interviews/whatever than you and I speak japanese and you don't, so you can't give your opinion".

If people that don't speak japanese or have not read X number of interviews don't have the right to judge or give an opinion then, what's the point of this thread? or is this a private thread where just you, Yot-Chan and Tak (and maybe others that I'm forgetting ) can post and share your views?
The fact that your opinion is a more informed one does not make it indisputable or that everyone will agree with it.

...

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I honestly don't get why you are taking a dissenting opinion so personally.

Also, calling that "defaming" someone is going over the top quite a bit.

Spoiler for for length:

Look, it's one thing to say "I don't agree with his approach" and another to say "he has contradicted himself" / "he's just trolling us". (As for 'defaming', based on how the word 'troll' has been used in this subforum, I think it's been pretty borderline.) Your opinion that he has changed his mind is fine, what I am challenging is your evidence for it.

As far as I can see, Kawamori may have elaborated on his 'Macross world view' as time has gone by, and he may have changed certain details about design or how he tries to explain his view to people, but he has been fairly consistent with how he has approached Macross Frontier at least.

As of now, I really don't see how he's trolled anyone wrt Frontier, and as far as I can tell, the vast majority of Japanese Macross fans don't think he has either. But, based on two translated interviews - and ignoring all the stuff that hasn't been found or translated yet - (and whatever you and maybe a few others seem to have gotten upset over), and without having actually seen all of Frontier yet, you seem to be heading back to your "troll" thesis.

So, please make it clear that it's you that thinks he is inconsistent/a troll/whatever, based on the limited information you have, and I'll stop calling you out on it.

@Dash

Spoiler for again, for length:

No, that's not what I'm trying to say. (See what I said to magnus above).

I understand that we all have limited information at our disposal, some (much) less than others. What I would like if for SOME of you to recognise that you don't have much to go on.

I've said it before on this forum: the more I've learnt, the more I've realised what I don't know. Conversely, it also means I understand, somewhat, how little most of us here know.

I am fully aware of how little I know about Macross (I only got into this universe properly with Frontier, after all). But I am aware of my own limitations, and I would prefer it if you all showed a bit more recognition of your own as well, especially with regard to the 'evidence' you are basing your opinions on.

It's a fine line between the two - i.e. the "I know more than you do, so STFU" and "do keep in mind that you don't know everything" attitudes. Sure, I can't stop you from thinking that what I'm saying is the former, but to me, that really isn't what I'm trying to do.

======

I'll state it clearly again: I'm NOT trying to force my opinion of canon on you. I haven't even stated what it is in this thread.

What I AM trying to do is make sure there is enough, somewhat trustworthy information on Macross (Frontier) around for everyone to make their own decisions. But it will take a fair amount of time, longer if people keeping picking on the bits and pieces that have been translated so far.

If you'd rather not have all the other information, I'm quite happy to move on to the other series that I want to work on.

======

...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

[Look, it's one thing to say "I don't agree with his approach" and another to say "he has contradicted himself" / "he's just trolling us". (As for 'defaming', based on how the word 'troll' has been used in this subforum, I think it's been pretty borderline.) Your opinion that he has changed his mind is fine, what I am challenging is your evidence for it.

As far as I can see, Kawamori may have elaborated on his 'Macross world view' as time has gone by, and he may have changed certain details about design or how he tries to explain his view to people, but he has been fairly consistent with how he has approached Macross Frontier at least.

As of now, I really don't see how he's trolled anyone wrt Frontier, and as far as I can tell, the vast majority of Japanese Macross fans don't think he has either. But, based on two translated interviews - and ignoring all the stuff that hasn't been found or translated yet - (and whatever you and maybe a few others seem to have gotten upset over), and without having actually seen all of Frontier yet, you seem to be heading back to your "troll" thesis.

So, please make it clear that it's you that thinks he is inconsistent/a troll/whatever, based on the limited information you have, and I'll stop calling you out on it.

Look, karice, I appreciate the effort you are going to. But essentially you are telling me to shut up ( and very explicitly so in the way which Dash Hunter pointed out, specifically in your post from yesterday with the microscope writing. ), but that won't happen. If I choose to comment on a topic with the information I have, I will do so.

I can of course change my opinion later on, but I am going to say what I want when I want.

As for the "Kawamori=Troll" bit, I don't care in the slightest if the "majority of Japanese" think it was fine and dandy, because I felt trolled, both by the TV series and movie endings. And from other Kawamori series endings, especially Escaflowne. My definition of his audience trolling is not related to the particular topic of Macross canon, btw., but just to how he chooses to end series of his. And I'm going to keep saying that even if it makes Yot jump up and down in consternation, as I haven't seen the series in which he apparently went for the "standard" endings.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You don't produce enough sparks, bub. Now, those two...

Yeah, not really. With Yotti at least there's some emotional investment in butting heads every once in a while. Here I am mostly bewildered that karice apparently has a syndrome of "No other opinion allowed beside my own". I'm perfectly willing to drop the topic, but not if karice comes up with ever more escalating rhetoric.

[karice67]

Could you at least read carefully?

I don't care if you give your opinion. But please make sure it's represented as your opinion, e.g. rather than just "(he) likes to blatantly troll his audience", qualify it. (Though you aren't the only one who's done this in this forum.)

As another example, in your first post, you've said that Kawamori made a statement about how they "are parallel worlds". He hasn't. He said that "it doesn't matter if they're (considered to be) parallel worlds" (slightly more literal this time - do I have to go into the finer points of why I included 'you' as the omitted subject in the first translation?). So, in your opinion, he's said that they "are parallel worlds".

Question and criticise my translation if you like, but please don't twist things around to suit your thesis.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

Could you at least read carefully?

I don't care if you give your opinion. But please make sure it's represented as your opinion, e.g. rather than just "(he) likes to blatantly troll his audience", qualify it. (Though you aren't the only one who's done this in this forum.)

As another example, in your first post, you've said that Kawamori made a statement about how they "are parallel worlds". He hasn't. He said that "it doesn't matter if they're (considered to be) parallel worlds" (slightly more literal this time - do I have to go into the finer points of why I included 'you' as the omitted subject in the first translation?). So, in your opinion, he's said that they "are parallel worlds".

Question and criticise my translation if you like, but please don't twist things around to suit your thesis.

Oh, boy. Do I have to put "IMO" into anything now? I'm doing that quite more than most people anyway. Yeah, it's "IMO". EVERYTHING I say is "IMO", unless I specifically point out that it is based on unsurmountable facts, which I tend to do when I have factual backing.

Could you now please knock it off with singling me out?

And the quote by Kawamori ( as posted by yourself ) is: "To be frank, I wouldn't mind if you take them as parallel worlds." Which says to me at least that he is fine with it either way, i.e. doesn't have a firm opinion on canon. Which is basically what Tak said and I think it's probably the right interpretation.

[cheesie]

Okay.

@maggie: You've made it abundantly clear your protective stance over your 'free speech' rights, however, this isn't the appropriate time to pull that out - yes, this is a forum, and yes, you are allowed to throw anything out there.

With that said? Why not just make the effort to get along with everyone and offer some encouraging support while the translators finish their job and then we can get around to discussing things. I'm not pointing to just you, I'm referring to everyone, including those that jump in mid-way and fuel it. All of you don't have to sing 'Kumbaya' to one another, but do make at least an effort to get along, even if it calls for you to stop trying to get the upper hand. As karice said, wait for the translations to finish, and we could at least respect that, given how she IS taking her own time to do this for us after all. One thing I absolutely hate more than pointless discussions like this is people letting them get so out of hand that they just can't see how it achieves nothing except sucking out all the fun and love for everyone.

Because the last few posts have contributed nothing whatsoever to the thread, I am going to request for Crow to delete them and then we can post something that won't make everyone's eyes roll up their heads. God bless all.

[karice67]

Updated the 3rd post with the first version of the chronology.

Next update will probably be after the 2nd movie's subs are out, because it's a related 'point'.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Okay.

@maggie: You've made it abundantly clear your protective stance over your 'free speech' rights, however, this isn't the appropriate time to pull that out - yes, this is a forum, and yes, you are allowed to throw anything out there.

With that said? Why not just make the effort to get along with everyone and offer some encouraging support while the translators finish their job and then we can get around to discussing things. I'm not pointing to just you, I'm referring to everyone, including those that jump in mid-way and fuel it. All of you don't have to sing 'Kumbaya' to one another, but do make at least an effort to get along, even if it calls for you to stop trying to get the upper hand. As karice said, wait for the translations to finish, and we could at least respect that, given how she IS taking her own time to do this for us after all. One thing I absolutely hate more than pointless discussions like this is people letting them get so out of hand that they just can't see how it achieves nothing except sucking out all the fun and love for everyone.

Because the last few posts have contributed nothing whatsoever to the thread, I am going to request for Crow to delete them and then we can post something that won't make everyone's eyes roll up their heads. God bless all.

Works fine by me. And I'm not trying to get "the upper hand" here. I'm putting out my interpretation and it's not my fault if karice cannot let that simply stand.

[cheesie]

@maggie: Good to hear. That last bit? Drop it.

I'm compiling all other interviews/info that may or may not fit in, and we're gonna see how to reconcile these two parts together. I will smack anyone in the face who wants to fill this thread with further spam and you can bet no one else will take it either. It is now 1.16 am in Australia time, and I am going to bed. Peace out.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And I'm going to keep saying that even if it makes Yot jump up and down in consternation...

Considering that I've said nothing on this topic in quite a while, and wasn't about to start here, could you now please knock it off with singling me out?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Could you now please knock it off with singling me out?

Oh. Instant karma, huh?

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Could you now please knock it off with singling me out?

Gee, I thought I was the one always "singled out," guess someone else can take the ball and chain now.

-

Back on topic, I think that when it comes to "Kawamori=Troll," to a lot of people, they see it that way. So when it comes to opinions, we all start to have that argument. Granted, a lot of endings are the same old thing of lovers being separated, big death battle, the hero vanishing (or dying); and someone left behind to clean up the mess. So, that being said (for Escaflowne and Macross alone) makes people think he's a "troll."

But that's just my own opinion.

And magnuskn, you are allowed to view Kawamori as a troll, but others may not see him as such. You have to respect their opinion as well.

[Tak]

You guys have to excuse my good buddy and friend, Maggy, for a second. He is having a uniquely Prussian moment...

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Alto's Jesus powers in the final battle of SnT reminded me too much of Ranka's Jesus scene in the series. Not a good troll, Kawamori. And Alto doesn't get killed... not realistic.

The green is strong with this one...

If Alto had proclaimed his love for Ranka at the last scene, would you still call it not realistic?

Other than that, why should Alto get killed? He was in no position to be.

- Tak