2011-01-09, 19:35 | Link #861 |
Mmmm....
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Yasaburo is an interesting character, because you'd think it would be in his interest (in terms of the succession) if Alto never came back. Alto is #1 son and bound to inherit if he returned, but Yasuburo would presumably inherit if Alto remained estranged from his father...
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2011-01-09, 21:03 | Link #862 | |
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But just to point out on how Yasaburo may not be totally wrong. Remember Alto's first practice match in the episode when he met Klan Klan, right after Alto made a successful hit, he posed with his Valkyrie. Or more specifically he did the pose that came from the Sakura-hime play. Then again in episode 10 Alto remembers and recites his father's advice on acting, and in the very same episode Alto has not forgotten how to act. But you are right about Sheryl and Ranka in the end it is Alto's birthday. It is his day not Ranka's. So who is anyone to expect Sheryl to not give Alto a present that he really does want, because the shy girl who has a crush on him and yet can't even be bothered to try to get to know him wants him to eat her bitter cookies and attend her concert? Keep in mind that said shy girl isn't even his girlfriend, hell Sheryl is more close to Alto than Ranka is at this point (and it continues to stay this way). I mean I were Alto I'd be upset is my friend decided to hold back from giving me a once in a lifetime awesome gift that I've always wanted, because another friend wants me to attend her first concert. I probably wouldn't talk to either of them for a while, if that ever happened. |
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2011-01-10, 03:14 | Link #863 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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Right, now that I've seen 11, I'm going to have to say that my understanding of Alto hasn't changed much at all.
Going back to this... Quote:
Perhaps I shouldn't call it 'acting', because in a sense, it's part of who he is. Looking back at what Kawamori said in that commentary about "becoming a role", I'd argue that how we see Alto behave - e.g. how he wears his uniform, how he sits, how he reacts to certain provocations etc - could be what he decided to do at some point to contrast with how he looks, because he hates being mistaken for a girl. His behaviour may be part of him, but it's also something that he consciously decided to do (because that was not how he was brought up to behave). So I'd hazard a guess that one reason Alto can't outrightly deny Yasaburo's accusation in episode 11 is because he HAS consciously approached some things in his life as he would a role, and thus really doesn't know, as Kawamori once said, "how far his true feelings go". Spoiler for source of quote:
---- And this would be why I don't try to read Alto just from what he says, or even take what he says at face value. If he doesn't even know how far his true feelings go, then he can't express them accurately. At least at this point in the series - not entirely sure yet if I'll keep thinking this way as we approach the end.
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2011-01-10, 05:08 | Link #864 |
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I still see a big difference at what Yasaburo thinks Alto is doing ( being a fake and acting out a stereotypical role ) to what Alto is doing ( discovering who he really is, while sometimes putting up fronts to escape from some of the constant teasing Michael does ).
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2011-01-10, 09:16 | Link #865 | |
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For all we know at the beginning of the series Alto may have been a sensitive person who did care about a lot of things, a stark difference from his current persona. By the way though the way is behaving is like that of a stereotypical male who doesn't care about most things, and a pilot who joined the military (or SMS but its pretty much the same thing in the tv series) in order to protect something. Last edited by wisteria233; 2011-01-10 at 09:37. |
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2011-01-10, 09:42 | Link #866 | ||
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@magnus
Just going back to this... Quote:
Spoiler for string of quotes:
What I said about agreeing with Yasaburo was in response to you saying that Dex was just reciting what he said in episode 11. Now that I've seen the episode, I take that back since, in my opinion, Dex WASN'T saying the same thing as Yasaburo. I agree with Dex in that Alto can't separate acting from who he is, (but) in the sense of how Swampstorm put it here. And as noted in previous posts, it's based NOT on what Yasaburo said, but rather on what Kawamori has said about Alto. (Though Dex, I think I may have to disagree with you on the idea that Alto despises acting per se. I have my reasons, but I'm trying to figure out first whether he ever voices how he feels about acting in the series...) ====== @magnus again As for what Yasaburo actually says and why I think you're dismissing it too quickly... Quote:
Still doesn't stop me from questioning what Alto says are his motivations though, since we can see that he isn't sure either. The only thing I'm hundred percent sure of is that he wants to fly.
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2011-01-10, 12:32 | Link #869 | ||
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I do not see the act of him getting under Altos skin as him having a greater knowledge of Altos true motivations, but rather as his obvious intentions upsetting Alto, who is stuck on the horns of a dilemma: He has forsaken his family for his personal freedom, yet his father has gotten sick enough to be mostly out of comission ( although the show undercuts this somewhat later with their show of Ranzo doing classes ). He has to decide if he wants to return to his family, which would mean abandoning his own plans for his life to please his father. This alone provides enough emotional distress to account for Alto getting so upset during his conversation with Yasaburo. Tellingly, when we later cut to Alto contemplating the three presents offered to him, he is not thinking anymore about the assertions of fakeness from Yasaburo, but rather about the offer to return to his family. Quote:
Later on in the series, Alto himself presents himself as someone who deceived himself earlier, when he used protecting Ranka as a motivation to join SMS; he did so, by his own words ( which I think were quite sincere ), to disguise his desire to protect Frontier. We never see him later on seriously considering a return to his household as an full-time actor. He does conciliate his past with his present in episode 25, but he never wavers from his chosen course during the series. We also never see him doubting his decision to become a pilot. Not. Once. As such, it seems laughable to me that Yasaburo tries to convince him here that he is only acting out to be rebellious, when we later can see that he never even considers anymore another course of life for himself than as a protector of his home and a pilot. That alone tells me that he is sincere in his intentions and that Yasaburo was completely and utterly full of shit during their conversation in this episode. The question remaining for me here is not if Alto is the actor, but if Yasaburo is, by either doing a misguided appeal to Alto based on his false interpretation of Altos motivations OR by maliciously trying to mindfuck Alto into going back home and abandoning his own dreams for life.
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2011-01-10, 13:32 | Link #870 | ||
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Also Yasaburo never says anything about Alto returning to Kabuki he merely tells Alto that he's glad Alto didn't give up acting and to go see his father. He never talks down Alto's dream to become a pilot he merely talks down his way of going about it, which actually works more in with what Swampstorm said. When does Yasaburo ever in this episode talk down Alto's dream to be a pilot itself? Because he's more talking down the way Alto is behaving than what he wants to do. |
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2011-01-10, 14:08 | Link #871 | |
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And that also has nothing to do with my assertion that Alto was living his honest dream about who he was being, instead of just acting the rebellious youth, as Yasaburo asserts. Look at farther episodes, tell me where Alto is even once questioning his current way in life, unless it is Yasaburo stirring the pot and trying to plant doubts.
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2011-01-10, 14:56 | Link #872 | |
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Even when Yasaburo takes Sheryl to force Alto to go back home, did Alto return to Kabuki? or did he return to being a pilot? Also to point something that you may not have taken into account with Alto refusing his role as Ranzo's heir Yasaburo is now the inheritor of the dojo. If Alto returned to Kabuki (read: not just return home, he has to return to the practice of the dojo) then Yasaburo would lose out. However, Alto is still Ranzo's child, and if you're teacher was sick and had an estranged child that you have contact with, and he doesn't want to inherit the dojo (meaning your position is safe anyway) then wouldn't you at least want your master to see their only child, before its too late. Plus once Alto did finally return to his home, wasn't he more confident after wards? Keep in mind that Yasaburo set that up, whose to say that wasn't what he was after in the first place? Yasaburo never said that Alto didn't want to be a pilot, heck he never even implied it. All he spoke of was Alto's behavior not what Alto possible inheritance to the dojo. Also Yasaburo is right when he said that Alto never really did give up acting, while citing his role as a stunt double as an example, that in and of itself is a type of acting. And as shown from episode 10 Alto doesn't mind acting just as long as it isn't a female role. Your putting in words and meanings that aren't even there or hinted at, by either of the characters. Doing stunts and playing an extra yes it is acting, but it is different from Kabuki. In fact if Yasaburo was any other family member of Alto's how would you look at the same scene with the same conversation, which keep in mind Alto is thinking about? |
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2011-01-10, 15:56 | Link #873 | |||
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2.) Ranzo accepting that Altos passion is flying only happens in episode 24, when we get his short scene of accepting it. It is made quite clear from episode 4 that at this point he only sees the Kabuki actor in Alto and is not accepting that Alto chose his own path. 3.) Given that at this point Ranzo is unaccepting of Altos chosen path and that Yasaburo also wants Alto to return to acting, it is clear that both do not see his chosen vocation as a pilot as something which they need to accept and respect. They want to impose their vision of Altos future on him, without his opinion being taken into account. This is why Yasaburo constantly tries to manipulate Alto, by calling Altos motives into doubt. Quote:
Maybe you could call him altruistic in the sense that he doesn't want to get the inheritance and responsibility of Ranzo and that he simply sees Alto as the better candidate, but until Altos refusal to come back opens his eyes, it seems very clear to me that he isn't taking Altos choice to be a pilot seriously and just thinks that Alto is "acting a cheap role". Which, of course, comes back to the main topic of our discussion, that Yasaburo is full of shit when he says that, because his motives are suspect and his information faulty. Quote:
Which other family member of Alto would that actually be? He only has his father and I wouldn't view the conversation any different then, given that his father was just as highly biased as Yasaburo was.
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2011-01-10, 17:32 | Link #874 | |||
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2. If you were a father ( a proud man) and you're only son (and only child mind you) ran away from home, not that long after your wife died. Then you see him sometime later on, but he makes no effort to go talk to you. How would you feel? upset? angry? Take that into account and then look again at Ranzo's reaction to seeing Alto after so long. 3. How do we know that Ranzo unaccepting of Alto's chosen path? Alto hasn't spoken to him yet. In fact we've never once heard Ranzo speak on the subject, at all until episode 24. In other words you're drawing your own conclusion without a base. Quote:
Something to also keep in mind is Alto's position as a stunt pilot at the beginning of the series, a role which Alto doesn't give up, even after he joins SMS. In fact he seemingly continues this role up until, episode 22, after which he joins the military to protect Frontier. Remember that Alto was accused of showing off by posing when he first joined SMS. Alto is never really does stop performing until the later episodes when sh*t hits the fan, and Alto can finally admit to himself that he does care about Frontier, the very same place he loathed at the beginning of the series. We can't very well say that Alto in the later episodes is the same Alto at the beginning of the series, when their behavior and motivations are different. Its still way too early in the series to say that Alto has his motivations straight, as his words to not line up with his actions. Its not that Yasaburo says that Alto should return to acting it's that he already has, despite Alto saying differently. He was just pointing out the truth, and again if there wasn't a ring of truth to it then why was Alto thinking about it? Things don't get under your skin unless they are somewhat true, and Alto is still thinking about it hours later. Now stop and tell me have you ever mulled over something that someone has said all day, when it wasn't true? If something is not true you usually forget about in one or two hours but not the whole day, and especially not so seriously. No matter how you try to water that down it is suspicious. And yes Alto may not truly know himself fully yet (or until the later episodes at least), but he may know himself enough to know when he his treating something like a roll. So no I wouldn't say that one should throw out the conservation as just Yasaburo being conniving because it was Alto who was shown mulling over the conversation, long after it happened not Yasaburo. On that note I'm merely pointing out the various reasons why Yasaburo would want Alto to talk to Ranzo, which is gamble itself (albeit not a very good one). Quote:
Exactly what it says if any other family member who used the same words, would you ignore their words as well? |
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2011-01-10, 19:39 | Link #875 | ||
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@magnus
Regarding the material you've brought up from later episodes. Before my last post, I did go off to look at some of those conversations, e.g. the one with Klan in 23, and yes, I still don't take everything Alto says just at face value, because I think there are some things I have to interpret there to get to what I think his motivations are at that point. But I'm not going to talk about it til we get there. Unlike you, I see Yasaburo as someone who really believes the idea that's bothering Alto here, i.e. 'that acting really is something that's in one's blood, so it's something that Alto can't get rid of and that Yasaburo can't obtain.' As I said before, Alto resolves this because of something that happens next episode, but it will bother Yasaburo for the rest of the series. ==== @wisteria Personally, I think Yasaburo got under Alto's skin for reasons other than what you stated. I don't know if this will change how you interpret the scene, but Yasaburo was actually talking about Alto inheriting the Ranzou name, i.e. succeeding Ranzou as the head of the family line, not just about reconciliation. Quote:
=> lit. "reverse your disinheritance" (or 'reinstate your inheritance') That's why Ranzou asked Yasaburo about the 'succession of the name' at the end of the episode.
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2011-01-11, 00:36 | Link #877 | |
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@Berlin no reason why you can't jump in now. |
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2011-01-11, 01:31 | Link #878 | |
Alto x Ranka :)
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About your disagreement, I did say "at that point" in the series Going by how he reacted to acting in the movie in episode 10, it was apparent that he wasn't exactly fond of the idea. Maybe despise is too strong a word?
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2011-01-11, 02:59 | Link #879 | |||||
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And doing stunt-work is not acting per se. It was a flying gig where he could show off his talents as a EX-Gear pilot, not his acting. And, yes, being brow-beaten by your friends into accepting an acting gig counts as "under duress" by me. Refusing an order by a military organization also would not be realistically feasible. If Ozma gives that order, Alto has to comply. Quote:
As for episode 23, good enough. I am pretty sure that he is very genuine at that point, but let's wait until we get there to go into the details.
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2011-01-11, 09:09 | Link #880 | ||||
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It is performing, and yes stunt work is a type of acting, and yes you do have to have knowledge over whatever you are doing a stunt of, but that is also true for acting. Because if you want to become a role you have to know something about it first. Except they didn't brow-beat him they said what they said and after said no they left it alone. I don't really consider someone saying "come on Alto please just do it you know she'll get extra scenes if you do" to be brow-beating. Especially when all Alto said was that he would not play the role of a female. He never denied the acting gig, just playing of a female. Plus, it was only until later on that Alto jumped at the chance to be Shin. It was Alto's decision at the end of the day. A decision which he made. While I don't really take Alto's word for it at this point, he certainly didn't act like it was anything big, the only time was he was upset was when he thought he would have to play the role of a female. And technically speaking SMS is a mercenary organization, not a military one, but fair enough. Point is Alto doesn't hate acting. But like Swampstorm was saying Alto's biggest adversary is himself, the only thing he is sure about himself at this point in time is the fact that he wants to be a pilot, and that he wants to be able to fly through a real sky. However, the way he is going about it may not be the sincerest route for him, which may be because he doesn't know himself yet, but he may know himself enough to know whether or not what he's doing feels right, though he may deny the reasons for him doing it. But as both myself and Karice67 pointed out it is suspicious that Alto is the one thinking Yasaburo's words, rather than the scene playing out at the beginning of the episode, which took place during the day. We see the flashback at night, meaning that Alto was giving it some serious thought, that is how we are introduced to the conversation. |
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